Help with John 12:32

[Carl Emerson]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 12:32….
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (ESV)

Some translations say “all people”…others say “all men” so, to be in sync with the rest of scripture, what did Jesus mean by “all men” or “all people”?……because it is clear from other passages that “all people” are not acceptable to him. There are “sheep and goats”….”wheat and weeds”…and two roads, where only one (less travelled) leads to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

Going to Strongs to provide some clarity, we find that the meaning of the word “all” doesn’t necessarily mean “everyone”.

The word is “pas” and it means…

1. “individually
   1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
   1. some of all types”

So when he said that he would “draw all people”, it clearly doesn’t literally mean “all people”, but more correctly, “people of all types ”, which fits in with what Jesus taught about some being rejected based on their thinking and conduct. (Matt 13:47-50; Matt 7:21-23) It was always about the heart, not a person’s education or intellect….but by what sort of human being they were, In how they treated others in their daily life.

There is a very good reason why Jesus sent out preachers into the community…..on the basis of their message, people would be either attracted, or repelled by the message…..or if they refused to listen, it was because of the messenger.…not what was said, but who said it. (Matt 10:11-15)

The Jews were taught to be prejudiced towards anyone who disagreed with what their leaders taught them.…and then God had the temerity to invite hated gentiles into his purpose for mankind. What they ignored was that this was in God’s plans all along. “All the nations“ we’re going to receive a blessing from Abraham’s seed. (Gen 22:18) The Jews got carried away with their lineage, and forgot about their conduct.

This preaching work gave everyone an opportunity to hear Jesus’ message of salvation and be saved, but it also created a basis for separation and judgment. Jesus told his disciples to preach the gospel (good news) to all who would listen, (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:18-20) and this preaching about God’s Kingdom was to continue until “the end of the age”, when Jesus was to return as judge. By that time all would have made their decisions, and will be dealt with according to Scripture.

That time is not far away….

 

[Lambano]

The Greek doesn't say "all men", it doesn't say all of what; it just says "all". The translators added "men" or "people" to try to make sense of it. And in doing so, they may have unintentionally created a different context for the quote.

The context is the current prince of this world being kicked out (verse 31), so "I will draw all to myself" may mean Messiah will consolidate EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY under His rule when He has been glorified.

 

[Hiddenthings]

"All men" to mean, without distinction of race.

This phrase as referring to “all things,” linking it to Psalm 8:6:

“Thou madest him to have dominion over all the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet.” — Psalm 8:6

This idea is echoed in Colossians 1:20:

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.” — Colossians 1:20

The connection between "all men" and "all things" reflects the universal scope of God's redemptive work in Christ not limited by race or nation, but extending to all creation under his authority.

This does not mean of course all are saved.

 

[marks]

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 KJV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 1:9 KJV
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Titus 2:11 KJV
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Yet not all men are saved.

2 Peter 2:21 KJV
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Knowing the truth does not equal being born again.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

It is accepted by Universalists because they ignore all the passages that describe the majority of people ending in the lake of fire, point 1.

Point 2, in light of point 1 they do not bother to correctly exegete the word all from the original.. PAS9all) has two meanings. One is everyone or all. the second is all sorts of or many types of men. when you look at the all in this passage and keep it consistent with the rest of the soteriological verses, you must conclude that Jesus was speaking that all sorts of people will be drawn to Him.

 

[shepherdsword]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

He will draw all men to Him for Judgement

 

[Behold]

EAnd I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

That is Christ speaking about The Cross., as they were going to put Him on it, and lift it up.

Its also, "the Preaching of The Cross.".... (Paul's Gospel).......as when we share Paul's Gospel.. = How Jesus died on the Cross, for your SINs, we are "lifting up, The Cross"... by "Preaching the Cross".

So, in both cases Jesus is being "lifted up".......and in both cases, the Holy Spirit will draw sinners to Himself so that they might believe in Jesus and become .. born again.

