WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[GodsGrace]

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Two works of God, reconciliation and then later on, salvation. The church believes that it is the reconciliation that saves. This is not the teaching of the early years and is considered to be 'hard teaching'. They taught the Via Triplex - the third way. Three stages and the last being salvation - saved from sin no less.

The three stages being Purgation, Illumination and then Deification (Theosis) or in other words, salvation. Two crossings of water for the children of Israel since they were following God, not one crossing that brought them into reconciliation.

Need to do more thinking on this.

Interesting.
The early church taught very simple teachings.
One had to believe in Jesus as being God and as having risen.
They then taught that a person had to be baptized and had to obey God.

So, I'd say that, yes, it's the reconciliation that saves us,,,but YOU'RE saying that it's not.
??

What is the third way?
I've never heard of one.

This is from the Didache...the teaching of the Apostles....
written about 90AD and accepted as valid and authentic:

Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. Woe to him who receives; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who receives not having need shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what. And coming into confinement, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape from there until he pays back the last penny. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.

source: Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

 

[Hepzibah]

Interesting.
The early church taught very simple teachings.
One had to believe in Jesus as being God and as having risen.
They then taught that a person had to be baptized and had to obey God.

So, I'd say that, yes, it's the reconciliation that saves us,,,but YOU'RE saying that it's not.
??

More insight last night. Reconciliation, is becoming united again with someone with whom one has become alienated. So there was a relationship to start with. It is not the case when one becomes aquainted with another with whom there was no past connection. This is where the church is wrong and not in accordance with the ECF's.

What is the third way?
I've never heard of one.

It is the way of three steps or stages. The purgation is the stage where the believer goes through trials to convict him of sin and show him the need for cleansing.

This is from the Didache...the teaching of the Apostles....
written about 90AD and accepted as valid and authentic:

Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. Woe to him who receives; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who receives not having need shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what. And coming into confinement, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape from there until he pays back the last penny. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.

source: Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Thanks yes there are two ways - one leads to death and the other leads to live but WITHIN that life one, there are three steps.

 

[Behold]

More insight last night. Reconciliation, is becoming united again with someone with whom one has become alienated.

Reconciliation........ is Salvation.

Its : "sinners" are being RECONCILED to Holy GOD, for the last 2000 yrs....... through The Cross of Christ.

That is "Spiritual Union with God".....regained.

Adam lost it for us all.........and Christ who is the 2nd Adam, offers it as The Cross of Christ.....to all who will beleive and be reconciled to God.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a GIFT......>"the Gift of Salvation"..and its FREE.

 

[Hepzibah]

Reconciliation........ is Salvation.

Its : "sinners" are being RECONCILED to Holy GOD, for the last 2000 yrs....... through The Cross of Christ.

That is "Spiritual Union with God".....regained.

Adam lost it for us all.........and Christ who is the 2nd Adam, offers it as The Cross of Christ.....to all who will beleive and be reconciled to God.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a GIFT......>"the Gift of Salvation"..and its FREE.

Adam did not have 'spiritual union'. He was made innocent but was instructed that he had to feed from the tree of life. However he did not and lost his innocence.

True reconciliation means to be made perfect as He is perfect.

 

[Behold]

Adam did not have 'spiritual union'.

The reason God told them both......"not to eat of that Tree" or you will "surely die"......is because..

"God is A Spirit" (The Holy Spirit)...who made Adam the same, = inside His body of earth........So, that is the Sprit of God, causing a body to become "made alive" Spiritually., when "God breathed into Adam".

Notice that the Holy Spirit is likened to a wind......and you don't know know which way it blows. John 3:8 @Hepzibah

So, When Adam disobyed God.......He died......Just as God said....And notice that God didnt tell Him....."in a few hundred years."

So, this instant Death......is spiritual....its to lose Spiritual Union with God = who is Life.

Recall that Jesus said...>>"I have come to give you LIFE"...and "all who believe in me, i give unto you Eternal life".

That is GOD's Life.. being regained as Spiritual Union with God. = born again.

See that?.....That is literally to be restored to God, as Spiritual union in HIM.....which is to become "born again", as a "new Creation in Christ."

= "ONE with God".

 

[Hepzibah]

The reason God told them both......"not to eat of that Tree" or you will "surely die"......is because..

