Why are Christians leaving their churches?

[Bruce-Leiter]

Did you receive the gift of tongues, Bruce?

No, my situation in established churches didn't need that gift. When I became a pastor, God gave me the gifts of preaching and teaching, which were needed in those situations. After all, in the three places where Paul gave lists of the gifts (Rome, Ephesus, and Corinth), he listed the gift of tongues only in one of them (the last one). Thus, he must have been describing the spiritual gifts in those churches. As a result, not all Christians need to have the gift of tongues.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

That's not what Jesus said... He said we would know them by their fruits

Are you fruity?





Ah yes, ye olde reformed twisting of scripture pops up yet again

Okay, I have a family member who has all the fruits of believers, but he has never felt a connection with Jesus. He accepts Christian values but not the personal relationship with God. The teens who have wandered away from the faith may or not be saved. We can never see their hearts the way God can.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

As a result, not all Christians need to have the gift of tongues

The Lord desires for all to have this gift in operation in their private prayer life.

The thing about not all speaking in tongues is speaking of public services where an interpreter is present... not all do this in a public setting.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered in articulate speech.

Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance)

to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh.

Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)


1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is speaking of our personal prayer language, which is something we do in our prayer closet and not in public.

Some have the gift of speaking a tongue in a public meeting for interpretation by another but should NOT be doing so if no interpreter is present.


1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

Paul is indicating here that ALL should speak in tongues referring to personal prayer since not all pray in tongues in a public setting where an interpreter is present.

Isaiah 28:11,12
For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

There is a rest and knowledge that comes thru speaking in tongues
(the knowledge received has to agree with God's written Word, otherwise it's not the Holy Spirit speaking)

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Triumph1300]

The Lord desires for all to have this gift in operation in their private prayer life.

But it's not a requirement for salvation, as some denominations think it is.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The Lord desires for all to have this gift in operation in their private prayer life.

The thing about not all speaking in tongues is speaking of public services where an interpreter is present... not all do this in a public setting.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered in articulate speech.

Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance)

to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh.

Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)


1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is speaking of our personal prayer language, which is something we do in our prayer closet and not in public.

Some have the gift of speaking a tongue in a public meeting for interpretation by another but should NOT be doing so if no interpreter is present.


1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

Paul is indicating here that ALL should speak in tongues referring to personal prayer since not all pray in tongues in a public setting where an interpreter is present.

Isaiah 28:11,12
For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

There is a rest and knowledge that comes thru speaking in tongues
(the knowledge received has to agree with God's written Word, otherwise it's not the Holy Spirit speaking)

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

@Dan Clarkson, You wrote, "Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

Paul is indicating here that ALL should speak in tongues referring to personal prayer since not all pray in tongues in a public setting where an interpreter is present."

Where specifically do you find the command that every believer should speak in tongues in their private prayers? It isn't in the three verses you cite. I speak to the Lord in my prayers all day long. Praying "in the Holy Ghost" doesn't mean tongues necessarily. Such prayers can be praise, thanks, confession, prayers for others, prayers for ourselves, tongues, and laments.

My goal is to fulfill Paul's command in 1 Thessalonians 5:17, "Pray without ceasing." Paul didn't say we are to seek praying in tongues. If you can find such a command, tell me.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You don't have to walk in health and healing to be saved either but it's promised in God's Word just like speaking in tongues

There are great benefits in speaking in tongues as well as being healthy

Feel free to live a life not pursuing all the Lord has made available.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

You don't have to walk in health and healing to be saved either but it's promised in God's Word just like speaking in tongues

There are great benefits in speaking in tongues as well as being healthy

Feel free to live a life not pursuing all the Lord has made available.

Sarcasm will get you nowhere, @Dan Clarkston. Just show me in Scripture where God commands that all Christians must speak privately in tongues.

By the way, God healed me from seven years of major depression more than 30 years ago, but he has left in my body four kinds of chronic physical pain as my thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) for those same years. He has taught me many spiritual lessons through those kinds of pain.

Thirteen years into my pain, I discovered that I was getting depressed again and prayed 60 laments, the way David did in the Psalms (Psalms 39 and 88, for example) for two months asking God to remove my pain. He declined to do it and gave me his peace to accept it (Philippians 4:6-7), because pride would have been the result in my preaching and now in my writing. He used pain to humble me the way he did for Paul.

You can accept the fact that God doesn't give the same gifts to all Christians, I hope.

 

[Triumph1300]

You can accept the fact that God doesn't give the same gifts to all Christians, I hope.

This guy got the gift of money???????

