Faith in Jesus Christ is faith in every word of God

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InSpiritInTruth

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Some believe faith in Jesus Christ is faith alone in the man and only what Jesus did on the cross, which is a very important part of our faith no doubt. But faith in Jesus Christ is much more than just faith in the man, but it is also faith in every word of God.

Because after all Jesus Christ is the very Word of God made flesh; meaning all scripture that is spoken by the Spirit of God, which is the same Spirit of Christ, is also faith in Christ. The reason I bring this up is because some say they believe in Jesus Christ, but yet at the same time they show they don't truly believe in Him because by their own evil works show how they truly deny Him. So what do you believe?

I will start out the conversation with this verse in Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
 

Born_Again

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InSpiritInTruth said:
Some believe faith in Jesus Christ is faith alone in the man and only what Jesus did on the cross, which is a very important part of our faith no doubt. But faith in Jesus Christ is much more than just faith in the man, but it is also faith in every word of God.

Because after all Jesus Christ is the very Word of God made flesh; meaning all scripture that is spoken by the Spirit of God, which is the same Spirit of Christ, is also faith in Christ. The reason I bring this up is because some say they believe in Jesus Christ, but yet at the same time they show they don't truly believe in Him because by their own evil works show how they truly deny Him. So what do you believe?

I will start out the conversation with this verse in Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
It can be said, its one thing to believe in Jesus Christ, but its another thing to say we follow Jesus Christ. So what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ?
 

InSpiritInTruth

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Born_Again said:
It can be said, its one thing to believe in Jesus Christ, but its another thing to say we follow Jesus Christ. So what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ?
God's Word is the way, the truth, and the life. So to follow Jesus Christ is to follow God's words, to keep His commands and do His will, which is to walk in the way the Word of God guides us, like a Shepherd along that strait and narrow path. And abiding in God's Word is also abiding in the Truth and the Life of the True Vine.







John 15:1-14
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
 

StanJ

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As in all statements like this, the basics seem to hold true. However there is a popular adage that goes..."the devil is in the details", so as always we need to test the spirits before we can get behind it. Please feel free to expound on your OP.

Oh, BTW, welcome to CB! :)
 

InSpiritInTruth

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StanJ said:
As in all statements like this, the basics seem to hold true. However there is a popular adage that goes..."the devil is in the details", so as always we need to test the spirits before we can get behind it. Please feel free to expound on your OP.

Oh, BTW, welcome to CB! :)
Thanks for the welcome, and Peace. I know what you might be thinking, as I'm not new to Christian forums. Just came from one where the mere mention of an obedient faith in God's words will get you labeled as a preacher of "works Salvationism" or if you speak out against sin you'll be labeled as a preacher of "sinless perfectionism". But usually these tactics are practiced by those who don't understand the message, or those who are actually living "in sin" while at the same time professing to be "in Christ" which is not possible.

But to expound on the OP these verses here speaks to the heart of the matter....

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

StanJ

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InSpiritInTruth said:
Thanks for the welcome, and Peace. I know what you might be thinking, as I'm not new to Christian forums. Just came from one where the mere mention of an obedient faith in God's words will get you labeled as a preacher of "works Salvationism" or if you speak out against sin you'll be labeled as a preacher of "sinless perfectionism". But usually these tactics are practiced by those who don't understand the message, or those who are actually living "in sin" while at the same time professing to be "in Christ" which is not possible.

But to expound on the OP these verses here speaks to the heart of the matter....

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Nope...just a welcome. You'll find I speak very plainly and clearly.

There are differences that need to be realized/identified when addressing "works", as there are good and bad works, works that are legalistic and works that result from faith.
In fact, the verbal laws that the Pharisees touted were ALL legalistic and not at all what God wanted, as Jesus so often told or admonished them about. Bad works are obvious, so we're left with works that demonstrate our change of heart from being a selfish person to a selfless person, and works that are demonstrated as public good works such as giving to Christmas funds and other overtly beneficial deeds towards the have not's.
 

InSpiritInTruth

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StanJ said:
Nope...just a welcome. You'll find I speak very plainly and clearly.