"God is A Spirit" (The Holy Spirit)...who made Adam the same, = inside His body of earth........So, that is the Sprit of God, causing a body to become "made alive" Spiritually., when "God breathed into Adam".

Notice that the Holy Spirit is likened to a wind......and you don't know know which way it blows. John 3:8 @Hepzibah

So, When Adam disobyed God.......He died......Just as God said....And notice that God didnt tell Him....."in a few hundred years."

So, this instant Death......is spiritual....its to lose Spiritual Union with God = who is Life.

Recall that Jesus said...>>"I have come to give you LIFE"...and "all who believe in me, i give unto you Eternal life".

That is GOD's Life.. being regained as Spiritual Union with God. = born again.

See that?.....That is literally to be restored to God, as Spiritual union in HIM.....which is to become "born again", as a "new Creation in Christ."

= "ONE with God".

No. He died spiritually as we all have a spirit but was not in union with God. His spirit was alive yes but he was not in union. It does not say that in scripture. His spirit died and ours dies too after we reach the age of accountability but before then, as innocent children, we are not in union.

 

[Behold]

No. He died spiritually as we all have a spirit but was not in union with God.

Adam "died spiritually" and that is the LOSS of Spirtual Union with God.

So, 2nd Adam came to restore spiritual union with God for these........>"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

And He does......ONE BELIEVER at a time..., daily, for the last 2000 yrs.

His spirit was alive yes but he was not in union.

Its God's Spirit that made Adam alive......so, that is "ONE with God"........= Spiritual Union.

It does not say that in scripture.

"you shall surely die"... is the Scripture.

And Adam and Eve didnt realize what God was saying.......and Satan deceived them into not believing it at all when He told them "you shall not surely die"..
Satan knew they would lose spiritual union......as he was not concerned so much with their body dying, which is the other Death, that came to them, because of their REBELLION.

So, they "transgressed" and their SIN separated them from God.... = "God is A Spirit".

Your SIN separated you from God's Spirit,........ and if you have believed in Christ by Faith.... then God has Spiritually birthed you, by His Holy Spirit, as "ONE with God"... 'IN CHRIST">...and that is Spiritiual Union with God.....restored, that Adam lost for you, and for us all.

Water Baptism does not do this for you.....as water is just water.

 

[Hepzibah]

Adam "died spiritually" and that is the LOSS of Spirtual Union with God.

So, 2nd Adam came to restore spiritual union with God for these........>"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

And He does......ONE BELIEVER at a time..., daily, for the last 2000 yrs.



Its God's Spirit that made Adam alive......so, that is "ONE with God"........= Spiritual Union.



"you shall surely die"... is the Scripture.

And Adam and Eve didnt realize what God was saying.......and Satan deceived them into not believing it at all when He told them "you shall not surely die"..
Satan knew they would lose spiritual union......as he was not concerned so much with their body dying, which is the other Death, that came to them, because of their REBELLION.

So, they "transgressed" and their SIN separated them from God.... = "God is A Spirit".

Your SIN separated you from God's Spirit,........ and if you have believed in Christ by Faith.... then God has Spiritually birthed you, by His Holy Spirit, as "ONE with God"... 'IN CHRIST">...and that is Spiritiual Union with God.....restored, that Adam lost for you, and for us all.

Water Baptism does not do this for you.....as water is just water.

I do not believe in water baptism regeneration.

If Adam & Eve were in spiritual union with God then they would not have been deceived by Satan. Satan cannot do that if one is in union with God. We are delivered from the wiles of the devil in this union. They did not have that.

 

[Hepzibah]

Ephesians 6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

 

[Behold]

I do not believe in water baptism regeneration.

Neither does God believe in "baptismal regeneration"..
So, you both are right.

Its the MaryCult (the original water cult)....that teaches that "water washes away your sin", as if the Blood of Jesus is just "nothing at all".

See how that false teaching on WATER .......insults The Cross of Christ ?

If Adam & Eve were in spiritual union with God then they would not have been deceived by Satan.

Christians are deceived all the time by The Devil.

For example....

Calvinsts.
MaryCult
Mormons
JW's

Paul says that REAL Christians are often "fallen from Grace" and "mind Blinded , and have become "in the Flesh".
So, this happens to a Spirit Filled Christian......as all Christians are the "temple of the Holy Spirit".

HAve you noticed that Forums are nothing but fighting and disagreements?

