IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Doug]

[1Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

[1Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These verses establish that we will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. It is established that this gathering is a mystery, hid in God, until revealed to Paul. The gathering, being a mystery, can only be for the church, the body of Christ. This gathering is commonly referred to as the rapture, although that term is not found in scripture; nevertheless I will use it for familiarity sake.

The question before us is; is the rapture before the tribulation.

There is no definitive statement to this effect, however, there is scripture to consider that will support the belief that the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

[Romans 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here Paul says the church, the body of Christ, will be saved from wrath.

[1Thessalonians 5:9 KJV] 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here Paul confirms the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

[1Thessalonians 1:10 KJV] 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We are delivered from the wrath to come.

[Luk 3:7 KJV] 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the Baptist spoke unto the people of Israel to flee the wrath to come. What is the wrath to come?

[Revelation 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[Rev 14:10, 19 KJV] 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: ... 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[Rev 15:1, 7 KJV] 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
[Rev 16:1 KJV] 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[Rev 19:15 KJV] 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

[2Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV] 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is speaking about the coming of Christ, which he calls the day of Christ in verse 2. In the day of Christ the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming in verse 8.

Paul also speaks of our gathering together, the rapture, in verse 1 and tells them not to be troubled because the rapture event is associated with his coming and is not at hand.

[2Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The man of sin must be revealed before the coming of Christ, the day of Christ. What withholds the revealing of the wicked man of sin is the body of Christ; when the body of Christ is raptured and taken out of the way, he will be revealed.

The last scripture to consider follows:

[2Timothy 2:17-18 KJV] 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The question is what resurrection is past.

The first to consider is the resurrection at the last day, at the end of the tribulation. Could this be the resurrection that they were saying happened already?

Look at scripture about this resurrection:

[Matthew 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These celestial events occur at the coming of Christ.

[Matthew 25:31 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Christ comes he will establish his kingdom (Matthew 25:34) on earth and sit on David's throne (Luke 1:32).

[Matthew 8:11 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

This verses establishes that there will be a resurrection of the just at his coming to establish the kingdom on earth.

It would be impossible to miss this resurrection; how could one not see all the celestial events and Christ coming to earth and the resurrection of the old testament saints.

The only resurrection that they were saying was past would be the rapture.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

[1Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

[1Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These verses establish that we will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. It is established that this gathering is a mystery, hid in God, until revealed to Paul. The gathering, being a mystery, can only be for the church, the body of Christ. This gathering is commonly referred to as the rapture, although that term is not found in scripture; nevertheless I will use it for familiarity sake.

The question before us is; is the rapture before the tribulation.

There is no definitive state

Scripture never says the rapture happens before the tribulation. That idea came from Darby and Scofield — not Jesus, not Paul, and not the early Church.

Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather his elect from the four winds" (Matthew 24:29–31). That’s not hidden, secret, or symbolic. It’s a visible return after the tribulation.

Paul describes the same moment: "The Lord shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise… we shall be caught up… and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). He never separates this from the Second Coming. It’s one event.

Second Thessalonians 2:3 says the day of Christ will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed. That happens during the tribulation. So how can the rapture come before it?

"Not appointed to wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9) means we are spared God’s judgment, not all suffering. Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation" (John 16:33), and Revelation shows saints still on Earth during the beast’s reign (Revelation 13:7 and 14:12).

Nowhere does the Bible promise an escape hatch before things get hard. It promises endurance, resurrection, and Christ’s return in glory.

The rapture and the Second Coming are one climactic event, not two.

No early church father taught a secret rapture. No Christian on Earth believed this until the 1830s when Darby invented it out of thin air and Scofield helped mass-market it in his blasphemous 'free Bibles'. It’s modern theology wrapped in fantasy fiction — not Scripture.
The entire Left Behind nonsense is nothing but Hollywood fantasy — not Scripture.

 

[Doug]

Second Thessalonians 2:3 says the day of Christ will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed. That happens during the tribulation. So how can the rapture come before it?

I dont follow you here......what are you saying.....also what do you think the day of Christ is?

 

[Doug]

No early church father taught a secret rapture.

