What exactly is "the tribulation"? The bible speaks about "tribulation", not "the tribulation", which infers a specific one, so, what is THE tribulation?
IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
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Revelation 7:14 (WEB):
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
The Gospel of Christ
Well-Known Member
The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan
Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.
The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.
So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.
1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”
“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33
“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22
Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.
2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.
“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.
3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”
People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.
“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)
Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.
And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.
The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.
That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.
4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.
“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4
Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)
5. Daniel backs it up:
“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2
“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10
Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.
6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.
“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12
“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13
The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.
There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.
Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:
The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.
The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.
The elect are gathered after the tribulation.
There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.
And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).
Summary:
"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.
The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).
The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.
The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.
The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.
So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.
Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.
Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.
No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).
Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)
The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.
If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)
The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.
Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.
Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.
Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.
Jesus didn’t teach it.
So where did it come from?
John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”
The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.
So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…
Then who did?
Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.
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Not all translations include the word "the", such as the KJV. In fact in the interlinear includes the word "the", but not the word "great".
KJV
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The majority of translations include the word 'the' (49 of the 63 English translations listed on the Bible Gateway website). The Cambridge Bible Notes says:
great tribulation] Should be, the great tribulation: the article is strongly emphasised. It probably means, “the great tribulation foretold by the Lord,” St Mat_24:21: cf. Dan_12:1. For a similar use of the art. cf. ch. Rev_1:7, “the clouds.”
and Vincent's Word Studies says:
Lit., out of the tribulation, the great (tribulation). Rev., properly, gives the force of the article, “the great.”
You are also assuming rev 7 relates to a future yet to happen event and not a near term event that the 7 churches of Asia, to whom this was written, could relate to. You are also assuming Rev was written after 70AD. There was great tribulation at the time of the seige and fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. Read the account. Could this not be referring to that?
I don't know how you got all those assumptions from my post (#362) which simply quoted Revelation 7:14! Anyway, read the verse in context. It is referring to the great multitude in heaven, which was made up of people "out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages" (verse 9). That is not referring to the Israelites who were seiged in Jerusalem. At that time "Jerusalem is estimated to have housed tens of thousands of residents, with population estimates ranging from 25,000 to over 150,000" (from Wikipedia), whereas verse 9 says that the great multitude consisted of so many people that "no man could count". It also occurs after the 144,000 Jews from 12 tribes are "sealed on their foreheads" - there is no record of that happening in or before 70 AD.
The seige of Jersalem in 70 AD was a tribulation for Israel, but it was not as great a tribulation as described in Revelation 6, when Jesus opens the seven seals on the scroll - Revelation 6 (WEB):
(8) And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him.
(12) I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood.
(13) The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
(14) The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
(16) They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
and all this happens after Jesus takes the scroll from God, witnessed by the resurrected Church - Revelation 5:6-10 (WEB):
(6) I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
(7) Then he came, and he took it out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
(8) Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(9) They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”
So the Great Tribulation takes place after Jesus takes and opens the scroll, which is after the Church (symbolised by the 24 elders) has been resurrected and raptured. That hasn't happened yet, so the Great Tribulation can't be referring to the Jerusalem seige in 70 AD.
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Is the tribulation you're speaking of the one that's spoken of in Matthew 24?
And initially, since I typically read from the kjv, I simply looked at the verbiage therein which never refers to 'THE great tribulation', but only "great tribulation". Personally, I think the kjvis right in case.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Tribulation- basic meaning is a condition / state of Great Troubles / Suffering / Judgements.
Routinely “since the beginning of manKind”…manKind (to this day) has been subject to, plagued by…Troubled Times and Suffering…
Sometimes caused by “Weather” and many times “caused” by acts of men AGAINST men.
“THE Tribulation” … IS a Reference TO: Troubled Times AND Suffering “Caused and Allowed Expressly BY God”…. “Sent Down from Heaven”…On a Level that Dastardly Effects The WHOLE World (ie Face of the Earth and the Inhabitants (humans / animals) UPON the “face of the Earth”.
One such Great Tribulation sent down from Heaven Anciently Occurred / Passed.
Another Great Tribulation “to be Sent Down from Heaven “IS” a Prophetic Warning Revealed IN Scripture.”
An “Escape”…was taught and Offered for Ancient men…faithful TO God.
Their “Escape” was “by, through, of Gods Offering and Power”, to Raise the Faithful “manKind” up Above the Face of the Earth… thus “they” were MADE Delivered “From” the Tribulations “upon” the face of the Earth, in those days.
