THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

[Marilyn C]

Jesus said He would build His church, because He understands the Church global to be a singular entity--just as Paul says "you are members of His body--one is an eye, one is a hand". Are you saying Jesus is only building the "ekklesia of Israel", a made-up term, but He isn't building congregations of believers that aren't Jewish?
You really are ridiculous.

`This is he who was in the Church in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us....` (Acts 7: 38)

I`m saying that God recognizes the two churches/ekklesia that He made - Israel and the Body of Christ.

And denigrating another just makes yourself look cheap.

 

[GracePeace]

`My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you.` (Gal. 4: 19)

That is Paul talking to HIS disciples and using pictorial language as is `bearing fruit to God.` (Rom. 7: 4)

Right, you asked when we became "feminine"--there's your answer.

 

[GracePeace]

Mmm I don`t seem to have that scripture in my Bible about Thomas going to India.

Oh, OK, Ms. "Bible Scholar", the Apostles never went to the nations--they disobeyed Jesus Christ.
No, we don't have Thomas going to India in the Bible, but we do have Peter going to the Gentiles (which is another word for "the nations").

As to the `good news,` yes Peter and Paul agreed that Jesus was Lord and Messiah and that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles, however, where do you read of Peter teaching about the Body of Christ? That was the revelation given to Paul which Peter could not understand. (2 Peter 3: 16)

1. Peter taught that we were all being built up into a spiritual house of God, so he did see that we were all one entity, but, indeed, Paul was given a revelation about the truth that we don't have a record of Peter teaching--that doesn't mean it was something that applied only to "Pauline" believers (which sort of idea Paul denounces as "carnal"--"I am of Paul"). Do you know what "revelation" means? It means something is being "revealed". That doesn't mean it isn't already true, it just means that someone is being given an understanding about a reality that already is.
2. It does not follow from the fact that Peter did not teach about the body of Christ, that, "ergo", that was what Peter was talking about when he said that some things Paul writes about are difficult to understand. How is it difficult to understand? I can think of other topics, like faith and works and justification, that men have debated about endlessly, that Peter could have been referring to. And getting that topic wrong could actually affect your salvation, as he says--"to their own destruction"--but misunderstanding a simple idea like "the body of Christ" would be a difficult feat, and it likely wouldn't result in someone's damnation.

 

[GracePeace]

`This is he who was in the Church in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us....` (Acts 7: 38)

I`m saying that God recognizes the two churches/ekklesia that He made - Israel and the Body of Christ.

And denigrating another just makes yourself look cheap.

It makes no sense, actually : based on your own logic, if anyone would be a part of "congregation of Israel", it would be Paul. It's just an arbitrary decision you've made to not follow your own logic and have him in "congregation of Israel", but part of something else.

 

[GracePeace]

@Marilyn C
Anyway, again, got to do some sleeping.

 

[Lizbeth]

Now when someone is ridiculing another it seems to show that they do not just rely of God`s word but seek to put down another to try and boost up themselves. Not good. And just shows a weakness in discussing.

Amen. Agree with this sister.....I'm not on board with the bad attitude that some are repeatedly showing around here.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus called him a small stone. Jesus built His church on an immovable massive connected rock face.
Peter's rock is detached small therefore can be moved. Peter is petros masculine noun.
Jesus' rock upon which He builds His church is petra feminine noun.


By Jesus' choice of words there can be no way Christ would build His house on a small pebble that can be moved.

The Scriptures teach against ranks among the apostles, superior, chief, prominent, head, greater etc.
Not one scripture in the entire new testament gives any of the apostles any of these titles.
The silence of the scriptures should silence any contemplation leaning in this direction.


The verses we have discussed show prominence among apostles to not be the case.
Jesus condemned this idea when the apostles themselves wondered about who would be greatest in the Kingdom.


Galatians 2:2,
- and I went up by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the gentiles but privately to those of reputation lest by any means I might run in vain, or had run vain

Two groups that Paul preached the gospel to in this verse.
Gentiles. No gentile was ever given apostleship.
Those of reputation were the jews.Those who were appointed elders and apostles.

Reputation separates Christian brethren in the church from apostles and elders in the church.
It does not seperate apostles into some of reputation(leaders) and some not of reputation.

The private discussion is recorded in Acts 15. Apostles and elders of the church came together to discuss the matter of the Jews binding circumcision and commanding that the gentile Christians keep the law of Moses.

Paul repeats this twice Galatians 2:6 ; 9
Leading men are referred to as Pillars of the church.
That word is reference to elders and apostles in the church.
Specifically James, Cephas, John.
Pillar simply means men that were respected in the church.
This has NOTHING to do with ranking among the apostles.
Proof of this is Cephas was not even an apostle!!! Yet he was one of the Pillars.
So in no way is the context implying greater apostles over other apostles as Pillars in the church.



Your reasoning does not equate to prominence because Peter is recorded as speaking more than the others.
What if Matthew's preaching was recorded instead of Peter's preaching in Acts chapter 2?
Would that make Matthew prominent over Peter?

