Is it possible to lose salvation?

[nedsk]

What does it profit, my bretheren, if someone SAYS he has faith.....

says - Lego - To say, or to tell To speak to talk.

Now you tell me

if someone comes and tells you they have faith

are they not claiming that they have faith?

If you can not get this part right.. no need in reading the rest. it is most likely wrong to.;. So lets get you to admit they DID say they had faith (claim)

Right. James says works complete faith. If faith was sufficient it wouldn't need completion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1. Yes as James indicates faith without works is dead. Are you suggesting dead
faith is salvific?

Nope. but they never had salvation or lost it. they never had it. because they never had saving faith

You do not say you trust somepone and never do a thing they say now do you?

2.Of course scripture shows those with faith but no works are not saved
3. See above

Do you understand what the sufficient means?

Yes I do

I also understand there are so many passages that say that we are saved by faith NOT WORKS.. that to cherry pick one passage of scripture to get people who say they have faith but in essence show they do not. to repent and come to true saving faith. That far to many people are thinking they have to add works of self to the grace of God.

Jesus said it is finished, he did not say I did my part now you do yours

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This cracked me up

Eternally Grateful said:
Those who use James to try to insert works to grace. have james diametrically apposed to paul in romans 4.

It could easily be said

Those that use Paul to try and insist works have no place in salvation, have Paul diametrically opposed to James in James 2

Yes we could say this AMEN AND AMEN

now resolve the contradiction..

I have, have you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes sir !
Good catch.

You too.

can you resolve the contradiction?

Paul said no works, period

James said works.

why do they appear to contradict?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What gets me is they actually think they have the authoritative understanding of scripture but with no evidence of that authority

lol

Well you have 2 people contradicting each other..

So you are not showing to well you have any authority yourself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I feel the same.
I was taught what I post by 3 different denominations.
The warnings are plainly in sight in the NT.
Scripture is posted and it's twisted out of shape to make it mean what it does not....
Conflicts are created when theology is not correct....

Yet you have scripture diametrically apposed to itself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was talking with another poster here and referred to a quote Jesus made. We had a disagreement about what Jesus was saying but the other poster actually said, "... what Jesus actually meant was...' and of course it agreed with their point of view.

and you do not do this?

I think this happens far to often by many pastors. we all can do this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I would say the catholic church is not crumbling but the wheat is being separated from the chaff. A smaller stronger church is arising. The church is coming out of the liberal "Jesus is love" era. The new priests are stronger and more traditional. The extraordinary form of the Mass is gaining a stronger foothold. A Latin Mass only church was just consecrated near where I live. The masses are packed.

The catholic church will crumble.. And it will not be a day to soon.

for someone who says they do not teach works based salvation. The catholic church has more ways to heaven (works) than any other church..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not a Lutheran.

Go ahead. Try again to attack my faith affiliation as you imagine it and therein show me where your god dwells.

he is a catholic. He thinks his church has all authority.. so anyone else is a protester.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're not to be taken seriously.

The Bible calls you foolish.

he is dishonest as well

He said you thought Luther was right.

then backtracked..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you cant show where i said works saves anyone. A decent person would admitted that and moved on but your pride wont allow it. If i were you I wouldnt take me seriously either because im right.

I am a fool. For christ

Your church teaches it..and I already showed you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Its as if you people stop using the brain God gave you. You can read can you not? James says works complete salvation. If faith was sufficient it would not need completion. Its not faith OR works its faith AND works. No where does scripture says faith alone. You cant accept you've been duped but its not by me. Its sad to watch you people

lol

You do not understand james at all

If grace and works can not mix.. then why would james say it must be grace (faith ) plus works?

or maybe he was tryign to show a group of licentious believers they did not really have faith? so they could repent?

I know I would.. as strong as I would a person who think they are saved by works.

because both have rejected the gospel of Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@pandaflower, like many other Christians, can't seem to understand the difference between the fact that works do not save anyone
and
after one comes to believe in God he is commanded to do good works.

They like Ephesians 2:8-9
but forget to post Ephesians 2:10


Just as a reminder to them, here it is:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

But those works do not save, keep us saved, or keep us from losing salvation.

Those who say they so. are in essence saying works save us

Works are a byproduct of true faith. Not a requirement

 

[nedsk]

lol

You do not understand james at all

If grace and works can not mix.. then why would james say it must be grace (faith ) plus works?

or maybe he was tryign to show a group of licentious believers they did not really have faith? so they could repent?

I know I would.. as strong as I would a person who think they are saved by works.

because both have rejected the gospel of Christ.

You don't understand sufficient. If faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion. Period.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For starters :

1. King Solomon, Scripture contains 5 books of him, among all the other wise things he wrote he foremost said - The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [Pred 12:13]

And yet he fell from grace at the end of his life, so bad the Lord turned against him. [1 Kings chapter 11] No endurance till the end.

2.
1Tim 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Tim 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Tim 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Jesus -> NOSAS
John -> NOSAS
Paul -> NOSAS
James ->NOSAS
Hebrews -> NOSAS

But feel free to ignore all the warnings.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The promise.

[Q] - is the promise conditional or not ?

Yawn

John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

From this we see this

Jesus Eternal security
John (who wrote Jesus words) eternal security
Paul; who apposed works based legalists and taugh tthat it is grace not of works. is Eternal secuirty
Hebrews, who taught that it is not by the law. but by the one sacrifice of christ. Eternal security Ijesus died once and sat down by the right hand always our mediator)
And james. Who fought a licentious gospel. of hearers not doers. did not deny eternal security. he embraced it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Flat denial/contradiction does not prove your view or disprove mine. It's just denial/contradiction - like what children do in arguments between themselves on the playground:

"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't"
"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't."

Also, being incredulous that I don't assume, as you do, that "shipwreck" must mean "salvation lost" does not dissolve what I pointed out from the passage and it certainly doesn't secure your assumption. Your incredulity is just a kind of rhetorical posturing, nothing more.

yes

their faith (or what could have been their faith) was shipwrecked. not their salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're a disciple of Luther. In other words a dupe.

Luther?

Nah. I am a disciple of Christ.

Seems you are a disciple of the roman empire?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right. James says works complete faith. If faith was sufficient it wouldn't need completion.

No

James said by works, faith is shown..

Abraham was saved in gen 15. completely. James mentioned his work of sacrificng his son. Which shows his FAITH WAS PERFECTED.

Not his salvation.

He was saved in Gen 15..

again, romans 4 you have in contradiction with James.. Paul speaking to those adding works to the gospel of grace

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

see it is simple. to whose whom God imputes his righteousness. He will not impute sin. hence he will not be judged. which is the message of the cross.You have james and Paul at odds

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You don't understand sufficient. If faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion. Period.

I do understand sufficient

Jesus

1. He who believes
2. Ask and I will give you living water
3. Believe the words I tell you
4. See and believe,


John
Recieve him,
You have eternal life. (not y9our trying to keep it)

Paul,
grace and works do not mix. if it is of grace it is no longer works
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us


I can go on and on and on.

Salvation is a gift. paid in full by Christ on the cross. When you try to earn it. by your deeds. You reject grace

 

[pandaflower]

he is dishonest as well

He said you thought Luther was right.

then backtracked..

They make accusations against God's people and God's word. And then backtrack.

They also make false claims about scripture when posting to a member and later accuse that member of saying what they had posted.

Maybe it is more than one person sharing an account after all. And they don't know what the other one has said before going on their own posting jaunt.