Learning about Orthodoxy

[Lizbeth]

Interesting . . .

So, if the Early Church got their doctrines from God’s Word – WHY is it that Protestants don’t?
The Early Church believed in Baptismal Regeneration and Infant Baptism.
(Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine)

The Early Church believed in the Real Presence (i.e., the Eucharist).
(Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Theodore, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine)

I agree with the first part in RED.
The second part is a LOT more squishy . . .

Your use of “extra biblical” implies that it is not explicitly stated in Scripture. First of all - NOT everything is found explicitly in the Bible. Sola Scriptura is a 16th century, man-made invention. This is what Jesus told the future leaders of His Church:

Matt 16:19, Matt. 18:18
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

He gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on His behalf.

As I’ve shown - that mirror needs to be turned toward yourself and ALL non-Catholics and non-Orthodox . . .

By my reckoning, and I think most born again believers, the "early church" was the church under the apostles......everything that came after that is suspect and requires much sifting and testing, because Paul prophesied that after he departed wolves would come into the church, not sparing the flock. We need to believe him and accept this as truth. If even in the time of the original apostles they were having to constantly battle and warn against false teachers/preachers and false doctrines, and antichrists, then we have to know a downward slide began in earnest after they died.

Wolves are a picture of the hungry fleshly carnal nature of man.....as opposed to the life of the Spirit. But Jesus knew this was going to happen, because as He said, He was sending us out as sheep among wolves....it is something we have to overcome.....this is part of spiritual growth and the Lord sifting and testing us. The church of Jesus Christ is in a spiritual war and we need to learn and take to heart the teachings of Jesus and the original apostles really well to discern between what is true and what is false and thus overcome the wiles and onslaught of the enemy of our souls.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

WHY is it that Protestants don’t?

Because they were greatly influenced by catholics seeing they came out of the catholic church and brought most of the false doctrines they learned from the catholic church with them when they left.

The Early Church believed in Baptismal Regeneration and Infant Baptism.

Those believing such are heretics as these doctrines were not taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

The Early Church believed in the Real Presence (i.e., the Eucharist).

Those believing such are heretics as these doctrines were not taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

I agree with the first part in RED.

If you actually did you would leave the catholic church and quit following heresy

The second part is a LOT more squishy . . .

This is why you don't leave the catholic church and continue walking in heresy

As I’ve shown...

All you showed was heresy and commitment to continue in heresy which we already knew.

Thank you for those uninformed responses, we really didn't appreciate any of them

 

[Lizbeth]

I want to state the current appeal of Orthodoxy for my husband and I.

--- We don't believe the terms "faith alone" and "salvation by faith alone" from Martin Luther's reformation are biblical. So we essentially got alienated from Protestantism.

---Corruption, greed, and greasy grace in our experience with various protestant churches.

---The Orthodox Church stands out for consistency whereas modern Protestant churches are always changing and splitting.

---Scripture and the tradition of the saints seems to lend itself to more consistency in the Orthodox Church.

---Modern churches have let in a lot of feminist ideology that we don't agree with.

Protestantism in general is in a state of apostasy these days. It can be hard to go it alone, without fellowship and some kind of structure that we know of as "church life". But if we obey the Lord to come out of the harlot Mystery Babylon in all it's forms, that is where most of us will be...alone. When I complained to the Lord about needing fellowship He promptly showed me the scripture that says "When I called Abraham I called him alone....." That's not what I wanted to hear sister, it wasn't and still isn't an easy pill to swallow. (And temptations to look to men and their "churches" and veer out of God's will for me come along from time to time.) But this is an opportunity and time of putting down deeper roots in the Lord and drawing from His well of sustenance, and no other well...because truth be told only HIS well is pure and untainted. He knows the way that we take, we are not really alone.

Scripture says that at the time of Jesus' coming it was a dark time and the sheep were scattered......Judaism at the time had long departed the purity and simplicity of biblical belief....they were similarly in a state of apostasy and hypocrisy and many Jews knew it and couldn't subscribe to it any longer and left off from the Mystery Babylon harlot of their time, and thus were scattered. I believe that is a pattern for the time of His second coming. And when He comes in a personal way by His Spirit, He will strengthen and confirm the sheep. God will not fail us. So I just want to encourage you to encourage your husband to really seek the Lord and HIS will in this...to be led and guided by Him.

 

[Wynona]

I am reading a lot of comments against traditions of men. Protestant denominations have these too.

