WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[GodsGrace]

There's only ONE manuscript that bears his name as the author. (Carefully and amusingly procured from a young page using the old scrolls as a means for lighting the coal and wood furnace)
There are no others....so without corroboration we assume it tentatively instead of definitively. (Sorry for the confusion)


But more to the point....
One of my favorite things to ponder about is this spiritual blindness. We, today, are the Pharisees, Sadducees, law experts and "Jews" prototyped in the scriptures.

But so few want to entertain the thought. We often look upon those mentioned in the scriptures with a mix of scorn and laughter. Never once doing the same to the person in the mirror and seeing the exact same characters the scriptures described as the villains in the stories.
We see only ourselves as the heroes. How on earth does this happen? How did we become blind? Where did we lose our sight? Was it sudden or so slow we didn't notice it?
When there's this huge pink and purple elephant in the room with us that we have to literally engage in all sorts of contortions to get around....but when someone points at it and says,"Maybe we should remove the elephant so we can move about easier." Everyone looks at them as if they are a either a heretic or nutjob of some sort.

And I've been that person a few times....also been blind to the elephant too often to count. (Thank God for Jesus)

So....dunno....
But I ponder it often.

No one can see the Kingdom of Heaven unless....
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see

Most likely Hebrews was written by someone close to Paul.
Paul might even have been present while it was being written...
or even gave it the OK to send off.

We tend to think of those times as we would a play or movie.
But they were real persons living in a real world.
We'll never really know everything 100%.
(but we know enough).

The elephant.
Yeah.
Too late to go back.
To the beginning.

 

[JohnDB]

Most likely Hebrews was written by someone close to Paul.
Paul might even have been present while it was being written...
or even gave it the OK to send off.

We tend to think of those times as we would a play or movie.
But they were real persons living in a real world.
We'll never really know everything 100%.
(but we know enough).

The elephant.
Yeah.
Too late to go back.
To the beginning.

Wescott of Wescott and Hort is the one who clued us in. He wrote the definitive commentary on the book of Hebrews because the entire book (as well as Jude) refers incessantly to extra-Biblical Literature from the Jews of that time period. He, himself was involved in preserving them as a transcriptionist....he was heavily involved with Midrash, Sifre, Talmud, and lessons transcribed by famous Rabbi. So, his commentary is invaluable with understanding what is being referred to in the scriptures.

Unless someone new wishes to familiarize themselves with Ancient Judaism writings and make a fresh commentary based upon them. As it is today most commentaries on Hebrews are a regurgitation of Wescott's work. (Pssst, including Catholic's)

And when you look at scriptures afresh with the Old, standard Septuagint Old Testament as a backdrop....you begin to see the many allusions to partial, fragmented quotes from the Old Testament on every page and in every story.

Eadie and Lightfoot continued Wescott's and Hort's work (apprentices) So....I tend to listen to them as well.

But the gist of it all is that the writer was VERY familiar with Pharisee and Rabbinic writings extensively. Not every last bit of it....but the popularly known lessons.

But I look back to the day when Wescott was presenting what he discovered with extremely convincing proofs of what the author was saying and why he was saying it in that particular fashion....and the likely full intent based upon the Extra Biblical writings.

People, to this day, falsely claim all sorts of things about the guy. He was vilified in every manner possible. Just because they didn't like what he was saying. He was going against traditional beliefs and teachings. He barely escaped with his life on several occasions. Today, he is the traditional teachings. How's that for a turnaround?

But the blindness existed then too. It obviously exists today. No different from when Jesus was on tour.

Are we ever gonna get it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wescott of Wescott and Hort is the one who clued us in. He wrote the definitive commentary on the book of Hebrews because the entire book (as well as Jude) refers incessantly to extra-Biblical Literature from the Jews of that time period. He, himself was involved in preserving them as a transcriptionist....he was heavily involved with Midrash, Sifre, Talmud, and lessons transcribed by famous Rabbi. So, his commentary is invaluable with understanding what is being referred to in the scriptures.

Unless someone new wishes to familiarize themselves with Ancient Judaism writings and make a fresh commentary based upon them. As it is today most commentaries on Hebrews are a regurgitation of Wescott's work. (Pssst, including Catholic's)

And when you look at scriptures afresh with the Old, standard Septuagint Old Testament as a backdrop....you begin to see the many allusions to partial, fragmented quotes from the Old Testament on every page and in every story.

Eadie and Lightfoot continued Wescott's and Hort's work (apprentices) So....I tend to listen to them as well.

But the gist of it all is that the writer was VERY familiar with Pharisee and Rabbinic writings extensively. Not every last bit of it....but the popularly known lessons.