The “NEXT” Tribulations to BE Sent Down from Heaven….ALSO “Has” an Offering From God….For the Faithful to God…To BE MADE Lifted Up “Off the Face of the Earth…escaped / Delivered “From” …
Gods Sent Tribulations UPON the Face of the Earth.
Men on Earth…
Learn the Prophecy…trust the prophecy…ignore the prophecy…prepare for the Escape…don’t prepare for escape and deliverance…each hanging on their own FREEWILL Choices and Subject to the Consequences thereof, according to their Choices to Be With or Without the Lord God Almighty.
Glory to God,
Taken
Yes, but Matthew 24 is difficult to follow because Jesus is answering three questions, and it can be difficult to figure out which question is being answered by which verses. The three questions were, from verse 3, "when will these things be?" (the destruction of the temple buildings), "What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”.
Don't put all your trust in the KJV. In particular, the Old Testament is based on the Masoretic manuscripts which weren't finalised until the 7th and 10th centuries AD, and were deliberately altered to hide the pronunciation of God's name and to hide evidence to support that Jesus was the Messiah. For example, Psalm 40:6 says in the KJV,
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required".
The actual Hebrew that's translated as "mine ears hast thou opened" actually means "mine ears hast thou digged out"! The Masoretes had invented and added vowel and accent signs to the text, ensuring accurate pronunciation and interpretation, but they deliberately changed the meaning of the text in some places, such as Psalms 40:6. In the Septuagint (Greek translation from Hebrew manuscripts over 1,200 years older than the Masoretic manuscripts) says, (where it is Psalms 39:7) "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require".
This is as quoted by Paul referring to Jesus, in Hebrews 10:5-7 (KJV):
(5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
(6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
(7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
You should use all the available translations and information available to try to find the truth, and not just blindly trust one translation.
Young's Literal Translation (1863 - 1898) has:
(6) Sacrifice and present Thou hast not desired, Ears Thou hast prepared for me, Burnt and sin-offering Thou hast not asked.
whereas the newer Literal Standard Version (2020) has:
(6) Sacrifice and present You have not desired, || But a body You have prepared for me, || Burnt and sin-offering You have not asked.
Sometimes newer is better.
Then it's the same tribulation that's found in the parallel passages of Luke 21 which clearly states Jerusalem and is contrary to your previous statement. This is discussing the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, and in the parallel passages of Mark 13, it's referred to as affliction, suffering, oppression, as well as tribulation depending on what translations you choose to follow, but nevertheless, it's the fall of Jerusalem.
Luke 21:20-24 is about the seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but verses 25-28 isn't. Nobody saw "the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (verse 27) in 70 AD.
Let's not get sidetracked. We're talking about THE great tribulation, and you said Matthew 24 was it and it's not because it and Luke parallel passages are the same tribulation event and that's the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
yes, here it is in Luke 17
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
*********************
The carcass means the dead bodies and they are eaten by the birds. They are taken away to destruction.
While we remain with the Lord at His return.
Revelation 19
Christ on a White Horse
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
I wasn't getting sidetracked! Remember that I said "Matthew 24 is difficult to follow because Jesus is answering three questions, and it can be difficult to figure out which question is being answered by which verses" (post #370). I did not say that all of Matthew 24 is about the Great Tribulation. Likewise I said that Luke verses 25-28 were not about the seige of Jerusalem, because they're the verses referring to the Great Tribulation and Jesus coming to establish God's kingdom on the earth - Luke 21:25-28 (KJV):
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
As Joel wrote - Joel 2:30-31 (KJV):
(30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
(31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV):
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The Gospel of Christ
Well-Known Member
Sounds like we agree the ones “taken” in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are taken to judgment, not raptured to glory.
That alone dismantles the whole Left Behind doctrine.
Now the only thing left is timing — and 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it clear: it’s loud, final, and visible.
No secret escape — just resurrection and return.
! agree with that.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Since even those who pierced. killed Christ will see Him, I wonder if they are raised up to witness the return firsthand, or do they see him from hell, or do they see Him later at the judgment.
The resurrection is on the Last Day.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
So in your doctrine, you are theorizing that Before the trib, ( as Jesus says, normal life, activities, commerce, marriage,) that half of a group are killed?
Who are they, these pretrib taken ones?
Why are they taken years ahead of the trib ending ( pretrib)?
Luke 17 is about the return of Christ
and we read the same phrasing and message in Matthew 24, which also includes the return of Christ
Not theorizing anything
24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