 

[Wynona]

Protestantism in general is in a state of apostasy these days. It can be hard to go it alone, without fellowship and some kind of structure that we know of as "church life". But if we obey the Lord to come out of the harlot Mystery Babylon in all it's forms, that is where most of us will be...alone. When I complained to the Lord about needing fellowship He promptly showed me the scripture that says "When I called Abraham I called him alone....." That's not what I wanted to hear sister, it wasn't and still isn't an easy pill to swallow. (And temptations to look to men and their "churches" and veer out of God's will for me come along from time to time.) But this is an opportunity and time of putting down deeper roots in the Lord and drawing from His well of sustenance, and no other well...because truth be told only HIS well is pure and untainted. He knows the way that we take, we are not really alone.

Scripture says that at the time of Jesus' coming it was a dark time and the sheep were scattered......Judaism at the time had long departed the purity and simplicity of biblical belief....they were similarly in a state of apostasy and hypocrisy and many Jews knew it and couldn't subscribe to it any longer and left off from the Mystery Babylon harlot of their time, and thus were scattered. I believe that is a pattern for the time of His second coming. And when He comes in a personal way by His Spirit, He will strengthen and confirm the sheep. God will not fail us. So I just want to encourage you to encourage your husband to really seek the Lord and HIS will in this...to be led and guided by Him.

There is wisdom in being okay with solitude. That has been us for years now. It helped us grow in some ways.

The difference for us in finding a church will definitely be their compliance with Scripture.

I can't be Protestant at this point. I don't think Sola Scriptura is a divinely inspired concept and I definitely don't believe in "faith alone" doctrine.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I am reading a lot of comments against traditions of men. Protestant denominations have these too.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we should jump in to even MORE traditions of men if we desire to walk in Truth, to know the Lord, and spend eternity with Him.

Godly doctrine from the Lord can only be found in His Word.

UN- godly doctrine not coming from the Lord is found outside of God's Word.

The whole reason the Lord had His Word put in to written form was to establish what Godly doctrine is.

The enemy seeks to continually claim that we should look outside of God's Word so he can trick people in to accepting UN- godly doctrine not coming from the Lord and he makes it look so appealing and makes it sound so right.

That's the bait leading to the trap.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't think Sola Scriptura is a divinely inspired concept

Welcome to deception!

God's Word does not actually teach faith alone.

 

[Wynona]

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura but that does not mean I don't measure everything against God's Word.

What I specifically believe is that everybody's personal private interpretation of Scripture is not some perfect revelation.

Most members here already agree with this to some extent because theyreject certain types of doctrine from other believers despite their claim that they too are led of the Holy Spirit.

Protestants reject the Pope but many church leaders act like mini Popes. They cherry pick which Scripture they want to fixate on and split churches over their own private interpretation.

I am not claiming to be in any doctrine authority but I know Paul wanted us all to "speak the same things". Orthodox with the same divine liturgy throughout their churches is the closest I've seen any group get to this, hence my desire to learn about them.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura but that does not mean I don't measure everything against God's Word.

That's a conflicting statement. If one really does not believe God's Word is the only source of Truth, then why would they bother to measure everything against God's Word?

Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Question is, does Jesus really know what He's talking about or not?

Paul wanted us all to "speak the same things"

No, Paul did not say that.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that thru Paul.

Orthodox with the same divine liturgy throughout their churches is the closest I've seen any group get to this, hence my desire to learn about them.

But what they teach is not "divine" because they don't follow just God's Word, instead they teach things that come from outside of God's Word that the Lord never taught

 

[BreadOfLife]

By my reckoning, and I think most born again believers, the "early church" was the church under the apostles......everything that came after that is suspect and requires much sifting and testing, because Paul prophesied that after he departed wolves would come into the church, not sparing the flock. We need to believe him and accept this as truth. If even in the time of the original apostles they were having to constantly battle and warn against false teachers/preachers and false doctrines, and antichrists, then we have to know a downward slide began in earnest after they died.

Wolves are a picture of the hungry fleshly carnal nature of man.....as opposed to the life of the Spirit. But Jesus knew this was going to happen, because as He said, He was sending us out as sheep among wolves....it is something we have to overcome.....this is part of spiritual growth and the Lord sifting and testing us. The church of Jesus Christ is in a spiritual war and we need to learn and take to heart the teachings of Jesus and the original apostles really well to discern between what is true and what is false and thus overcome the wiles and onslaught of the enemy of our souls.

Wolves have always been loving among the Sheep, spreading their falsehoods and heresies. Even during the time of the Apostles, there were Judaizers and heretical groups like the Gnostics. Later, the Church dealt with the Arians, Marcions, Nesrtorians, Sabellianism, Modalism, Manicheans, etc. Jesus guaranteed that HIS Church would NOT succumb to darkness (Matt. 16:18).

One needs to look not only at history – but at the practices of the Early Church to find the Church thar Jesus was talking about. Too many people make the false assertion that the era of the “Early Church” ended with the last Apostle. That view not shared by ALL Protestants – just the ones who want to erase any evidence that the Church practiced and believed in thing like the Eucharist, Infant Baptism, praying for the dead.

Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the Apostle John. Tradition tells us that he was the child that Jesus was speaking about in (Matt. 18:3).

Matt. 18:2-3
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them.

He gave us a picture of the true Church at the end of the 1st century:

The Catholic Church
You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1 [A.D. 107]).

Structure of the Church
In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles (vishops). Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 107]).

The Eucharist
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 107]).

Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his blood, and one single altar of sacrifice —even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 107]).

Confession
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 107]).
For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop (ibid. 8).

Against the idea of Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura)
I heard some saying, “If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel”; on my saying to them, “It is written”, they answered me, “That remains to be proved.” But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity. (Letter to the Philadelphians, Chapter 8 [A. D. 107]).

 

[Wynona]

If one really does not believe God's Word is the only source of Truth, then why would they bother to measure everything against God's Word?

I'm saying you can use God's Word  and measure the interpretation against the historical interpretation of the early church fathers.

This prevents heresy and constant splintering of denominations due to people's private interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Lizbeth]

There is wisdom in being okay with solitude. That has been us for years now. It helped us grow in some ways.

The difference for us in finding a church will definitely be their compliance with Scripture.

I can't be Protestant at this point. I don't think Sola Scriptura is a divinely inspired concept and I definitely don't believe in "faith alone" doctrine.

I believe we dont' have to define ourselves by anything other than Christ Jesus. And we are members of His body, rather than of a denomination or group as such. Identifying ourselves by teacher or denomination is spoken against in scripture. "I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos..", etc, because that is divisive and basically idolatrous.

Scripture itself speaks of itself on thiswise.....that it can make us wise unto salvation, that it is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness....and that it cannot be broken as Jesus said. Whereas the teachings of men are everywhere warned against. That doesnt' mean all teachings given through men are wrong...God gives teachers to the church...but it means they need to be tested and tried...and we can't do that well until we have the pure, inspired writings of scripture well stocked and stored in our being in conjunction with God working in our lives and hearts to purify us.

We are saved initially by faith alone since we don't have any works of faith beforehand. Salvation by "faith without works" is scriptural. But after faith comes we need to show fruits in keeping with repentance. And I would say our very first little work is to confess Jesus by mouth after coming to faith. "Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and you will be saved". By works is faith made perfect.

By all accounts that I've heard, the early reformers weren't perfect in every respect or in every teaching, but they sure did the right thing in getting free of the RCC and returning to the foundational roots of the faith....which is salvation by faith and that not of our own. That was a much needed sea-change. And I pray we will never stray from the simplicity of Christ again, because that indicates and leads to false gospels and a false spirit, as the scripture indicates.

Forget if I already posted this passage on this thread, but here it is just in case:

2Co 11:3-4

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus guaranteed that HIS Church would NOT succumb to darkness (Matt. 16:18).

Really? What is the falling away about then, I wonder? and the Lord saying He would send strong delusion to all who received not a love of the truth? Spewing the lukewarm out of His mouth? Removing the lampstand? In the end His church is really only those who endure to the end and overcome.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

historical interpretation of the early church fathers.

Yeah as they slid off in to heresy departing from the Doctrine of Christ.

That's the trap is putting early church fathers as being equal with God's Word. They are not.

Once people accept this they have been ensnared in the devil's trap that was laid for them.

The Lord (thru Paul) warned deception would come when Paul died

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[Wynona]

Yeah as they slid off in to heresy departing from the Doctrine of Christ.

That's the trap is putting early church fathers as being equal with God's Word. They are not.

Once people accept this they have been ensnared in the devil's trap that was laid for them.

So you're saying the minute Paul died the early church fathers became heretical?

Orthodoxy was the first church. Catholicism split from that, then came Martin Luther and the five Solas.

If heresy was introduced the moment Paul died, Protestantism is way downstream from that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because they were greatly influenced by catholics seeing they came out of the catholic church and brought most of the false doctrines they learned from the catholic church with them when they left.

Tell me then – WHERE is the historical record of this “Church” that rejected Baptismal Regeneration, the Eucharist, the Real Presence, Infant Baptism, etc.??

You can scream, “False doctrine!” all day long. But, unless you have some actual evidence – your objections fail . . .

Those believing such are heretics as these doctrines were not taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

How do YOU know?? Were you there?

If you’re going to use a pathetic argument like Sola Scripture – then you have to provide unmitigated PROOF that this false doctrine is taught in the Bible.

Hint: it’s NOT . . .

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

If you actually did you would leave the catholic church and quit following heresy

So I can be like YOU?
Soa Scriptura is one of the biggest heresies that has sucked millions away from the truth . . .

All you showed was heresy and commitment to continue in heresy which we already knew.