But I look back to the day when Wescott was presenting what he discovered with extremely convincing proofs of what the author was saying and why he was saying it in that particular fashion....and the likely full intent based upon the Extra Biblical writings.

People, to this day, falsely claim all sorts of things about the guy. He was vilified in every manner possible. Just because they didn't like what he was saying. He was going against traditional beliefs and teachings. He barely escaped with his life on several occasions. Today, he is the traditional teachings. How's that for a turnaround?

But the blindness existed then too. It obviously exists today. No different from when Jesus was on tour.

Are we ever gonna get it?

I try to keep it simple.
I think we need to know God, in the sense that we know that He exists and we wish to worship/serve HIM and not the enemy.
Then I think we need to obey God.
I get much push-back on this....telling me that no one can obey God -etc.
Well, gosh, I THINK we're supposed to try!
Not just throw our arms up in the air and give up.

Other than this I've learned that the more I know....
the more I know I don't know.

I've told you this before, I envy those that have good knowledge of the OT.
It's the key to the new.
This is why the Reformed misunderstand Romans 9 to 11....Paul is speaking to a Jewish group
that understood every word he was saying and how it referred back to the OT.
We've westernized the bible, that's for sure.

I used to hear about these Church Fathers and was never too interested.
A few years ago I started to read what they taught - having started with the Didache.
Wow. Were my eyes opened.
They were taught by the Apostles and agreed on many important topics.
It made me realize how far we are from their teachings, and I'm sorry about it.

So many debates that go on in these forums that would just disappear and maybe it would be
as Jesus would have wanted it....for His followers to agree on what God wants from us.

I mean, when we start to debate whether or not it's necessary to obey God...I think we're starting
to tread on water.

 

[JohnDB]

I try to keep it simple.
I think we need to know God, in the sense that we know that He exists and we wish to worship/serve HIM and not the enemy.
Then I think we need to obey God.
I get much push-back on this....telling me that no one can obey God -etc.
Well, gosh, I THINK we're supposed to try!
Not just throw our arms up in the air and give up.

Other than this I've learned that the more I know....
the more I know I don't know.

I've told you this before, I envy those that have good knowledge of the OT.
It's the key to the new.
This is why the Reformed misunderstand Romans 9 to 11....Paul is speaking to a Jewish group
that understood every word he was saying and how it referred back to the OT.
We've westernized the bible, that's for sure.

I used to hear about these Church Fathers and was never too interested.
A few years ago I started to read what they taught - having started with the Didache.
Wow. Were my eyes opened.
They were taught by the Apostles and agreed on many important topics.
It made me realize how far we are from their teachings, and I'm sorry about it.

So many debates that go on in these forums that would just disappear and maybe it would be
as Jesus would have wanted it....for His followers to agree on what God wants from us.

I mean, when we start to debate whether or not it's necessary to obey God...I think we're starting
to tread on water.

Jesus declared that the two most important commandments are to:
Love God with all of your heart, mind, and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself

That ALL the law and Rules (Old Testament AND ESPECIALLY New Testament) hinge upon these two commandments.

Meaning that God has determined what does and what does not constitute positive relationships with Himself and our fellow man.

But people wish to argue over the fine details...
Do not touch.......
Do not taste.......
Do not enjoy.......
which sometimes seems to be some sort of holy wisdom....but it absolutely does not.

Yeah....I'm definitely one of the "weird ones" for my beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus declared that the two most important commandments are to:
Love God with all of your heart, mind, and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself

That ALL the law and Rules (Old Testament AND ESPECIALLY New Testament) hinge upon these two commandments.

Meaning that God has determined what does and what does not constitute positive relationships with Himself and our fellow man.

But people wish to argue over the fine details...
Do not touch.......
Do not taste.......
Do not enjoy.......
which sometimes seems to be some sort of holy wisdom....but it absolutely does not.

Yeah....I'm definitely one of the "weird ones" for my beliefs.

But what are the fine details?

Agreed on the 2 Great Commandments.

What about posters that flat out say that obedience to God makes no difference...
or OSAS....that no matter how we live we will be saved, after 10's of verses stating we can become lost again.
What about bapism...is it necessary or not?
Do we ask forgiveness for our sins...or is it not necessary?

After 10 years of Forums, I've heard it all - as you also have.
Are these matters not important?
Am I wasting my time here?
I feel that so many misconception are thrown out there that they must be
adjusted by someone.
Does this mean I think I'm always right?
is this pride?

What are we doing here anyway?
Sometimes I wonder.

 

[JohnDB]

But what are the fine details?

Agreed on the 2 Great Commandments.