No early church had Paul to reveal the mystery of the rapture

 

[ScottA]

[1Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

[1Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These verses establish that we will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. It is established that this gathering is a mystery, hid in God, until revealed to Paul. The gathering, being a mystery, can only be for the church, the body of Christ. This gathering is commonly referred to as the rapture, although that term is not found in scripture; nevertheless I will use it for familiarity sake.

The question before us is; is the rapture before the tribulation.

There is no definitive statement to this effect, however, there is scripture to consider that will support the belief that the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

[Romans 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here Paul says the church, the body of Christ, will be saved from wrath.

[1Thessalonians 5:9 KJV] 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here Paul confirms the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

[1Thessalonians 1:10 KJV] 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We are delivered from the wrath to come.

[Luk 3:7 KJV] 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the Baptist spoke unto the people of Israel to flee the wrath to come. What is the wrath to come?

[Revelation 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[Rev 14:10, 19 KJV] 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: ... 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[Rev 15:1, 7 KJV] 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
[Rev 16:1 KJV] 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[Rev 19:15 KJV] 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

[2Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV] 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is speaking about the coming of Christ, which he calls the day of Christ in verse 2. In the day of Christ the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming in verse 8.

Paul also speaks of our gathering together, the rapture, in verse 1 and tells them not to be troubled because the rapture event is associated with his coming and is not at hand.

[2Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The man of sin must be revealed before the coming of Christ, the day of Christ. What withholds the revealing of the wicked man of sin is the body of Christ; when the body of Christ is raptured and taken out of the way, he will be revealed.

The last scripture to consider follows:

[2Timothy 2:17-18 KJV] 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The question is what resurrection is past.

The first to consider is the resurrection at the last day, at the end of the tribulation. Could this be the resurrection that they were saying happened already?

Look at scripture about this resurrection:

[Matthew 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These celestial events occur at the coming of Christ.

[Matthew 25:31 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Christ comes he will establish his kingdom (Matthew 25:34) on earth and sit on David's throne (Luke 1:32).

[Matthew 8:11 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

This verses establishes that there will be a resurrection of the just at his coming to establish the kingdom on earth.

It would be impossible to miss this resurrection; how could one not see all the celestial events and Christ coming to earth and the resurrection of the old testament saints.

The only resurrection that they were saying was past would be the rapture.

The "great tribulation" is not "the wrath to come."

Since the beginning all suffer wrath and tribulation. To the contrary, all do not suffer the "great tribulation" commonly referred to. The "great tribulation" referred to, is rather [all] tribulation which Christ alone has and will suffer. Of that tribulation, we the church, the body of Christ, only suffer in part--as we are but a part of Him.

To fully understand what I have just said, it is important to understand that there is no greater tribulation than [all] tribulation combined. This is the "great tribulation" referred to in the scriptures.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I dont follow you here......what are you saying.....also what do you think the day of Christ is?

No early church had Paul to reveal the mystery of the rapture

Paul absolutely revealed the mystery of the rapture — but he never said it happens before the tribulation.

The “day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is the same climactic return Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 — the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to Him. But in 2 Thess. 2:3, Paul clearly says that day won’t come until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin — both part of the tribulation timeline.

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

And yes, the early Church didn’t have the full canon — but they did have Paul’s letters. And..
None of them ever taught a two-stage return of Christ.
None of them believed in a secret pre-trib rapture.

Darby invented that system in the 1800s. Paul didn’t teach it. Jesus didn’t preach it. The apostles didn’t expect it. And the early church never believed it.

What they did believe was exactly what Jesus said: Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect. (Matthew 24:29–31)

That’s not mystery. That’s Scripture.

 

[Doug]

but he never said it happens before the tribulation.

right I said there is no definitive scripture

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

right I said there is no definitive scripture

You don’t build doctrine by what the Bible doesn’t say.
You build it on what it does say — and it says the elect are gathered after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29–31), the Antichrist is revealed before the Day of Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:3), and the resurrection happens at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

 

[Doug]

The “day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is the same climactic return Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 — the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to Him.