That's not evidence that's speculation.
If the apostles were here today and all 12 held a gospel meeting at a local church.
It was a 7 day meeting.
Matthew preached Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.
Peter preached on Wednesday.
John preached Thrusday, Friday and Saturday.

Would you reason Matthew and John were prominent apostles over Peter?
Just because they spoke more at the meeting?


Have you forgotten Paul was not yet chosen?
Trying to add up who is recorded the most on preaching is not proof of prominence.
It's not even a fair way of reasoning since Paul has not yet even been given the opportunity to begin his preaching.
So of course Peter preached early on as Paul was not yet preaching!!!
Add up who preached the most from Acts 2 to Acts 9 and Peter wins.
This reasoning cannot be used to come to a sound conclusion that Peter was prominent.

Notice we dont even know how much preaching the other apostles did. The scriptures did not record everything that took place among the apostles evangelism We have missing data to try and come to an honest conclusion of who is the head apostle based on numbers alone.
This reasoning is flawed.


Agreed,
Again, The Scriptures have answered this doctrine. It is unscriptual.

John 13:16,
- verily I say unto you the servant is not greater than his Lord, neither he(Peter, John) that is sent is greater than he(other apostles) that sent him(Peter, John)

Acts 8:14,
- now when the apostles which were in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God they  sent unto them Peter and John

Cephas is another name for Peter (John 1:40-42)....Paul was referring to the foremost apostles. Again, not in an official way, just that in any group some will naturally emerge as leaders and that is often in an unspoken way. And leadership God's way is not about superiority, it's about servanthood and sacrifice for the sake of others. But I think I will drop the subject for now brother. I don't want to make this seem over-important.

 

[Doug]

Doug, the promises are not hidden in some obscure text. They are declared plainly throughout Scripture—open to all who have ears to hear.

Listen:

Galatians 3:14 — “...that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

Ephesians 1:3-5 — “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ... He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.”

Romans 4:16 — “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed...”

Hebrews 6:12 — “That you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”


These are the promises: adoption, inheritance, Spirit, eternal life, kingdom authority—all secured by faith in Christ.

Doug, this isn’t conjecture. This is the gospel, the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16).

If you seek to deny or minimize these promises for the Church, you fracture the unity Christ died to create.

Turn to the Word. Receive the fullness of the gospel. Stop dividing what God has joined.

The Bride is one—Jew and Gentile, united in Christ, heirs of promise, reigning with Him.

Just give me few of the promises you are heir to...... you dont have to even give me chapter and verse.....this shouldnt be difficult since you say they are evident

 

[Lizbeth]

Where does it say that Adam and Eve were figures of Christ & His Body? Now you can`t have it both ways - body and bride. The symbol of the wife/bride was in the OT and for Israel. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

The scripture says Adam was a figure of He who was to come (Rom 5:14). And we have the first Adam, and last Adam. Like Eve was born out of the side of the firs Adam, the church was born out of the side of the last Adam. We need the Holy Spirit to help us see this.

 

[Lizbeth]

We are joined to Christ who is the holy root which nourishes and supports us. Israel does not do that. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

`I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!.` (Rom. 11: 1)

The Israel of God (of which we are branches and members of that commonwealth) is what receives the nourishment from the root.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus said His kingdom rulership was not of this world. Meaning No one gave Him His authority to rule. it is the Father who does that. (Ps. 2: 6) Jesus is over all God`s kingdom - heaven and earth. (Eph. 1: 22 - 22)

The Body of Christ does not have 12 tribes. Nonsense.

No, Jesus said His KINGDOM is not of this world but is within/among them. And He said to the religious Jews that "If I by the finger of God cast out devils then no doubt the kingdom has come to you." And He and the apostles were preaching that the kingdom is NIGH....

 

[Lizbeth]

You can butt in anytime

I dont know anymore than scripture says .........the Bible doent elaborate about outer darkness other than saying they are cast out of the kingdom

that would be the kingdom of heaven, right? So no eternal life.

 

[Doug]

that would be the kingdom of heaven, right? So no eternal life.

Yes they would be cast out of the kingdom of heaven which is the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth where Christ reigns for a thousand years

Compare these verses

[Mat 8:12 KJV] 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mat 22:13 KJV] 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mat 25:30 KJV] 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In the verses above it is speaking of believing Israel who do not receive positions in the kingdom because they were unfruitful. For eternal life they only had to believe on his name, that he was Christ the Son of God (John 20:31)

[Mat 13:42, 50 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ...
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

These above are the wicked that are thrown into hell

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes they would be cast out of the kingdom of heaven which is the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth where Christ reigns for a thousand years

Compare these verses

[Mat 8:12 KJV] 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mat 22:13 KJV] 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mat 25:30 KJV] 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In the verses above it is speaking of believing Israel who do not receive positions in the kingdom because they were unfruitful. For eternal life they only had to believe on his name, that he was Christ the Son of God (John 20:31)

[Mat 13:42, 50 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ...
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

These above are the wicked that are thrown into hell

David's fallen tabernacle (which was only a shadow of the true spiritual things to come) has already been raised and it includes believing Gentiles. David's kingdom was just allegorical, a figure, for the kingdom of heaven of which Christ is King and He is ruling and reigning now. We need to think spiritual......have our minds and affections on things above, not on things of earth....having our eyes fixed not on what is seen but what is unseen....as the scriptures say. Things of earth in scripture were only types/shadows/allegories/ensamples for heavenly/spiritual truths.