Thank you for those uninformed responses, we really didn't appreciate any of them

You WILL - when you eventually wake up . . .

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura but that does not mean I don't measure everything against God's Word.

What I specifically believe is that everybody's personal private interpretation of Scripture is not some perfect revelation.

Most members here already agree with this to some extent because theyreject certain types of doctrine from other believers despite their claim that they too are led of the Holy Spirit.

Protestants reject the Pope but many church leaders act like mini Popes. They cherry pick which Scripture they want to fixate on and split churches over their own private interpretation.

I am not claiming to be in any doctrine authority but I know Paul wanted us all to "speak the same things". Orthodox with the same divine liturgy throughout their churches is the closest I've seen any group get to this, hence my desire to learn about them.

Priests, robes, incense, rites/rituals, liturgies, tabernacle, etc are all trappings of old covenant Temple worship. The new covenant is in the new way of the Spirit which is the simplicity of Christ, or it is not the new covenant at all.

Yes, we are exhorted to speak the same things...speaking the revealed word of God, which is by the Spirit...the true doctrine that Jesus brought and that the apostles taught. But Jesus sent us out as sheep among wolves...He sent us out into a battle in other words.......He knew the hungry uncrucified flesh of man was going to taint things and cause problems and divisions and that we would need to overcome it. Growing in the faith is not cut and dried and neatly tied up with a bow, it can be a messy journey/war and sometimes two steps forward, one step back. It is better to have the life of the Spirit with a messy battle, than to have certainty and neat and tidy formulas without the life of the Spirit. It's tempting and much easier to have a neat and tidy religion than it is to follow Christ. I think one reason Israel of old wanted a King Saul was because they were weary of the "uncertainty" of following and trusting an invisible God.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So you're saying the minute Paul died the early church fathers became heretical?

No, I'm not saying that. The Lord said that in His Word thru Paul in Acts 20:27-30and it's a warning! Jesus has a similar warning:

Matthew 24:4,5
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in My Name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

*Many includes those claiming "I am anointed" that are deceiving many (false teachers)

There were false teachers even before Paul left, but while he was here he circulated his letters to combat heresy and He was a known Apostle so most looked to Him for leadership concerning doctrine.

Today's "orthodoxy" is not actually orthodox as they teach and practice traditions that were not taught by Jesus or taught by Jesus thru His Apostles. Considering the early church fathers as being equal with God's Word is a trick of the devil.

The early church fathers are NOT Jesus and His Apostles, so the things they taught and said are not inspired of God as scripture is.

God's Word is THE standard, not the early church fathers.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

they were weary of the "uncertainty" of following and trusting an invisible God.

Which is not walking in faith trusting the Lord.

 

[amigo de christo]

Protestantism in general is in a state of apostasy these days. It can be hard to go it alone, without fellowship and some kind of structure that we know of as "church life". But if we obey the Lord to come out of the harlot Mystery Babylon in all it's forms, that is where most of us will be...alone. When I complained to the Lord about needing fellowship He promptly showed me the scripture that says "When I called Abraham I called him alone....." That's not what I wanted to hear sister, it wasn't and still isn't an easy pill to swallow. (And temptations to look to men and their "churches" and veer out of God's will for me come along from time to time.) But this is an opportunity and time of putting down deeper roots in the Lord and drawing from His well of sustenance, and no other well...because truth be told only HIS well is pure and untainted. He knows the way that we take, we are not really alone.

Scripture says that at the time of Jesus' coming it was a dark time and the sheep were scattered......Judaism at the time had long departed the purity and simplicity of biblical belief....they were similarly in a state of apostasy and hypocrisy and many Jews knew it and couldn't subscribe to it any longer and left off from the Mystery Babylon harlot of their time, and thus were scattered. I believe that is a pattern for the time of His second coming. And when He comes in a personal way by His Spirit, He will strengthen and confirm the sheep. God will not fail us. So I just want to encourage you to encourage your husband to really seek the Lord and HIS will in this...to be led and guided by Him.

Yes the sheep sure are scattered sister . But still the LORD led some of us together .
I have known you now for over thirteen years . HE giveth the sheep fellowship .
JUST our fellowship AINT with the ungodly .
We are scattered now more than ever . But still the LORD has brought some of us together to encourge one another my dear sister .
And me and another sister and a few others also do bible reads and prayers together over the phone .
THE sheep are but a remnant sister . But JESUS HAS the sheep and as you well know
The sheep dont love mixture and ear tickling things
The sheep love Truth for GOD has shed HIS OWN LOVE Upon their hearts . Nothing less will do for a sheep .
Stinkbait is anything less than the whole truth to the sheep . They dont bite on catfish stinkbait lines .
THEY FEED FROM THE SHEPARD OF THE SHEEP whose line IS TRUTH , HIS WORDS BE TRUTH .