Veganism

[Prycejosh1987]

Vegan food taste like powder and butter. I prefer genuine meat because it has better forms of protein in it.

 

[GracePeace]

Vegan food taste like powder and butter. I prefer genuine meat because it has better forms of protein in iit.

Strawberries don't taste like powder and butter.

As far as vegan meat substitutes, I'm not really crazy about them.

Nevertheless, the topic is about working through Biblical difficulties of the issue, not about preferences about flavors.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Strawberries don't taste like powder and butter.

I like powder and butter on my Strawberries!

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Veganism is extreme Vegetarianism.

It isn't just a matter of abstaining from consumption of animal flesh. It also includes abstaining from any and all byproducts that exploit animals.

Dairy products,leather goods,wool,honey,beeswax candles,etc...

On the other hand, the diet factor increases energy and improves mood,and sleeping patterns.

Romans 14:1-3
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I dont understand what to do concerning (esp raw) veganism.

On one hand, the Bible warns that in the last days, men, following demons' doctrines, will forbid eating foods God made to be enjoyed, and characterizes those who eat only vegetables as weak in the faith.

On the other hand, the Bible says "love does no harm" (and it seems the only diet that doesn't harm is raw veganism--this can be discussed), and Jesus uses Genesis as the standard for marriage ("From the beginning, it was not so")... so, why can't we say "From the beginning it was not so" concerning diet?
This question is especially of interest in light of the Messianic Age prophecy, "the lion will eat straw as the ox" : this will not actually be "new", it will merely be a restoration of the animals to their Fod-ordained/"From the beginning" vegan diets.

Seeing that the Messiah restores the original standards of God in both marriage and in animals' diets, why would it be so far afield to assert that this restoration He accomplishes reaches to diet--ie, that we SHOULD (as a matter of righteousness) adopt a raw vegan diet?

Problem : Paul seemingly forbids this.
Also, Jesus fed bread and fish to His disciples... however, God leads people into truth little by little, so He may have permitted it then knowing things would change in the future.

Anyway, maybe someone else has been concerned about this, and has thought about it. I don't know what to make of these things.

as a species we are onmivores and can eat meat fish vegetables, out teeth and digestive system can accomodate and are designed for it all. so yes we can eat meat fish and so on, it is all over the bible, out health depends on different foods, some important animo acids that are present in meat are necessary so a vegan diet is not a food idea on the point of view of nutrition, as well we can certainly eat less meats. In Canada, USA, Brasil and Argentina, we eat too much meats we overburden our digestive systems.

 

[GracePeace]

as a species we are onmivores and can eat meat fish vegetables, out teeth and digestive system can accomodate and are designed for it all. so yes we can eat meat fish and so on, it is all over the bible, out health depends on different foods, some important animo acids that are present in meat are necessary so a vegan diet is not a food idea on the point of view of nutrition, as well we can certainly eat less meats. In Canada, USA, Brasil and Argentina, we eat too much meats we overburden our digestive systems.

Apparently, the animals changed (even biologically) after the fall... so it may also be that humans also changed (even biologically) so that they cannot sustain a completely raw vegan diet.
Raw vegans do have to supplement with B12, because we don't have a good source for it (meat eaters obtain B12 because meat has poop on it, and that is where their B12 comes from), as well as with Carnitine, etc.

Irrespectively, the reality we are understanding, scientifically, is that deviating from veganism does cause "harm"--and I made various points based on that in the OP.

 

[GracePeace]

Veganism is extreme Vegetarianism.

It isn't just a matter of abstaining from consumption of animal flesh. It also includes abstaining from any and all byproducts that exploit animals.

Dairy products,leather goods,wool,honey,beeswax candles,etc...

On the other hand, the diet factor increases energy and improves mood,and sleeping patterns.