Its because the Devil has some confused, and some on the way, while others are not really Christians, and believe they are one., and they are posting verse and Threads, in their confusion and lost spiritual condition..........

So, all of that is found on a Fourm like this one, and so, "let the fighting begin" as the darkness continues....as that is going to produces it always.....and does.

See any Christian forum, for the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong. The spiritual washing or purification of the soul (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) at the moment of salvation is not Spirit both times. Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

You also do not post scripture properly, but because it's my thread and I'm very interested, I DID look up your verses (which should have been posted)...

Indeed some do suggest that the WATER is the word of God.
Also, the LIVING WATER, as you've also posted.

So YOU MUST BE BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT
would mean.
YOU MUST BE BORN OF THE WORD OF GOD AND THE SPIRIT...

OK
But HOW does just the word make you be born again?
It has to be accepted...it's not the word itself that makes one saved.

Jesus told Nicodumus that being born again REQUIRES water and the Spirit.

This would mean that ONLY those that hear the word can be saved and Romans 1:19 would not support this idea.

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Not to change the topic,,,just thinking out loud.

 

[Hepzibah]

Christians are deceived all the time by The Devil.

For example....

Calvinsts.
MaryCult
Mormons
JW's

You think they are Christians? Now I know why your discernment is right off.

 

[Behold]

YOU MUST BE BORN OF THE WORD OF GOD AND THE SPIRIT...

What you posted, is true, but its the same thing.

"The washing of regenration" is by the Holy Spirit, is the same as understading that Jesus is the Living water, and the Word is the Spirit, because its the washing by the water that is the word""".......ect, ect.
Its all a Spiritual situation....

So, to get there, you have been BORN........again.

So, what is the first birth?
Its not water baptism......is your Mother and you, being born of your mother.

 

[Behold]

You think they are Christians? Now I know why your discernment is right off.

Yes, Paul teaches that its a Christian who """falls from Grace""", as an Unbeliever does not have God's grace, yet.
So, only a CHRISTIAN, can "fall from Grace", and most of the time, this happens because someone deceives them into a false theology.
Paul says its the CHRISTIAN who is "bewitched" by someone........ and "falls from Grace".

Like.....these deceivers.

Calvinism
MaryCult
Mormon
JW
Mary Baker Eddy

 

[GodsGrace]

Neither does God believe in "baptismal regeneration"..
So, you both are right.

Its the MaryCult (the original water cult)....that teaches that "water washes away your sin", as if the Blood of Jesus is just "nothing at all".

See how that false teaching on WATER .......insults The Cross of Christ ?



Christians are deceived all the time by The Devil.

For example....

Calvinsts.
MaryCult
Mormons
JW's

Paul says that REAL Christians are often "fallen from Grace" and "mind Blinded , and have become "in the Flesh".
So, this happens to a Spirit Filled Christian......as all Christians are the "temple of the Holy Spirit".

HAve you noticed that Forums are nothing but fighting and disagreements?

Its because the Devil has some confused, and some on the way, while others are not really Christians, and believe they are one., and they are posting verse and Threads, in their confusion and lost spiritual condition..........

So, all of that is found on a Fourm like this one, and so, "let the fighting begin" as the darkness continues....as that is going to produces it always.....and does.

See any Christian forum, for the same.

Not to change the topic.....but have you noticed that there is no fighting in the CC?
It seems to be we Protestants that cannot agree on some topics that seem to be important.

For example:
The NT does teach that baptism washes away sin...
is for the forgiveness of sin....
and this was believed also by those that the Apostles taught.
In Acts we find that a couple of persons that believed were immediately baptized since water was available.

I believe the reformation was necessary....
but I also do NOT like where it has brought US....the CHURCH of Christ.

You believe in OSAS....a belief that did not even exist until after the reformation.
You do not believe in baptismal regeneration (not sure what that even is) but we are instructed by Jesus Himself to be baptized.

We refuse to study church history because those that came after the Apostles were not "inspired",,,even though they were taught by the Apostles themselves. Seems to me they knew more about what Jesus taught than Joel Osteen - he just came to mind. Add many other preachers/teachers to the list.

Do you think those that came after the Apostles knew more,
or do you think we know more today...many learning doctrine that was "invented" after the reformation.
OSAS
PREDESTINATION
and more.

 

[GodsGrace]

What you posted, is true, but its the same thing.