There are differences that need to be realized/identified when addressing "works", as there are good and bad works, works that are legalistic and works that result from faith.
In fact, the verbal laws that the Pharisees touted were ALL legalistic and not at all what God wanted, as Jesus so often told or admonished them about. Bad works are obvious, so we're left with works that demonstrate our change of heart from being a selfish person to a selfless person, and works that are demonstrated as public good works such as giving to Christmas funds and other overtly beneficial deeds towards the have not's.
Yeah, I've also heard some call keeping the commandments of God preaching "legalism" but the flip side of that argument could be called "lawlessness." But I'm not talking about the keeping of all the carnal ordinances (motions of the law) in the law of Moses. But even the law of Moses has much more to it than first meets the eye, as the law was just a shadow of good things to come but not the very image of those spiritual things. But I won't get into that at this time.

Works can also be shown as "fruit" either good or bad. Just as I see a persons words and actions as fruit as well. A faithful faith in Jesus Christ will produce good fruit, just as a faith without good works is a dead faith as written.

I just dropped down a new thread called "Love fulfills the law" that explains my position a little better if you care to read it here... http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22156-love-fulfills-the-law/
 

James W

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Scripture teaches us Faith with out works is dead. James 2:14-26
Faith Always is Followed by a corresponding action which would also be known as works of Faith.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The Faith that pleases God is not just believing but Doing what is written in His word. This doing of His written word is also works or corresponding actions.

People tend to get caught up in the word works and I have seen simple post turn into huge debates and all sorts of strange beliefs on this one simple word works. For me it is simple.....as I grow in Christ I learn to be more obedient unto His ways and voice and in doing so I am walking as He is directing so works are simply a by-product of my life or walk in Him. You can not obey His word with out acting on His word and you can not act on His word with out producing works or corresponding actions and all done through Faith and Trust and Believing the very word He has given us.

Have a very Blessed and Loving Christmas full of Joy of the Lord
God Bless
James W
 
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WalterandDebbie

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Some believe faith in Jesus Christ is faith alone in the man and only what Jesus did on the cross, which is a very important part of our faith no doubt. But faith in Jesus Christ is much more than just faith in the man, but it is also faith in every word of God.

Because after all Jesus Christ is the very Word of God made flesh; meaning all scripture that is spoken by the Spirit of God, which is the same Spirit of Christ, is also faith in Christ. The reason I bring this up is because some say they believe in Jesus Christ, but yet at the same time they show they don't truly believe in Him because by their own evil works show how they truly deny Him. So what do you believe?

I will start out the conversation with this verse in Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
Amen, :):)

Love, Walter And Debbie
 

Wynona

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Just came from one where the mere mention of an obedient faith in God's words will get you labeled as a preacher of "works Salvationism" or if you speak out against sin you'll be labeled as a preacher of "sinless perfectionism". But usually these tactics are practiced by those who don't understand the message, or those who are actually living "in sin" while at the same time professing to be "in Christ" which is not possible.
There is more balance here on this forum than ever before right now.

I'm in the "stop sinning, obey Jesus" camp. Welcome!
 
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GracePeace

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Thanks for the welcome, and Peace. I know what you might be thinking, as I'm not new to Christian forums. Just came from one where the mere mention of an obedient faith in God's words will get you labeled as a preacher of "works Salvationism" or if you speak out against sin you'll be labeled as a preacher of "sinless perfectionism". But usually these tactics are practiced by those who don't understand the message, or those who are actually living "in sin" while at the same time professing to be "in Christ" which is not possible.

But to expound on the OP these verses here speaks to the heart of the matter....
I will share my "take" on the issue of "faith vs works".

Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
"[Christ] came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."
(When the minister went and preached, that is accounted as Christ.)
Because walking in faith is not "a righteousness of my own", but God's, justification thereby is "grace not works".

When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.
What's the difference between being under Law and serving others by faith?
Doesn't the Law tell you to love your neighbor?
The Law directs attention to self, to condemn sinfulness.
Looking to the Law/self is turning from Christ; looking to Christ is turning from the Law/self.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God."
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..."
Whose righteousness it is depends on who you behold--self or Christ.
Thus, to serve others by faith Christ authors differs from Law.

Paul had Timothy circumcised, yet he was not an accursed false teacher.
Why? Because Paul did it "because of the Jews in the region".
Paul was serving the Jews, trying to open a door so they might be saved.
Paul's circumcising Timothy proceeded from Christ for the Jews' salvation.
It wasn't because Paul sought justification by Law.

Thus, what makes something a "work", one's own righteousness, is who performs it.
When we walk by faith, that is God performing the righteousness.
"Yet not I but the grace with me."
If we do works, even good ones, without faith, we are condemned (Ro 14:5,23).
Faith is looking to Christ, not self.
God's righteousness, not our works.
"Not I but Christ."

