IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Scott Downey]

See there in Luke 17, Jesus is teaching about the sudden destruction that Paul wrote of at the Day of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5

New King James Version

​

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And why is it happening at night? Well the sun, moon, stars are go dim or dark, so nowhere is the sun shining on the earth at His returning.

Luke 17

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[keithr]

Sounds like we agree the ones “taken” in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are taken to judgment, not raptured to glory.
That alone dismantles the whole Left Behind doctrine.

How can that be? The judgement occurs at the end of the Millenial Age, 1,000 years after Jesus has set up God's kingdom on the earth. Then all of the "dead" (i.e. all those who at that time have not attained eternal life, which is everyone except the resurrected Church), will be judged. Nobody will be taken from the earth during or after the Great Tribulation to be judged, although the whole of the 1,000 years is a judgement 'day', a time of restitution/restoration to perfection and a trial, with the final test and judgement occurring at the end of the 1,000 years. (The second resurrection of all that have died as non-Christians must occur at the beginning of the 1,000 years.)

Revelation 20:7-12 (WEB):

(7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,​

(8) and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

(9) They went up over the width of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them.​

(10) The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

(11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.​

(12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

Now the only thing left is timing — and 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it clear: it’s loud, final, and visible.

It's will not be visible. The dead Christians are not resurrected as humans, they're raised as invisible spirit beings. The Christians alive at that time are changed in a twinkling of an eye to also be invisible spirit beings. Then all those invisible spirit beings, who are now like Jesus in nature (1 John 3:2), will be caught up to meet the invisible Jesus in the atmosphere. Jesus will only be seen by humans after the Tribulation when he comes to establish God's kingdom ("Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things", Acts 3:21).

The loud "shout" and "trumpet" noise occur in heaven when God commands Jesus to return to the earth to collect his bride; they won't necessarily be heard on the earth, it's for Jesus to hear - 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (UASV+):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.​

(17) Then we who are alive, who remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​

 

[rebuilder 454]

Luke 17 is about the return of Christ
and we read the same phrasing and message in Matthew 24, which also includes the return of Christ
Not theorizing anything

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

So in your "fact" of your doctrine, you are theorizing that Before the trib, ( as Jesus says, normal life, activities, commerce, marriage,) that half of a group are killed?
Who are they, these pretrib taken ones?

Why are they taken years ahead of the trib ending ( pretrib)?

 

[rebuilder 454]

See there in Luke 17, Jesus is teaching about the sudden destruction that Paul wrote of at the Day of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5

New King James Version

​

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And why is it happening at night? Well the sun, moon, stars are go dim or dark, so nowhere is the sun shining on the earth at His returning.

Luke 17

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Who are those 50% taken?
Why pretrib?

 

[Scott Downey]

So in your "fact" of your doctrine, you are theorizing that Before the trib, ( as Jesus says, normal life, activities, commerce, marriage,) that half of a group are killed?
Who are they, these pretrib taken ones?

Why are they taken years ahead of the trib ending ( pretrib)?

Huh? You are not making any sense to me.
What is with the pretrib mention?
Luke 17 does not say anything about the tribulation.
Why does it have to mention it?

Luke 17 is as a shortened version of Matthew 24
It is more highly focused, less broad explanation of the coming of Christ, the focus is on the sudden destruction of the wicked.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is like you have this broad storyline, and Jesus explores a smaller part of the whole thing in Luke 17.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Huh? You are not making any sense to me.
What is with the pretrib mention?
Luke 17 does not say anything about the tribulation.
Why does it have to mention it?

Luke 17 is as a shortened version of Matthew 24
It is more highly focused, less broad explanation of the coming of Christ, the focus is on the sudden destruction of the wicked.

The analogy Jesus made is historical fact mixed with rapture pretrib ingredients.
Those ingredients are my focus , as was Jesus focus.

You can reframe it.
But those ingredients are still there.
Note the " before the flood" ingredient.
Note the "half taken" ingredients.
Note the normal life SETTING the ones taken are removed in.

Jesus used 2 actual stories.( lot and noah)
In both stories the rapture is pretrib.

But what is the most bizarre elephant in the room, is Jesus saying (in His pretrib 2 examples) to watch and be ready.

Postrib doctrine changes that to the ones taken, "wicked sinners", to watch and be ready.

Or maybe the postribbers are to be ready to passively stay and be passively protected? ??

Just plain silly.

Maybe it really is what Jesus said that one will be taken and the other one left?
Noway is it the group of Earth's population, but a subgroup.
Wow, possibly the church?

Amazing that 7 sentences later in mat 25 the EXACT same group is taken...50%!!!
And that is TO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I looked more into Matthew 24:40-41 and need to correct myself.........the one taken is taken in judgment as you say....the one left will enter the earthly kingdom

You had it right the first time.
Nobody but the righteous taken preflood
Nobody but the righteous taken preSodom. Nobody but the righteous taken when Jesus was taken to Egypt.