Romans 14:1-3
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

I understand we should not "despise" or "pass judgment" on others, but if a person is choosing to do something they think is wrong, or that they think is right, what is the basis for their conviction--and if their conviction has good reason for being that way, why wouldn't it be right to try to persuade others to follow suit (so that they avert the penalties God is bringing down on them for what they are enduring, and obtain benefits from God for doing what apparently pleases God)?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I understand we should not "despise" or "pass judgment" on others, but if a person is choosing to do something they think is wrong, or that they think is right, what is the basis for their conviction--and if their conviction has good reason for being that way, why wouldn't it be right to try to persuade others to follow suit (so that they avert the penalties God is bringing down on them for what they are enduring, and obtain benefits from God for doing what apparently pleases God)?

It's like anything else really.

If someone's lifestyle, diet, appears to be bringing positive results to their life,others may follow suit.

If not,that's a personal choice.

 

[GracePeace]

It's like anything else really.

If someone's lifestyle, diet, appears to be bringing positive results to their life,others may follow suit.

If not,that's a personal choice.

But again, if it is a personal choice that is leading to self harm, and "love does no harm", aren't we correct to identify their activity as not walking in love, but after the flesh (since walking after the Spirit means walking in love)? And since gays "receive in themselves the penalty due their error", how could someone not say "Veganism is the correct way to eat, and if you veer from it, you are following selfish pleasure, and selfish pleasure is idolatry, is the definition of sin--that is why God punishes you, through biology, when you chase that pleasure"?

I mean, we argue for monogamous heterosexual marriage, and we talk about what happens, or could/should happen (eg, under Law) if you veer from it, so why not also with diet? I accept that people are where they are with their diet, and that it may be due to ignorance, but that doesn't mean I want to be like them, or reap the punishments, nor forfeit the rewards, of eating correctly, like a human being should.
Also, again, Jesus argues for the gold standard for marriage found in Genesis 1, so on what basis are we ignoring the gold standard for diet found in Genesis 1?

Yet, Christ also teaches there is a category of truth (and its reward) that men are not obligated to follow--ie, (Mt 19) it is better to be celibate than it is to marry, but if you marry, you have not sinned, you're just choosing a less-good way of living.

It really is slippery.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

But again, if it is a personal choice that is leading to self harm, and "love does no harm", aren't we correct to identify their activity as not walking in love, but after the flesh (since walking after the Spirit means walking in love)? And since gays "receive in themselves the penalty due their error", how could someone not say "Veganism is the correct way to eat, and if you veer from it, you are following selfish pleasure, and selfish pleasure is idolatry, is the definition of sin--that is why God punishes you, through biology, when you chase that pleasure"?

I mean, we argue for monogamous heterosexual marriage, and we talk about what happens, or could/should happen (eg, under Law) if you veer from it, so why not also with diet? I accept that people are where they are with their diet, and that it may be due to ignorance, but that doesn't mean I want to be like them, or reap the punishments, nor forfeit the rewards, of eating correctly, like a human being should.
Also, again, Jesus argues for the gold standard for marriage found in Genesis 1, so on what basis are we ignoring the gold standard for diet found in Genesis 1?

Yet, Christ also teaches there is a category of truth (and its reward) that men are not obligated to follow--ie, (Mt 19) it is better to be celibate than it is to marry, but if you marry, you have not sinned, you're just choosing a less-good way of living.

It really is slippery.

I was talking about diet.

In matters of self harm, I've known people that behaved badly. I try to talk with them about it but they made excuses to continue.

At that point, they're oblivious to their situation and the risks. They know the risks and they don't care they're going to suffer them.

OK. So be it.

 

[GracePeace]

I was talking about diet.

In matters of self harm, I've known people that behaved badly. I try to talk with them about it but they made excuses to continue.

At that point, they're oblivious to their situation and the risks. They know the risks and they don't care they're going to suffer them.

OK. So be it.

Right, diet causes self-harm--and we know why people do it, that it is for pleasuring the body, the desires of which wage war against the mind, according to Peter and Paul, and hundreds of thousands die from that pursuit of pleasure in the US every year, bc they die of heart attacks, strokes, etc, etc.

So, if they're receiving in themselves a penalty doesn't it prove they're in error, especially bc we know they eat for pleasure, not for what their bodies actually need? Are they walking in love, then, especially if they know better? It's different perhaps if they don't know better.

