Textual Criticism observations

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KUWN

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Notice how hard it is to reconstruct the original text:

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat

ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but

the wrod as a wlohe.





People are often times in fearful shock with I inform them that the Greek manuscripts

that preserve the New Testament have over 500,000 variants. The above paragraph

well illustrates what is at stake with variants. Does anyone have a difficult time understanding

the above paragraph? If not, you will find the Greek manuscripts a breath of fresh air compared

to the above paragraph. At a quick glance, I count 69 words in the above paragraph with

34 variants or errors in spelling. But what is at stake? What can be disputed?



What is comforting with the 500,000 variants in the manuscripts that support the New Testament

is this: what are the odds of finding one more manuscript that will alter the meaning of the existing

New Testament. That is, we already have over 5,900 Greek manuscripts, and comparing these

to each other, there are over 500,000 variants; what would be the odds of finding a new Greek

manuscript that will significantly alter the meaning of the Bible.

In fact, as we find more and more Greek manuscripts, the number of variants goes

up and up, and yet despite all this, the ability to piece together what the original New Testament

said becomes EASIER AND EASIER.



Assume the jumbled paragraph above is a copy of an original paragraph, and we wanted to determine

what the original paragraph actually said. With just this one copy we can get pretty close. But

if we were to find another paragraph written with such atrocities, we would at least have another

source to compare it to in determining what the original paragraph actually said. If we were to find

5,000 such poorly written paragraphs, we could with relative certainty reproduce the original document.



The next time someone tells you that the Bible is full of mistakes, you better thank your lucky

stars that that is indeed the truth, for without that very fact we would be at a loss in reconstructing

the original New Testament. It is this unusual fact that gives evidence to a supernatural preservation

of the Bible. How? 500,000 errors and not one cardinal doctrine is at stake!



As a side note, I had the opportunity to "talk" (via email) with one of the world's leading critics of our

New Testament, Dr. Bart Ehrman. In his own words, although

with much reluctance, he conceded that "we can reproduce over 95 percent of what the

New Testament originally said." To which Dr. Wallace of Dallas Seminary adds, "...and not one

major doctrine of the Christian faith is at stake within HIS disputed 5 percent." (What Dr. Wallace

means by "HIS disputed 5 percent" is that most conservative scholars contend that the original

New Testament can be reconstructed to within 99.6 percent. As more manuscripts are dug up,

that percent will approach 100 percent, maybe even attaining 103 percent.)

If we end up with 103 percent, we then need to take away the dross.

Just some thoughts,
 

nedsk

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If I write:

"I never said you stole my pencil."

Tell us what I mean
 

KUWN

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If I write:

"I never said you stole my pencil."

Tell us what I mean

"I" never said you stole my pencil!
I NEVER said you stole my pencil!
I never SAID you stole my pencil!
I never said YOU stole my pencil!
I never said you STOLE my pencil!
I never said you stole MY pencil!
I never said you stole my PENCIL!
 

pandaflower

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Notice how hard it is to reconstruct the original text:

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat

ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but

the wrod as a wlohe.





People are often times in fearful shock with I inform them that the Greek manuscripts

that preserve the New Testament have over 500,000 variants. The above paragraph

well illustrates what is at stake with variants. Does anyone have a difficult time understanding

the above paragraph? If not, you will find the Greek manuscripts a breath of fresh air compared

to the above paragraph. At a quick glance, I count 69 words in the above paragraph with

34 variants or errors in spelling. But what is at stake? What can be disputed?



What is comforting with the 500,000 variants in the manuscripts that support the New Testament

is this: what are the odds of finding one more manuscript that will alter the meaning of the existing

New Testament. That is, we already have over 5,900 Greek manuscripts, and comparing these

to each other, there are over 500,000 variants; what would be the odds of finding a new Greek

manuscript that will significantly alter the meaning of the Bible.

In fact, as we find more and more Greek manuscripts, the number of variants goes

up and up, and yet despite all this, the ability to piece together what the original New Testament

said becomes EASIER AND EASIER.



Assume the jumbled paragraph above is a copy of an original paragraph, and we wanted to determine

what the original paragraph actually said. With just this one copy we can get pretty close. But

if we were to find another paragraph written with such atrocities, we would at least have another

source to compare it to in determining what the original paragraph actually said. If we were to find

5,000 such poorly written paragraphs, we could with relative certainty reproduce the original document.



The next time someone tells you that the Bible is full of mistakes, you better thank your lucky

stars that that is indeed the truth, for without that very fact we would be at a loss in reconstructing

the original New Testament. It is this unusual fact that gives evidence to a supernatural preservation

of the Bible. How? 500,000 errors and not one cardinal doctrine is at stake!