Therefore, to say we're justified by walking in faith is "grace not works".
It's not us.
James taught so.

Paul calls marriage or celibacy "each man's gift".
So, man's walking in either of these is his "gift" given by grace--not his "work".
Walking in faith is "the gift of righteousness"--not our works, but God's.

Thus, Ro 2 can say "doers of the Law will be justified" without contradicting "grace not works".
The examples of doers it gives are Gentile believers who walk in God's righteousness by faith.
Walking by faith is not a righteousness of one's own, but God's.

Some claim "works" refers to Jewish practices like circumcision.
"We're not justified by becoming Jews," is their conclusion.
That doesn't work: Ro 3 "by works of Law comes the knowledge of sin".
Ro 7:7 says the fact that coveting is sinful is known by the Law.
So, "works of Law" encompasses the entirety of the Law's commands.

Then how can we be justified by being doers of the Law?
Because the works that justify come from God, as a gift, not self.
That's the difference--God's righteousness or man's righteousness.

So, yes, actually, we are justified, as James says, by walking in faith--and it's not a contradiction of "grace not works".
Paul uses "works" technically.
It seems James is correcting people who've misunderstood Paul.
It seems James uses "works" in a less technical way.
 

Soyeong

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Nope...just a welcome. You'll find I speak very plainly and clearly.

There are differences that need to be realized/identified when addressing "works", as there are good and bad works, works that are legalistic and works that result from faith.
In fact, the verbal laws that the Pharisees touted were ALL legalistic and not at all what God wanted, as Jesus so often told or admonished them about. Bad works are obvious, so we're left with works that demonstrate our change of heart from being a selfish person to a selfless person, and works that are demonstrated as public good works such as giving to Christmas funds and other overtly beneficial deeds towards the have not's.
In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, God's word gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law, which got passed down as oral law. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognizes that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said, but warned against their hypocrisy, so the problem that Jesus had was not with the oral law, but with doing things for show.
 

GracePeace

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In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, God's word gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law, which got passed down as oral law. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognizes that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said, but warned against their hypocrisy, so the problem that Jesus had was not with the oral law, but with doing things for show.
Oops!

Jesus, Himself, rejected their oral law as false, quoting Isaiah, "In vain do they worship Me" "they draw near with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me", and rejected their pretense of "God-ordained" authority (Matthew 15): He was being sarcastic when He said "do everything they say but don't do as they do", because He, Himself, didn't obey what they commanded, and if He wasn't being sarcastic, then He would've been making Himself a hypocrite.
 

GracePeace

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In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, God's word gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law, which got passed down as oral law. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognizes that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said, but warned against their hypocrisy, so the problem that Jesus had was not with the oral law, but with doing things for show.
Jesus, directed by God, went out of His way to command a man to break the Jewish religious "authorities" Sabbath rules.

John 5
8Then Jesus told him, “Get up, pick up your mat, and walk.”
9Immediately the man was made well, and he picked up his mat and began to walk.
Now this happened on the Sabbath day, 10so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “This is the Sabbath! It is unlawful for you to carry your mat.”
 

Soyeong

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Oops!

Jesus, Himself, rejected their oral law as false, quoting Isaiah, "In vain do they worship Me" "they draw near with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me", and rejected their pretense of "God-ordained" authority (Matthew 15): He was being sarcastic when He said "do everything they say but don't do as they do", because He, Himself, didn't obey what they commanded, and if He wasn't being sarcastic, then He would've been making Himself a hypocrite.
His problem was not with the oral law, but with them drawing near with their lips while their hearts were far from him. Hypocrisy is doing things for show and the problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees was not with their authority to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law, but with them doing things for show.

Jesus, directed by God, went out of His way to command a man to break the Jewish religious "authorities" Sabbath rules.

John 5
8Then Jesus told him, “Get up, pick up your mat, and walk.”
9Immediately the man was made well, and he picked up his mat and began to walk.
Now this happened on the Sabbath day, 10so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “This is the Sabbath! It is unlawful for you to carry your mat.”
We are permitted to carry things within an eruv on the Sabbath.
 