What about posters that flat out say that obedience to God makes no difference...
or OSAS....that no matter how we live we will be saved, after 10's of verses stating we can become lost again.
What about bapism...is it necessary or not?
Do we ask forgiveness for our sins...or is it not necessary?

After 10 years of Forums, I've heard it all - as you also have.
Are these matters not important?
Am I wasting my time here?
I feel that so many misconception are thrown out there that they must be
adjusted by someone.
Does this mean I think I'm always right?
is this pride?

What are we doing here anyway?
Sometimes I wonder.

Wow....

Might as well ask for the meaning for life....
(Joking)
Where you have these questions written out for me....probably somewhat rhetorically because I know you know the answers. It goes along to the reason why we have been friends since we first met. We experienced an instant friendship all those many years ago...for a reason. Mostly because we have the same Father...and we somehow have gotten "it" despite everything else.

And the reason for the fellowship, which includes the discussion of scriptures and everything else we do on these forums use the two greatest Commandments as the filter with which we do all these things.
And if the activities we want to do can't get past that filter....we don't do them. It's that simple.

As far as the theological debates....there's always "that guy" in every crowd. The one who as the Aussies say is a spoon and looking to stir things up. He always has trouble forming real friendships unless they are fellow combatants beating on everyone who disagrees with them.

Scriptures are clear on these subjects of discussion....as clear as the story of the Good Samaritan or Naaman, the Commander of the Assyrian army.

Now because this is the internet, there are those who look to cause dissention among us for no other reason than for a moment's amusement. No real curiosity or honest questions....and sometimes even faith. (Not really the brightest bulbs in the bunch)

For those who really want to know....we are here.
For those who have gaps in their scripture knowledge....we are here.
For those who need some words of affirmation, encouragement, or acceptance....
We are here.

Those needing words of correction? They need to learn from Jesus and hard knocks. We might give them a word of warning....but they never heed them anyway.

Those with the lessons of hyper-calvinism? They take themselves too seriously. And all those "Reformed" churches are literally ghost churches. Nobody goes....however in times past they have been referred to as a class of individual that is less than flattering. And they have been helpful. In fact the Geneva Bible, the first most prolific Bible in English, the first common man's Bible, the single most influential Bible in English speaking history....was mass produced by Calvinists.

Baptism is a ordinance....one people make into something it never was supposed to be. We just never get the concept that God knows us. The ordinances are for OUR benefit....not God's. Sometimes a bit of surrendering, acquiescence, or license is needed to do them. But they, in themselves, are not needed for salvation....only the mindset that causes us to perform them in spirit and truth. If you are willing to be baptized but somehow cannot....don't sweat the small stuff. If you abjectly refuse because of your own secret fears of looking ridiculous somehow....you have a HUGE problem. Same with that tiny cracker and sip of grape juice or wine. Not enough for a meal.....but later followed by a potluck dinner. The cracker and juice is symbolic of the potluck lunch we have later. The lunch after is of significantly more importance than the ritual. And we usually miss that fact.

Now, you HAVE studied. You have made it a point to study on your own. To earnestly learn what you could by self directed means. (Church Fathers) So you have things to offer us all.
I've done similarly but with a different perspective. (Anthropology, history, and language of scriptures)
Everyone has value and adds value to Scriptures and the understanding of an incomprehensible God. Together, collectively we are more than the simple sum of our parts.

And that's why we like it here. To be part of that "more".

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow....

Might as well ask for the meaning for life....
(Joking)
Where you have these questions written out for me....probably somewhat rhetorically because I know you know the answers. It goes along to the reason why we have been friends since we first met. We experienced an instant friendship all those many years ago...for a reason. Mostly because we have the same Father...and we somehow have gotten "it" despite everything else.

And the reason for the fellowship, which includes the discussion of scriptures and everything else we do on these forums use the two greatest Commandments as the filter with which we do all these things.
And if the activities we want to do can't get past that filter....we don't do them. It's that simple.

As far as the theological debates....there's always "that guy" in every crowd. The one who as the Aussies say is a spoon and looking to stir things up. He always has trouble forming real friendships unless they are fellow combatants beating on everyone who disagrees with them.

Scriptures are clear on these subjects of discussion....as clear as the story of the Good Samaritan or Naaman, the Commander of the Assyrian army.

Now because this is the internet, there are those who look to cause dissention among us for no other reason than for a moment's amusement. No real curiosity or honest questions....and sometimes even faith. (Not really the brightest bulbs in the bunch)

For those who really want to know....we are here.
For those who have gaps in their scripture knowledge....we are here.
For those who need some words of affirmation, encouragement, or acceptance....
We are here.

Those needing words of correction? They need to learn from Jesus and hard knocks. We might give them a word of warning....but they never heed them anyway.