Quote:
Liberty University is paying disgraced former president Jerry Falwell Jr. about $5.5 million in addition to the nearly $10 million he received in severance and retirement, according to recently filed tax records.

The payment settles “all outstanding disputes on both legal and personal matters,” according to the Lynchburg, Virginia, school.

The settlement was announced last year, but neither Falwell nor the university disclosed financial details of the arrangement. Both parties acknowledged “errors and mistakes” in an official statement when Falwell left in scandal. The school and the former president said they “each take responsibility for their part in the disputes” but would not comment further.

End quote.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

show me in Scripture where God commands that all Christians must speak privately in tongues.

He made it available to all believers but did not command one must walk in it, just like He does not command us to walk in health even those it has been made available to all believers

Some believers do not desire all that the Lord wants them to have which works in the devil's favor since these believers have fewer weapons. They are taught wrong and as such cannot see and understand some things from God's Word due to their blindness caused by false doctrine.

This is akin to a general out in the field during a war deciding they don't need air support... it is available but since they refuse to accept it they end up experiencing a lot of defeat they otherwise wouldn't have experienced. That's too bad.

he has left in my body four kinds of chronic physical pain as my thorn in the flesh

The devil tricked you in to blaming this on God. Just like Paul experienced, the "thorn in the flesh" is a messenger of satan. It's a demon spirit the devil sent to keep a brutha down. According to scripture, Paul eventually recognized this and got free from the demons following him around

This is a tactic we see used in warfare to get the enemy to believe a major problem they are experiencing is not caused by their enemy when it actually is and they don't know it which causes them to lay down and just accept it.

You can accept the fact that God doesn't give the same gifts to all Christians, I hope.

I'm joint heirs with Christ Jesus so I have access to what the Lord has access to in my personal life.

If others don't want to take advantage of this, they'll just go without.

The devil works overtime to trick people in to not receiving all the Lord has made available to the Body of Christ

 

[Triumph1300]

Just show me in Scripture where God commands that all Christians must speak privately in tongues.

Bizarre. we can apply that to lots of things!

Show me in scripture I need to own a car.
Show me in scripture we need to eat supper at 6 pm.....or whatever...
Show me in scripture I need to fight over the gift of tongues.

I mean.....what's the big deal.... some speak in tongues, others don't.
No big deal in my eyes.

What bothers me is that some "none tongue speakers" tell us it's of the devil.

 

[Triumph1300]

You can accept the fact that God doesn't give the same gifts to all Christians, I hope.

I agree with that one.
Who wouldn't...it's up to God.

Some people cannot handle certain gifts and it might cause them to stumble in pride and a down fall.
(Lots of that happening.)

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Show me in scripture I need to own a car.

Well Jesus and His disciples were all in one Accord.

Apparently the Lord liked driving Hondas!

Some people cannot handle certain gifts and it might cause them to stumble in pride and a down fall.

Great excuse to not accept all that the Lord desires for one's life!

The old devil enjoys hearing Christians say this and spread it around.

It's in the devil's best interest that Christians embrace this lie of the devil.

 

[Triumph1300]

Great excuse to not accept all that the Lord desires for one's life!

Well the proof is in some big time TV Ministries, Hinn, Baker, Copeland... and others....they all started in the ministry and ran good ministries, they all got the gifts, etc.

Till the money and pride got a hold of them and caused their downfall.

Could not handle it all and wanted more riches.
Prime examples!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Could not handle it all and wanted more riches.

Well you should give ALL your stuff away and be homeless living under a bridge somewhere

We sure wouldn't want to see you get lifted up in pride not being able to handle money or anything.

 

[Triumph1300]

As a previous poster said, sarcasm will not get you anywhere.
------------------------------------------------------------

Sleeping on that bench....

Would be better than preaching the extremist prosperity gospel,
building mansions, buying jets, and go to hell doing it,
and covering sexual sin within the church at the same time and ignoring repentance.

 

[Jay Ross]

As a previous poster said, sarcasm will not get you anywhere.
------------------------------------------------------------

Sleeping on that bench....

Would be better than preaching the extremist prosperity gospel,
building mansions, buying jets, and go to hell doing it,
and covering sexual sin within the church at the same time and ignoring repentance.

You are not alone in sleeping on a bench out in the cold. There are many on this forum who are not realising that they too are sleeping on a bench while believing that they are sleeping in a great mansion.