 

[shepherdsword]

That is Christ speaking about The Cross., as they were going to put Him on it, and lift it up.

Its also, "the Preaching of The Cross.".... (Paul's Gospel).......as when we share Paul's Gospel.. = How Jesus died on the Cross, for your SINs, we are "lifting up, The Cross"... by "Preaching the Cross".

So, in both cases Jesus is being "lifted up".......and in both cases, the Holy Spirit will draw sinners to Himself so that they might believe in Jesus and become .. born again.

Dude...your posts.... are hard=(not easy) to "read" with.... the way you..... format.

 

[Behold]

Dude...your posts.... are hard=(not easy) to "read" with.... the way you..... format.

yes., thats true.

See, when I teach spiritual Truth......there needs to be pauses..... when its read, so that the Holy Spirit can minister revelation using the words.

But even moreso........when you read words that are God's spiritual truth.......they have to be spritually discerned........and that is not the same as just reading them, as if you are reading a religious dictionary that contains bible word definitions.

Let me show you what i mean.. @shepherdsword


"God is A Spirit" who "exists in Light"......and the bible is a "light for your path and a Lamp for your feet.""...
Jesus is the Spirit of Truth, and all the born again have been "translated from Darkness to Light", "because we have passed from death to life... and now exist as "seated in heavenly places "in Christ"..... who is the "light of the world"...which means that all born again Christians are "Children of the Light'.

Now see that?
That is mystical teaching.......which is teaching about God's LIGHT.... that is the "Light for Life".

So, this type of Mystical writing, that is only spiritual....has to be discerned by the Holy Spirit, inside the believer....and if they just try to read it like a dictionary, then it reads like CONFUSION.
And if a person is not really a Christian, but is just Religious and so forth, then they can forget it.

See a Real Teacher of The Revelation of the Bible and specifically the New Covenant, is teaching spiritual revelation, and that can't be read and understood correctly. It has to be spiritually discerned as that is what its all about.

So, that is why my 300 + Threads i have posted on this forum, and Thousands of Posts.....have a lot in them that is Christian Mystical....because... its revelation knowledge that im teaching as spiritual light that the Child of God can only discern by the "eyes of their understanding" being opened by the Holy Spirit.

See, to learn Christian Spirituality, is to become : EN-LIGHT-ENED. = .by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fred J]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Thank you Carl, very interesting point.

Basically, not every one who stumble on a stone would be happy

Either in offense one would kick the stone, toss it away, or probably curse it in disgust.

There are those who would not do anything to the stone they stumble upon, but rather pay attention in future.

Since Jesus is sent and came only for Israel, and only a remnant of them saved by grace.

Therefore after He's lifted up, He'll draw people of all nation, kindred and tongue by the Gospel.

i believe that's what He meant by 'all people', and not every one of them, because many rebelled and do rebel.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

1. Universalism ignores the reality that some people cannot be forgiven for their sin, and Jesus did not die to atone for their sin, because their sin cannot ever be atoned for, because it is really eternally offensive--blasphemy of the Spirit. Jesus's sacrifice could not pay for that sin, because it is eternally offensive, whereas other sins are not eternally offensive (or else there is no difference between the blasphemy against the Spirit and all other sins).
In Leviticus 4, it says the process of forgiveness is this : the priest makes atonement, and then the LORD forgives the man. Some payment has to be made for sin, then, after payment, forgiveness follows.
Thus, for sins which cannot be forgiven, restitution can never be made, because there is no end to how offended God is, and He will repay them (eg, Satan, the Pharisees who blasphemed the Spirit, Hophni and Phineas) with fury forever.