The day of Christ is not the rapture ........this is a common misunderstanding because they are mentioned together in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The day of Christ is when he returns to destroy the man of sin v 8

 

[Doug]

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

Paul was speaking of the conditions that would occur before his coming in v 2 and 3 not the rapture

 

[Doug]

And yes, the early Church didn’t have the full canon — but they did have Paul’s letters

When exactly did the early church exist? when did they get Pauls letters? where did they refute the rapture? I cant answer and neither can you....this is not a valid argument against the rapture with all due respect

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Paul was speaking of the conditions that would occur before his coming in v 2 and 3 not the rapture

The day of Christ is not the rapture ........this is a common misunderstanding because they are mentioned together in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The day of Christ is when he returns to destroy the man of sin v 8

You're splitting what Paul clearly connects.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 says, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him" — Paul is addressing both the return of Christ and the rapture in the same breath.

Then in verse 3, he says “that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.”

What day?
The one he just referenced in verse 1 — the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him.

If you separate the rapture from that day, you’re inserting a theological gap that Paul never mentions. You’re literally ignoring the structure of the sentence.

Paul wasn’t confused. The early Church wasn’t confused. Only modern dispensationalism makes this confusing — by reading into the text what isn’t there.

If “our gathering to Him” must wait until after the Antichrist is revealed…
Then the rapture is not pre-trib.

Period. The End.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

When exactly did the early church exist? when did they get Pauls letters? where did they refute the rapture? I cant answer and neither can you....this is not a valid argument against the rapture with all due respect

The early Church existed from the moment the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost (Acts 2). Paul's letters were written between roughly 50–67 AD and were circulating among the churches while the apostles were still alive — that’s historical and biblical fact (see Colossians 4:16, 2 Peter 3:15–16).

And no — they didn’t teach a secret pre-trib rapture. Not one early Church father mentions it. Not Ignatius, not Polycarp, not Irenaeus, not Justin Martyr — all of whom were far closer to the apostles than Darby or Scofield.

You’re right — I can’t show a written refutation of a doctrine that didn’t exist yet. But here's the problem for your position:

You can’t find anyone teaching a pre-trib rapture before the 1800s.

That’s the issue.
No one in the early Church taught a two-stage return of Christ. No one taught a secret coming before tribulation.
They all spoke of one return of Christ — at the end, in glory, to raise the dead, judge the world, and gather His people.

If the pre-trib view were apostolic truth, where’s the historical record?
You want to talk about silence? The first 1,800 years of Church history are completely silent on the idea you’re defending.

 

[keithr]

Here are some supporting verses from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

The wrath is towards the end of the Great Tribulation that lasts approximately 3.5 years. (1278 days, 8 hours, 42 minutes would be close to exact - but the phrase "time, times and half a time" is not intended to mean precisely). We have several other scriptures mentioning the approximate time period of 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days.
You identified when the the wrath comes in Rev. 11:15-19. It happens at the 7th Trumpet ( also referred to as the last trumpet). So the Mid-Trib/ Pre-Wrath view is correct.

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"After the tribulation of those days", does not support Post-Trib and certainly not Pre-Trib views. It means after the days previously mentioned ( which are many, 1260). But notice it is not over yet.
At the 7th Trumpet, many events happen:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of the Lord. He begins His reign as He takes control from Satan as defeats Him in battle.
2. Worship and Thanksgiving in heaven.
WRATH COMES (in the 7 Bowls released at that time)
3. Judgement of the dead
4. Rewards for servants are given ( a clear indication that we have just been raptured)
5. Dead in Christ are judged.
6. Temple in Heaven is opened
7. More devastation comes from the wrath that just begins.
So Jesus returns towards the end of the GT, but not after and not before. There are events between 1260 days and 1290 days and beyond up to 1335 days, after which the Millennial Kingdom begins.
Blessed are those who patiently make it through the 1,335 days. DAN. 12:12

 

[rebuilder 454]

Scripture never says the rapture happens before the tribulation. That idea came from Darby and Scofield — not Jesus, not Paul, and not the early Church.

Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather his elect from the four winds" (Matthew 24:29–31). That’s not hidden, secret, or symbolic. It’s a visible return after the tribulation.

Paul describes the same moment: "The Lord shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise… we shall be caught up… and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). He never separates this from the Second Coming. It’s one event.

Second Thessalonians 2:3 says the day of Christ will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed. That happens during the tribulation. So how can the rapture come before it?

"Not appointed to wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9) means we are spared God’s judgment, not all suffering. Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation" (John 16:33), and Revelation shows saints still on Earth during the beast’s reign (Revelation 13:7 and 14:12).