Act 15:14-20

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

 

[Doug]

David's fallen tabernacle (which was only a shadow of the true spiritual things to come) has already been raised and it includes believing Gentiles. David's kingdom was just allegorical, a figure, for the kingdom of heaven of which Christ is King and He is ruling and reigning now.

Totally disagree.......kingdom not allegorical and Christ is not reigning on earth yet

[Isa 2:4 KJV] 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

All the nations are at peace now?????

 

[Lizbeth]

Totally disagree.......kingdom not allegorical and Christ is not reigning on earth yet

[Isa 2:4 KJV] 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

All the nations are at peace now?????

We're told to compare spiritual with spiritual in scripture, so we need to think spiritually....to see and hear with spiritual eyes and ears what the SPIRIT is saying.....that verse was fulfilled with the giving of the gospel of peace to the Gentiles. YES, believing Gentiles of the nations are at peace with God and with one another, and also with believing Israel (since Christ has abolished in His flesh the enmity between us contained in ordinances and made one new man out of the two).

We need to truly take this to heart and BELIEVE it:

Col 3:1-2
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Looking for an earthly utopia tripped up the Jews who didn't have the spirit of God to understand. It tripped them up badly so as to reject true salvation. And it similarly is tripping up, and will trip up Christians who are likewise looking for an earthly utopia rather than looking for a new heavens and earth. It has potential to cause many to accept a false messiah who will appear to be fulfilling that promise in an earthly way.

To understand Revelation we need to work forward from the earlier scriptures and look at it through the lens of those earlier scripts, comparing spiritual with spiritual.....not work backwards from Revelation trying to force and wrest earlier scrips to fit our erroneous literal interpretation of Rev. Revelation is chock full of ALLEGORY from the earlier scrips....especially the Old Testament.

 

[GracePeace]

Just give me few of the promises you are heir to...... you dont have to even give me chapter and verse.....this shouldnt be difficult since you say they are evident

1. There is no question about whether or not we who are in Christ, the Seed of Abraham, are heirs : 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
2. The passage tells you at least one of the blessings (those who don't have it are "cursed" bc they do not rely on the promise, but on the law and good works) we inherit : "14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the nations, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

 

[Marilyn C]

Right, you asked when we became "feminine"--there's your answer.

A doctrine is NOT based on symbols and pictorial language. Doctrine is clear, straight forward language as Eph. 1 - 4 speaking of the New Man coming to the Perfect Man.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh, OK, Ms. "Bible Scholar", the Apostles never went to the nations--they disobeyed Jesus Christ.
No, we don't have Thomas going to India in the Bible, but we do have Peter going to the Gentiles (which is another word for "the nations").

1. Peter taught that we were all being built up into a spiritual house of God, so he did see that we were all one entity, but, indeed, Paul was given a revelation about the truth that we don't have a record of Peter teaching--that doesn't mean it was something that applied only to "Pauline" believers (which sort of idea Paul denounces as "carnal"--"I am of Paul"). Do you know what "revelation" means? It means something is being "revealed". That doesn't mean it isn't already true, it just means that someone is being given an understanding about a reality that already is.
2. It does not follow from the fact that Peter did not teach about the body of Christ, that, "ergo", that was what Peter was talking about when he said that some things Paul writes about are difficult to understand. How is it difficult to understand? I can think of other topics, like faith and works and justification, that men have debated about endlessly, that Peter could have been referring to. And getting that topic wrong could actually affect your salvation, as he says--"to their own destruction"--but misunderstanding a simple idea like "the body of Christ" would be a difficult feat, and it likely wouldn't result in someone's damnation.

Actually, I did go to Bible College.

And did Peter want to go to the Gentiles. No! he had to be taken by the collar and shown that what God calls clean is clean. So, no Peter did not understand or obey the Lord until the Holy Spirit had to get to him.

Yes, we are all in God`s Great Kingdom and are God`s family, however each group has a different inheritance.

 

[Marilyn C]

The scripture says Adam was a figure of He who was to come (Rom 5:14). And we have the first Adam, and last Adam. Like Eve was born out of the side of the firs Adam, the church was born out of the side of the last Adam. We need the Holy Spirit to help us see this.

Actually, we are born of the `incorruptible seed` through the word of God.

`...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides for ever. ` (1 Peter 1: 23)