As a side note, I had the opportunity to "talk" (via email) with one of the world's leading critics of our

New Testament, Dr. Bart Ehrman. In his own words, although

with much reluctance, he conceded that "we can reproduce over 95 percent of what the

New Testament originally said." To which Dr. Wallace of Dallas Seminary adds, "...and not one

major doctrine of the Christian faith is at stake within HIS disputed 5 percent." (What Dr. Wallace

means by "HIS disputed 5 percent" is that most conservative scholars contend that the original

New Testament can be reconstructed to within 99.6 percent. As more manuscripts are dug up,

that percent will approach 100 percent, maybe even attaining 103 percent.)

If we end up with 103 percent, we then need to take away the dross.

Just some thoughts,
Great post. It's refreshing.

Have you yet looked at the new testament fragments?

I think it is easy to look at our Bibles and think the Greek NT texts were the same . Whole pages.

But they were not.
 

Gottservant

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The stars are arranged by the Holy Spirit, to reflect the words of scripture.

How are you going to textually criticise the stars?
 

pandaflower

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The stars are arranged by the Holy Spirit, to reflect the words of scripture.

How are you going to textually criticise the stars?
We are to Revere the stars? And feel for them what we feel for the Bible?
 

Gottservant

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We are to Revere the stars? And feel for them what we feel for the Bible?
Who said 'revere the stars'? I said "they are arranged by the Holy Spirit".

But to your second point 'feel' is too general a word, we are supposed to be "comforted" by them.
 

KUWN

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Great post. It's refreshing.

Have you yet looked at the new testament fragments?

I think it is easy to look at our Bibles and think the Greek NT texts were the same . Whole pages.

But they were not.
I worked in Textual Criticism when I worked for Dr. Dan Wallace of Dallas Seminary. I traveled with him to England and then I went on ahead in Athens. I was in Athens to find new manuscripts and found some in the Benaki Museum.
 

KUWN

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The stars are arranged by the Holy Spirit, to reflect the words of scripture.

How are you going to textually criticise the stars?
Textual Criticism does not involve itself with the stars. Textual Criticism deals with objectivity, not the subjective.
 

KUWN

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Who said 'revere the stars'? I said "they are arranged by the Holy Spirit".

But to your second point 'feel' is too general a word, we are supposed to be "comforted" by them.
This is what I mean, it is total subjectivity. Tell me what the Big Dipper means.
 

pandaflower

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I worked in Textual Criticism when I worked for Dr. Dan Wallace of Dallas Seminary. I traveled with him to England and then I went on ahead in Athens. I was in Athens to find new manuscripts and found some in the Benaki Museum.
I very much enjoy the video lectures by Dr. Wallace.
 
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Gottservant

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This is what I mean, it is total subjectivity. Tell me what the Big Dipper means.
The big dipper and the stars around it reflect the verse "I and My Father are One", and "you shall not tempt the Lord your God"

If you want to know more, please ask the Holy Spirit.
 
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KUWN

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The big dipper and the stars around it reflect the verse "I and My Father are One", and "you shall not tempt the Lord your God"

If you want to know more, please ask the Holy Spirit.
No, the big dipper reflects the verse "God is love" and "he works all things together for the good."
This is what the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

Since yours is different, how are we going to determine which passages the big dipper represent.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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No, the big dipper reflects the verse "God is love" and "he works all things together for the good."
This is what the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

Since yours is different, how are we going to determine which passages the big dipper represent.

Man ya'll are majoring in minors!

How the stars are lined up in the heavens is irrelevant seeing the New Testament is not directing us to focus on this.

You guys are wasting brain time that could be spent thinking about something that actually matters! :IDK:
 
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Gottservant

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No, the big dipper reflects the verse "God is love" and "he works all things together for the good."
This is what the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

Since yours is different, how are we going to determine which passages the big dipper represent.
I can see there is truth to the interpretation the Holy Spirit has given you.

Do you want to try another constellation, or do we agree that the way things are arranged is by the Holy Spirit?
 

doctrox

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Do you want to try another constellation, or do we agree that the way things are arranged is by the Holy Spirit?
That statement highlights the gist of this entire thread and the dangers of "textual criticism."

"Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumbling block of their iniquity before their face. Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet, I, the Lord, will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols. That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols." - Ezekiel 14:3-4

When Ezekiel says that when the people "cometh to the prophet" to seek the will of the Lord, they are inquiring of God through the authority of "the prophet" - who the New Testament tells us is JESUS CHRIST. For example, in the book of John we learn that when Jesus preached, the people said "Of a truth, this is the prophet." (John 7:40) Peter also said that Jesus fulfilled the prediction of a great prophet that would arise in Israel when he stated "A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you...." (Acts 7:37) There are many Scriptural texts proving that Jesus is "the prophet."

Ezekiel is told by the Lord that when "every man" comes to him to seek his will and they "setteth up idols" in their hearts, God will answer them "according to the multitude of his idols" (Ezekiel 14:3-4). First we need to see that an "idol" that is in the heart can be anything that comes between the believer and God. Because idolatry is a concept (as opposed to a statue that one worships), we must realize that an idol can be any thought, belief, bible version, or even doctrine that we want to believe.