Nowhere does the Bible promise an escape hatch before things get hard. It promises endurance, resurrection, and Christ’s return in glory.

The rapture and the Second Coming are one climactic event, not two.

No early church father taught a secret rapture. No Christian on Earth believed this until the 1830s when Darby invented it out of thin air and Scofield helped mass-market it in his blasphemous 'free Bibles'. It’s modern theology wrapped in fantasy fiction — not Scripture.
The entire Left Behind nonsense is nothing but Hollywood fantasy — not Scripture.

That notion that no early church father taught the pre. Tribulation rapture has been debunked years ago.


It was Jesus that taught the pre tribulation rapture.
so I guess you're trying to say that Jesus was wrong.

Ironic that man has taught you wrong and the pretrib rapture is Jesus' words in the bible.

Show me a postrib rapture verse.
Should be easy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The wrath is towards the end of the Great Tribulation that lasts approximately 3.5 years. (1278 days, 8 hours, 42 minutes would be close to exact - but the phrase "time, times and half a time" is not intended to mean precisely). We have several other scriptures mentioning the approximate time period of 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days.
You identified when the the wrath comes in Rev. 11:15-19. It happens at the 7th Trumpet ( also referred to as the last trumpet). So the Mid-Trib/ Pre-Wrath view is correct.

"After the tribulation of those days", does not support Post-Trib and certainly not Pre-Trib views. It means after the days previously mentioned ( which are many, 1260). But notice it is not over yet.
At the 7th Trumpet, many events happen:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of the Lord. He begins His reign as He takes control from Satan as defeats Him in battle.
2. Worship and Thanksgiving in heaven.
WRATH COMES (in the 7 Bowls released at that time)
3. Judgement of the dead
4. Rewards for servants are given ( a clear indication that we have just been raptured)
5. Dead in Christ are judged.
6. Temple in Heaven is opened
7. More devastation comes from the wrath that just begins.
So Jesus returns towards the end of the GT, but not after and not before. There are events between 1260 days and 1290 days and beyond up to 1335 days, after which the Millennial Kingdom begins.
Blessed are those who patiently make it through the 1,335 days. DAN. 12:12

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, and normal everyday life.

Your model is exactly opposite that.
Not only that but if God is precise, your rapture model is exactly 3.5 yrs after the man of sin is revealed.
So your model knows what Jesus does not know....the day of the rapture!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here are some supporting verses from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

I would add that in Daniel, it says the AC kills the saints.
Postribs envision themselves as protected, and running from cave to cave, to escape.

Yes! They see themselves as escapists.
Oh the irony.

 

[Behold]

Reader,.

The reason that the "catching away" happens where the ""Bride" meets the "Lord in the Air", in the "twinkling of an eye", ...and shall "all be changed"......happens before the Trib, .......is becaust the Rapture of the Body of Christ is specific to the end of the "Time of the Gentiles" that ENDS before the Trib starts.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Paul absolutely revealed the mystery of the rapture — but he never said it happens before the tribulation.

The “day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is the same climactic return Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 — the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to Him. But in 2 Thess. 2:3, Paul clearly says that day won’t come until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin — both part of the tribulation timeline.

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

And yes, the early Church didn’t have the full canon — but they did have Paul’s letters. And..
None of them ever taught a two-stage return of Christ.
None of them believed in a secret pre-trib rapture.

Darby invented that system in the 1800s. Paul didn’t teach it. Jesus didn’t preach it. The apostles didn’t expect it. And the early church never believed it.

What they did believe was exactly what Jesus said: Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect. (Matthew 24:29–31)

That’s not mystery. That’s Scripture.

Again, no smoking gun on your points.
Zero.
1) do a little research, because your doctrine is MEN misleading you.
Your false point of no church father teaching a pretrib rapture has been debunked YEARS AGO.( Ask yourself why postribbers stopped saying it) men teachers will make a fool of yourself.
2) You pointed out that the AC is REVEALED ..THEN THE RAPTURE.
AHEM....THAT would be pretrib rapture.
He is REVEALED PRETRIB.

Your other postrib talking point is "after the trib, ANGELS GATHER ( not Jesus) , the elect FROM HEAVEN (NOT EARTH)"

You are making a case for a pretrib rapture!

Thank you!