2. Jesus also says, in the same Gospel, "No man can come to Me unless the Father draws him" "the reason you do not believe Me is because you are not My sheep", "the one who is of the truth hears My voice"--if they want you to believe He will draw "all" men, because of that verse, ask them to believe the other verses, and how they would reconcile the two seemingly mutually exclusive doctrines.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1. Universalism ignores the reality that some people cannot be forgiven for their sin, and Jesus did not die to atone for their sin, because their sin cannot ever be atoned for, because it is really eternally offensive--blasphemy of the Spirit. Jesus's sacrifice could not pay for that sin, because it is eternally offensive, whereas other sins are not eternally offensive (or else there is no difference between the blasphemy against the Spirit and all other sins).
In Leviticus 4, it says the process of forgiveness is this : the priest makes atonement, and then the LORD forgives the man. Some payment has to be made for sin, then, after payment, forgiveness follows.
Thus, for sins which cannot be forgiven, restitution can never be made, because there is no end to how offended God is, and He will repay them (eg, Satan, the Pharisees who blasphemed the Spirit, Hophni and Phineas) with fury forever.

2. Jesus also says, in the same Gospel, "No man can come to Me unless the Father draws him" "the reason you do not believe Me is because you are not My sheep", "the one who is of the truth hears My voice"--if they want you to believe He will draw "all" men, because of that verse, ask them to believe the other verses, and how they would reconcile the two seemingly mutually exclusive doctrines.

Thanks for your input concerning the unforgivable sins...

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks for your input concerning the unforgivable sins...

Yeah, that, by itself, debunks universalism; however, it requires a rethinking of the punishment of God's wrath, bc it seems that the people who go there go to become objects of God's Wrath, whereby they glorify God (God revealing His wrath glorifies Him), thus, little by little, repaying their debt, as Jesus says, "You will not get out of there until you have paid the uttermost farthing", etc, meaning they will pay but after be forgiven (seemingly).

 

[shepherdsword]

yes., thats true.

See, when I teach spiritual Truth......there needs to be pauses..... when its read, so that the Holy Spirit can minister revelation using the words.

But even moreso........when you read words that are God's spiritual truth.......they have to be spritually discerned........and that is not the same as just reading them, as if you are reading a religious dictionary that contains bible word definitions.

Let me show you what i mean.. @shepherdsword


"God is A Spirit" who "exists in Light"......and the bible is a "light for your path and a Lamp for your feet.""...
Jesus is the Spirit of Truth, and all the born again have been "translated from Darkness to Light", "because we have passed from death to life... and now exist as "seated in heavenly places "in Christ"..... who is the "light of the world"...which means that all born again Christians are "Children of the Light'.

Now see that?
That is mystical teaching.......which is teaching about God's LIGHT.... that is the "Light for Life".

So, this type of Mystical writing, that is only spiritual....has to be discerned by the Holy Spirit, inside the believer....and if they just try to read it like a dictionary, then it reads like CONFUSION.
And if a person is not really a Christian, but is just Religious and so forth, then they can forget it.

See a Real Teacher of The Revelation of the Bible and specifically the New Covenant, is teaching spiritual revelation, and that can't be read and understood correctly. It has to be spiritually discerned as that is what its all about.

So, that is why my 300 + Threads i have posted on this forum, and Thousands of Posts.....have a lot in them that is Christian Mystical....because... its revelation knowledge that im teaching as spiritual light that the Child of God can only discern by the "eyes of their understanding" being opened by the Holy Spirit.

See, to learn Christian Spirituality, is to become : EN-LIGHT-ENED. = .by the Holy Spirit.

We could also cite this as a warning to us all:

Lk 11:34-35 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

 

[Behold]

We could also cite this as a warning to us all:

Lk 11:34-35 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

"Dark" enlightenment is spiritual revelation but its not "of the Truth"..... as Jesus is teaching in your verse.

I have an older Thread here "How to spot a Dark Light"........and i might bump it.

So, Christian heretics, the deeper ones.....the Calvinists, the Mary Obsessed, The Book of Mormon obsessed, the JWs, the Mary Baker Eddy disciples... the Gnostics..... The Scientologists, the French Philosophers......The Buddha, .... and all similar have enlightnement, but its not based on The TRUTH, (John 14:6).. who is Jesus, .. as Jesus is THE TRUTH, and that is THE LIGHT that is True, and all others.. all other spiritual enlightement is dark truth, which makes those who possess it, a Dark Light.