 

[Kokyu]

This is interesting.. Christians Tell Why They Are No Longer Religious:

'#1 Southern Baptist​

Ever wondered why some folks who used to be really into Christianity are now saying “no thanks” to the whole faith thing? Well, we found a bunch of them on social media sharing their stories. From growing up with certain beliefs to discovering things that didn’t quite add up, these former Christians have some interesting reasons for losing their faith. Let’s dive into their tales and see what changed their minds.

Umm... to what end, exactly?

“Short answer: grew up Southern Baptist. When I started getting to the age where I could think critically about things, I just started noticing some inconsistencies. Specifically, I was told that people who believed in other religions would go to hell because they followed the “wrong” religion. What?? When religion is based a lot on where you are born, I just could not truly believe that people would be sent to hell for being born in the “wrong” country.”

This user’s critical reflection on his Southern Baptist upbringing struck a chord, particularly when confronted with the notion that people of different religions could face damnation solely based on their place of birth. The recognition that entire populations could be condemned for circumstances beyond their control raised questions about the fairness and logic of such a religious perspective, ultimately leading to a reconsideration of the user’s faith journey.

No one faces damnation solely on the basis of their place of birth. This is the faulty conclusion of one who hasn't all the pertinent information in hand.

#2 Mythology Class in College​

“Taking a mythology class in college and realizing all the different religions had similar origin stories of how earth and man were created and evolved, but the details differed based on the environment the people lived in and how far along they were technologically. Anything science couldn’t explain was the will of a higher power.

Not saying higher powers COULDN’T exist, just realized people are killing each other because theirs is the ‘right God’, but the people don’t realize that for all intents and purposes, they are all following the similar lessons/stories.”

In a broader context, the user’s revelation in their mythology class illuminated the commonality among diverse religions. As they explored various mythologies, they discerned parallels in the stories of Earth’s creation and human evolution. The realization that different cultures, despite varied details, shared fundamental narratives about higher powers and unexplained phenomena prompted a reconsideration of religious exclusivity.

This is another example of someone coming to a faulty conclusion because of ignorance and by thinking in over-broad generalities.

#3 Being Told Not to Question Faith​

“Being told to not question my faith made me lose my faith. If I cannot question what I believe in to better understand it, then it wasn’t worth believing in it in the first place. Or they are hiding something they don’t want me to find out, which makes me even more skeptical of it.”

For this user, the very act of questioning was essential for a deeper understanding of his beliefs. When this exploration was stifled, it raised doubts about the authenticity and solidity of the faith. The suppression of questions created a perception that there might be hidden aspects or inconsistencies that authorities sought to conceal. This lack of transparency and the inability to engage in an open dialogue eroded the user’s confidence in the faith, as genuine belief, for them, required a foundation built on inquiry and understanding.

If someone claims to be a Christian and then departs the faith for this reason, they demonstrate that they were not, in fact, a Christian. Simply making the claim to be a Christian doesn't make one a Christian. There is more to it than this. Far more. There is direct, personal, life-changing experience of God, which experience, if genuine, necessarily precludes apostasy.

#4 Unfulfilled Prayers​

“I was in a hard time for me and I started praying, attending catholic activities and doing lots of other things like these. I wasn’t feeling better. Years after I gave up doing these things and started taking care of me by myself and now I’m happy. So the faith gradually went away. I’m not fully an atheist though, I may be an agnostic but I’m not sure.”

In this instance, the user’s experience revolves around a personal struggle where traditional religious practices did not provide the expected relief or improvement. The subsequent shift towards self-care and the positive outcome generated skepticism about the effectiveness of religious rituals. The realization that personal agency and self-care contributed more significantly to their well-being than religious practices prompted a reevaluation of faith......https://milliondollarsense.com/christianity-to-atheism

God has protocols of approach we must observe, arising from who He is. If we fail to observe God's protocols, we will not encounter Him. He's very clear about this in His word, the Bible. (Ps. 66:18; Isa. 59:2; 1 Pe. 3:14; 5:6; Ja. 4:6-10, etc.)

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You are not alone in sleeping on a bench out in the cold. There are many on this forum who are not realising that they too are sleeping on a bench while believing that they are sleeping in a great mansion.

And some are on the extreme in the ditch on the other side believing one must be poor and have nothing (and be sick!) in order to be right with the Lord and to be close to Him.

That's not biblical either

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Umm... to what end, exactly?

Sadly, the end of giving up on one's faith results in them spending eternity in hell.

 

[mailmandan]

Sadly, the end of giving up on one's faith results in them spending eternity in hell.

Why don't explain to us what YOU believe faith IS and also explain to us what YOU believe the gospel IS and also what it means to BELIEVE the gospel?