GracePeace

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His problem was not with the oral law, but with them drawing near with their lips while their hearts were far from him. Hypocrisy is doing things for show and the problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees was not with their authority to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law, but with them doing things for show.
You must not have read:

Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash their hands before they eat.”
3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

So, with Jesus's blessing, His disciples broke their traditions (so He's responsible for their "transgression" of the traditions of the elders), and Jesus went on to call their traditions "breaking God's commands".

You ought to read before engaging in a subject.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
We are permitted to carry things within an eruv on the Sabbath.
The Jews deemed God's directive "sin" against their Law, thus God intentionally defaced their damned Law which they PRETENDED was from God. God HATES their false witness against God, thus God INTENTIONALLY had Jesus direct the man to break their Law.
 

Soyeong

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You must not have read:

Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash their hands before they eat.”
3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

So, with Jesus's blessing, His disciples broke their traditions (so He's responsible for their "transgression" of the traditions of the elders), and Jesus went on to call their traditions "breaking God's commands".

You ought to read before engaging in a subject.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

The Jews deemed God's directive "sin" against their Law, thus God intentionally defaced their damned Law which they PRETENDED was from God. God HATES their false witness against God, thus God INTENTIONALLY had Jesus direct the man to break their Law.
Someone has an understanding of how to obey the Torah and it gets passed down as tradition, so it would be virtually impossible for someone to by the Torah without following traditions. For example, in Numbers 15:38, it instructs to wear tassels on the corners of our garments with a thread of blue in each, however, it doesn't say anything about what shade of blue to use, what other colors should be used, what to use to make the pigment, how they should be attached to our garments, how many knots should be tied, what we should do if our garments don't have corner, etc., so all of these things got left to tradition. Christ's critics would not have missed the opportunity to criticize Jesus if he had not been following these traditions.

In Matthew 15, the problem that Jesus had was not with follow traditions, but with the manner in which they were following them. They were setting aside the traditions of in order to establish their own traditions. For example, there is noting wrong with someone choosing to follow their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but there is something wrong with someone hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day holy in order to establish their own traditions. Again, Deuteronomy 17:8-13 gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law and Jesus was not opposed to this.
 

GracePeace

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Someone has an understanding of how to obey the Torah and it gets passed down as tradition, so it would be virtually impossible for someone to by the Torah without following traditions. For example, in Numbers 15:38, it instructs to wear tassels on the corners of our garments with a thread of blue in each, however, it doesn't say anything about what shade of blue to use, what other colors should be used, what to use to make the pigment, how they should be attached to our garments, how many knots should be tied, what we should do if our garments don't have corner, etc., so all of these things got left to tradition. Christ's critics would not have missed the opportunity to criticize Jesus if he had not been following these traditions.

In Matthew 15, the problem that Jesus had was not with follow traditions, but with the manner in which they were following them. They were setting aside the traditions of in order to establish their own traditions. For example, there is noting wrong with someone choosing to follow their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but there is something wrong with someone hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day holy in order to establish their own traditions. Again, Deuteronomy 17:8-13 gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey God's law and Jesus was not opposed to this.
Bottom line: Jesus REJECTED their words and REJECTED their pretense of "authority from God".
Jesus DID NOT follow their words, and DID NOT have His disciples follow their words.
Therefore, when He says "do all they say but don't do as they do" He was being sarcastic.
He did not follow, and didn't want anyone else doing so--He was being sarcastic.

We also know Jesus explicitly directed a man to BREAK THEIR traditions (Jn 5).
 

Soyeong

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Bottom line: Jesus REJECTED their words and REJECTED their pretense of "authority from God".
Jesus DID NOT follow their words, and DID NOT have His disciples follow their words.
Therefore, when He says "do all they say but don't do as they do" He was being sarcastic.
He did not follow, and didn't want anyone else doing so--He was being sarcastic.

We also know Jesus explicitly directed a man to BREAK THEIR traditions (Jn 5).
Jesus followed their traditions and instructed His disciples to also follow them in accordance with Deuteronomy 17:8-13. The Pharisees who thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath were incorrect.
 

GracePeace

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Jesus followed their traditions and instructed His disciples to also follow them in accordance with Deuteronomy 17:8-13. The Pharisees who thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath were incorrect.
Nope, Jesus broke their traditions, and His disciples broke their traditions, just like their Master, with impunity, and Jesus intentionally commanded a man to break their traditions (Jn 5), as I've proven--thus, the only coherent way to read "do as they say but not as they do" is that Jesus was being sarcastic.

NEXT!