 

[David Lamb]

"Dark" enlightenment is spiritual revelation but its not "of the Truth"..... as Jesus is teaching in your verse.

I have an older Thread here "How to spot a Dark Light"........and i might bump it.

So, Christian heretics, the deeper ones.....the Calvinists, the Mary Obsessed, The Book of Mormon obsessed, the JWs, the Mary Baker Eddy disciples... the Gnostics..... The Scientologists, the French Philosophers......The Buddha, .... and all similar have enlightnement, but its not based on The TRUTH, (John 14:6).. who is Jesus, .. as Jesus is THE TRUTH, and that is THE LIGHT that is True, and all others.. all other spiritual enlightement is dark truth, which makes those who possess it, a Dark Light.

If by Calvinists you mean those who, like me, believe in the Doctrines of Grace, I don't think it is right to link Calvinism to "the Mary Obsessed, The Book of Mormon obsessed, the JWs, the Mary Baker Eddy disciples... the Gnostics..... The Scientologists, the French Philosophers......The Buddha". Calvinists fully believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't think anyone should be labeled demonic or said to be expressing 'dark light' because they believe salvation is by grace and not of ourselves, but a gift from God. In fact I suspect this accusation may well violate forum rules.

 

[Behold]

If by Calvinists you mean those who, like me, believe in the Doctrines of Grace,

A Calvinist looks at the New Testament, and sees "Calvinism".

A Chrisitan who is not a TULIP person, looks at the bible, and does not SEE Calvinism.

And here is something to consider.

A Christian leads people to Christ.

A Calvinist tries to lead people (Christian or not) To CALVINISM.

That is not of God, as God never called anyone to Identify themselves as a "Calvinist", and God never called anyone to try to bring people into the doctrines of Calvin and TULIP and Hyper Calvinism.

God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.
The Holy Spirit is not a Calvinist.
Paul is not a Calvinist.
The NT does not Teach "TULIP"........as this is the INVENTION of a person, and His DISCIPLES... who created this "doctrine of devils" that says that The Cross of Christ is not for "the world", as John 3:16 teaches, but its just for the "predestined elect"...which is CALVIN's doctrine that was evolved as the "5 Points".

 

[Behold]

I don't think anyone should be labeled demonic or said to be expressing 'dark light' because they believe salvation is by grace and not of ourselves,

Its the people who do not agree, and will not accept that Salvation is "by Grace and not of ourselves" who are the Dark Lights.
The Heretics.
Luke 11:35

See, original Heresy, is.. (Jude teaches) .....to deny The Cross of Christ as the only Way that God will save you and keep you saved.

So, "heresy"... regarding Salvation theology, is to deny that...., and there are many ways that its denied, and here are but 2..

1.) "Limited atonement" is a denial of The Cross of Christ, because it changes God's Grace, John 3:16.... into "predestined only for some".

2.) "water baptism is required for Salvation".....and that is omitting The Cross of Christ, and teaching.."water washes away your sin".

So, the issue is........ when someone is one of those......does this mean that they never understood "Jusfication by Faith" and are not a Christian......or does it mean they are a Chrisitan, "fallen from Grace".?

So, that is "to be discovered" on a FORUM, because heretics have access to a lot of "cut and paste" and online sites, and they use all these, to respond, as if its THEIR teaching, and most of the time this "cut and paste" has some truth in it, mixed in with error, as the Devil's ministers are often clever devils.
So, in person, i can have them explain........and instantaly when they have no idea what is "FINISHED" on The Cross of Christ...., or what is "the BLood Atonement'... or what is "the imputed righteousness of Christ"........then i know im not dealing with a Believer, im dealing with a "religious but lost" person... @Carl Emerson