When God says he will answer the inquirer "according to" the idol, he is saying he will not tear down the false beliefs that exist in the hearts of the believers. Remember, the text says the believers are the ones that have "set up their idols in their heart" (Ezekiel 14:3) Thus, the Lord plainly states that he will give you the answer you've already decided you want!

This is a gigantic truth, and it is another area concerning God's attributes that is commonly distorted by the false teachers. Pastors and Christian writers commonly tell us that God never deceives people - yet the Scriptures tell us that God allows us to continue in the deceptions that we've ensnared ourselves in. The Bible says "the Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (2 Peter 2:9).

In fact, the Apostle Paul plainly says that God will actually initiate deception when he writes that "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 The. 2:11,10).

And it is also God who chooses their delusions! I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not (Isaiah 66:4).

What we're seeing here should be frightening, because it is a scriptural proof text that indicates if we are not completely sold out to hearing the truth - regardless of how unsavory the truth may be - we are subject to be deceived. Furthermore, the very fact that this principle exists is tantamount to a prediction that there will be believers that think they are truly seeking the truth, but in actuality they have placed their idolatrous doctrines in their hearts, and are going before the LORD to ask him to validate the "idol" that is their false interpretation.

In the passage in Ezekiel, the Lord also refers to "the stumblingblock of their iniquity" as another obstacle to receiving the truth when seeking God. The text indicates that when the believer "putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face" when he seeks the Lord on a matter, this too will cause the Lord to "set my face against that man...." (Ezekiel 14:8).

This aspect of the prophecy informs us that our iniquity produces a "stumblingblock." Although we see variations on the term with the Scriptures sometimes calling it a "stumblingstone," the idiom is not used much in the modern English vernacular. It might be useful to state that if we think of walking forward and tripping over a large stone that we did not see, we have a valid picture of what is being said. For example, I live out in the country where it is completely pitch black at night. If I am walking around in total darkness and can't see a significant stone in my path, I'm likely to fall over it and be injured.

A stumblingblock is not intrinsically evil as the Scriptures state that Christ was to "the Jews a stumblingblock, and a rock of offense...." (1 Cor. 1:23) What we see in this amazing prophecy from Ezekiel is that it is our sin that keeps us from seeing things that we need to see. To put it another way, our iniquity is directly proportional to our spiritual blindness, and God will not just override that sin and force us to hear his truth. In order to get past this vulnerable condition, we must consistently demonstrate our willingness to receive the truth - in short, we must LOVE the TRUTH.

JESUS CHRIST told us that HE is the truth - "I am the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6) If we genuinely love the truth, then we will find it. Indeed, the very fact that there exists a multiplicity of "Christian traditions" is an indicator that something is dreadfully wrong. Thus, the idea that 'we can agree to disagree' is completely unscriptural on any matter concerning the faith. There is only one truth, and everything else is a lie.

...continued...
 
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doctrox

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This is an extraordinary perspective and it cuts like the proverbial two-edged sword. The idea of stumblingblocks is essentially synonymous with the New Testament concept of Strongholds. This is another way of describing a stumblingblock. A "Stronghold" is a place where someone or something may be defended. This term is commonly used as a military concept in the context of warfare - and the Bible frequently speaks of the war that is continuously occurring in the realm of the Spirit. In I Corinthians, we see,

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing [read idol] that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...." (2 Cor. 10:3-5)

What this verse is so eloquently teaching us is that we are the ones that pull down the "Strongholds." We are the ones that seek out the "Stumblingblocks" in order achieve the victory in Christ. And we do these things, not in our power, but "through God" as we become "sanctified through the truth" (John 17:19). To be sanctified means to be set apart for glory, but for those that are not sanctified of God, "...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...." (Romans 1:18)

To put this into perspective, whenever we fail to fully embrace the truth, we allow the Devil to establish a Spiritual Stronghold that enters into our lives - and this is something that can eventually destroy us. When we refuse to see the truth that God wants us to see, that Stronghold becomes a Stumblingblock that causes us to stumble and fall further and further away from the will of the LORD. As this process continues, we are not abiding in the truth, and we then become subject to the wrath of God which is directed to all that "hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18). Essentially, when we say that we love him, and do not love the truth, we have become liars because he IS the truth.

Through Ezekiel, God says that he has allowed this situation to progress because "they are all estranged from me through their idols" (Ezekiel 14:5). God desires our fellowship - a fellowship that is true and unfeigned - not simply words, but deeds. God will hold all accountable, and the only way to ensure that we know him is to be found in him - in righteousness and in truth. "If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? For the time is come that the judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:18,17)

-- brother James
 

KUWN

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I can see there is truth to the interpretation the Holy Spirit has given you.

Do you want to try another constellation, or do we agree that the way things are arranged is by the Holy Spirit?
The point i made was there is no way to tell which, if any, the passages the holy Spirit references. Passages that are at the opposite end of the spectrum are equally just as possible as any other passage. No, we do not agree, the holy Spirit did not create or order the stars. The was the work of Christ.