"The washing of regenration" is by the Holy Spirit, is the same as understading that Jesus is the Living water, and the Word is the Spirit, because its the washing by the water that is the word""".......ect, ect.
Its all a Spiritual situation....

So, to get there, you have been BORN........again.

So, what is the first birth?
Its not water baptism......is your Mother and you, being born of your mother.

So you're saying PHYSICAL BIRTH is the FIRST birth?
I thought this is what you had said....and I agree.

I'm trying to understand what the other member believes and I believe it's that the WATER is the Word of God and I do not agree with that...although some scholars do agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Paul teaches that its a Christian who """falls from Grace""", as an Unbeliever does not have God's grace, yet.
So, only a CHRISTIAN, can "fall from Grace", and most of the time, this happens because someone deceives them into a false theology.
Paul says its the CHRISTIAN who is "bewitched" by someone........ and "falls from Grace".

Like.....these deceivers.

Calvinism
MaryCult
Mormon
JW
Mary Baker Eddy

Behold,
I don't think the Mary Cult should be included in your list.
Those that venerate Mary also know about Jesus and worship HIM.
Otherwise, they are not following the doctrine/teaching of the CC.

I DO agree that too much emphasis is put on Mary....
but, OTOH, we don't have ANY emphasis on Mary...or, let me say, not enough.

 

[Behold]

Not to change the topic.....but have you noticed that there is no fighting in the CC?

Really?

Is that why millions of Catholics were hoping that Pope Francis would DIE, before He did?
They are fighting inside their own cult right now over the fact that Francis ended the Latin Mass.

An example is that a devout Catholic named Mel Gibson, who directed "the Passion", has been for years, against this last Pope's attempt to lead the CC into "gay priests" and "no Latin mass" and other such directives that many in the CC, despise, openly, right now.

ou believe in OSAS....a belief that did not even exist until after the reformation.

OSAS, was created to resist Paul's Doctrine of Grace., 2000 yrs ago.

Its created by Religious Jews, to get Christians to lose the correct understanding of God's Grace.... and they teach that "God's Grace is a license to sin".
Jude teaches that they twisted "God's Grace" into "Licentiiousness"...= the idea that its "license to sin"....and this deceive people into that mindset, and then they can't trust Christ to keep them saved.
So, OSAS is designed by religious Jews, 2000 yrs ago, to keep you inside SELF Righteousness.
That is what the Devil designed this false teaching to produce in a Christian.

The correct understanding of What Christ has accomplished for us on The Cross.... is not just that He Saves us, but that He keeps us saved........as if He doesnt.. then who keeps you saved?

The person who does not understand God's ETERNAL GIFT of Salvation......thinks....>>>"oh, i have to confess sin, and behave properly, and be water baptized, and try to be like Christ, and keep commandments......as i try to save MYSELF" ....because i dont have any Real faith in Christ to keep me saved.
They lost it.

 

[Behold]

Behold,
I don't think the Mary Cult should be included in your list.
Those that venerate Mary also know about Jesus and worship HIM.

Catholics are taught to Pray to Mary, who delivers their Prayers to Jesus.
They are taught that Mary is working with Jesus, hand in hand, to save Humanity.
So, this is MaryCult theology, that tries to connect Mary and Jesus as both necessary for Salvaiton.
And that denies Jesus, all credit due Him, alone.
So, that is demonic theology, that is presented sweetly as "precious mary" the "mediatrix".... and many are decieved by it.
Billions in fact.

 

[GodsGrace]

More insight last night. Reconciliation, is becoming united again with someone with whom one has become alienated. So there was a relationship to start with. It is not the case when one becomes aquainted with another with whom there was no past connection. This is where the church is wrong and not in accordance with the ECF's.


It is the way of three steps or stages. The purgation is the stage where the believer goes through trials to convict him of sin and show him the need for cleansing.


Thanks yes there are two ways - one leads to death and the other leads to live but WITHIN that life one, there are three steps.

Hi H,
I also agree with what @Behold posted in no. 183...
because we ORIGINALLY had a relationship with God
but lost it through Adam.

But yes, reconciliation means what you've stated.
It's MORE than just forgiving someone because they've wronged you.
It means to RESTART a relationship with them as you had before.

I could agree that a person goes through some kind of experience first....
maybe attention to the fact that they've sinned...
maybe the fact they they come to understand that they need God...

so OK, that would be the first.

The second is accepting God and to me that would be the final step.

What do you think is the next step?
later...