 

[GracePeace]

I was talking about diet.

In matters of self harm, I've known people that behaved badly. I try to talk with them about it but they made excuses to continue.

At that point, they're oblivious to their situation and the risks. They know the risks and they don't care they're going to suffer them.

OK. So be it.

Paul says the widow who lives in wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives (Spiritually dead--she has been warred against by the flesh, with its desires that are contrary to the spirit, and has been conquered); Peter says "arm yourselves with suffering in the flesh, for the one that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin", so how can people who are living for pleasure in their flesh (eg, diet) going to cease from sin?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Paul says the widow who lives in wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives (Spiritually dead--she has been warred against by the flesh, with its desires that are contrary to the spirit, and has been conquered); Peter says "arm yourselves with suffering in the flesh, for the one that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin", so how can people who are living for pleasure in their flesh (eg, diet) going to cease from sin?

How?
Die.

We have faith. We don't need to be psychotic to prove it .

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Right, diet causes self-harm--and we know why people do it, that it is for pleasuring the body, the desires of which wage war against the mind, according to Peter and Paul, and hundreds of thousands die from that pursuit of pleasure in the US every year, bc they die of heart attacks, strokes, etc, etc.

So, if they're receiving in themselves a penalty doesn't it prove they're in error, especially bc we know they eat for pleasure, not for what their bodies actually need? Are they walking in love, then, especially if they know better? It's different perhaps if they don't know better.

How does a healthy diet cause self harm?

 

[GracePeace]

How?
Die.

Peter says it's by abstaining from fleshly desires that wage war on the soul, just as Paul describes the sinful urges in the flesh as doing in Ro 7.

We have faith. We don't need to be psychotic to prove it .

Is Peter "psychotic"? Didn't Paul say he was in fasting often?

 

[GracePeace]

How does a healthy diet cause self harm?

Obviously, I mean unhealthy diet causes self-harm. I've repeated that over and over. Are you even reading what I'm saying carefully before responding?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Peter says it's by abstaining from fleshly desires that wage war on the soul, just as Paul describes the sinful urges in the flesh as doing in Ro 7.

Is Peter "psychotic"?

Eating fulfills the body's desire to survive through the nourishment food provides. Peter never said we must not eat if we want to insure we do not sin.

And Paul,as he said of himself, was a sinner who knew the right thing to do but could not bring himself to do it. Because he was sold as a slave to sin. Romans 7.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Obviously, I mean unhealthy diet causes self-harm. I've repeated that over and over. Are you even reading what I'm saying carefully before responding?

Obviously since I responded to what you wrote in post 91. There,you did not refer to unhealthy diet.

Have you read what Paul said here?

Colossians 2:16-23 (NIV)
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

Eating fulfills the body's desire to survive through the nourishment food provides.

Yup, but, again, are you denying people eat for pleasure and harm themselves by so doing--that it's one thing to eat for nourishment, to obtain for the body the vitamins and minerals, fibers, etc, it needs WHILE ALSO MAINTAINING suffering and not living in wanton pleasure, and another thing to eat for wanton pleasure (contrary to sound doctrine) and suffer the self harm that brings?

Peter never said we must not eat if we want to insure we do not sin.

I never said not to eat : you're being dishonest, over and over, so, since you're not interested in truth, I see no reason to waste my resources continuing entertaining you.

Thanks

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Yup, but, again, are you denying people eat for pleasure and harm themselves by so doing--that it's one thing to eat for nourishment, to obtain for the body the vitamins and minerals, fibers, etc, it needs WHILE ALSO MAINTAINING suffering and not living in wanton pleasure, and another thing to eat for wanton pleasure (contrary to sound doctrine) and suffer the self harm that brings?

Of course people do things that harm themselves.

What's your point.

I never said not to eat : you're being dishonest, over and over, so, since you're not interested in truth, I see no reason to waste my resources continuing entertaining you.

Thanks

My pleasure.
Paul's scripture shut you down.