Those with the lessons of hyper-calvinism? They take themselves too seriously. And all those "Reformed" churches are literally ghost churches. Nobody goes....however in times past they have been referred to as a class of individual that is less than flattering. And they have been helpful. In fact the Geneva Bible, the first most prolific Bible in English, the first common man's Bible, the single most influential Bible in English speaking history....was mass produced by Calvinists.

Baptism is a ordinance....one people make into something it never was supposed to be. We just never get the concept that God knows us. The ordinances are for OUR benefit....not God's. Sometimes a bit of surrendering, acquiescence, or license is needed to do them. But they, in themselves, are not needed for salvation....only the mindset that causes us to perform them in spirit and truth. If you are willing to be baptized but somehow cannot....don't sweat the small stuff. If you abjectly refuse because of your own secret fears of looking ridiculous somehow....you have a HUGE problem. Same with that tiny cracker and sip of grape juice or wine. Not enough for a meal.....but later followed by a potluck dinner. The cracker and juice is symbolic of the potluck lunch we have later. The lunch after is of significantly more importance than the ritual. And we usually miss that fact.

Now, you HAVE studied. You have made it a point to study on your own. To earnestly learn what you could by self directed means. (Church Fathers) So you have things to offer us all.
I've done similarly but with a different perspective. (Anthropology, history, and language of scriptures)
Everyone has value and adds value to Scriptures and the understanding of an incomprehensible God. Together, collectively we are more than the simple sum of our parts.

And that's why we like it here. To be part of that "more".

Thanks John.
I really appreciate the time you took to write all these last few posts.
It's very helpful to me and to keep me quiet....saying what I believe but
in respectful and quiet tones.
Have a great day!
I'm going a a birthday party of a 9 year old in the family.
She tells me she loves Jesus and loves to pray.
So there!

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks John.
I really appreciate the time you took to write all these last few posts.
It's very helpful to me and to keep me quiet....saying what I believe but
in respectful and quiet tones.
Have a great day!
I'm going a a birthday party of a 9 year old in the family.
She tells me she loves Jesus and loves to pray.
So there!

I'm humbled by your kind words....
To me, it's just been a description of the obvious key notes of our friendship.
And it's my Dad's birthday today as well. We barbecued, had German Chocolate cake with the coconut pecan frosting and the whole family here. Dad was thrilled. He claimed that he's never had a Birthday party just for him before. Had presents and everything.

To us, it's just a simple thing. A basic human kindness. To him it's a massive thing.
He is trying to discount it because it meant too much to him. But the simple truth is that we ALL love him, need him, and want him. And in this world today, it's still one of the most profound things. Something we all desperately desire....just to be loved in deeds and not just words. It makes a huge difference in people's lives throughout all of the world and history. I can't save the world. But I can make a difference in my little corner of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm humbled by your kind words....
To me, it's just been a description of the obvious key notes of our friendship.
And it's my Dad's birthday today as well. We barbecued, had German Chocolate cake with the coconut pecan frosting and the whole family here. Dad was thrilled. He claimed that he's never had a Birthday party just for him before. Had presents and everything.

To us, it's just a simple thing. A basic human kindness. To him it's a massive thing.
He is trying to discount it because it meant too much to him. But the simple truth is that we ALL love him, need him, and want him. And in this world today, it's still one of the most profound things. Something we all desperately desire....just to be loved in deeds and not just words. It makes a huge difference in people's lives throughout all of the world and history. I can't save the world. But I can make a difference in my little corner of it.

Good to hear.
See, this is one of the good deeds I talk about and get push-back all the time.
Let's make the world a better place!
German choc cake with pecan frosting.
Yeah. Bring some over!
Does your dad know about the forum?
If so, wish him a very happy birthday from me too!

 

[Fred J]

You are inserting YOUR thoughts into the scriptures. (Based upon the influence of others)

Jesus said "you must be born from above".
He did not say, "You need to become born again"
Jesus wasn't declaring to Nicodemus something he must accomplish, He was declaring the truth of what was a reality that Nicodemus did not see or understand. Nicodemus didn't believe he was one of the Born from Above crowd....a special and praiseworthy list of people.

Nicodemus did not feel like he was that special or lived a special life to be one of the "genethe anothen" . That's why he believed he needed a whole life do over. Nicodemus was being sarcastic and self depreciating.

And a "Dear John" letter is a colloquial term that was once well known as a breakup letter that soldiers got during WW2 from their girlfriends telling them they had met someone else. I was finding humor in what you wrote. I knew what you intended....but it just struck me as funny. I'm not trying to belittle your writing style.

Take a minute....consider what I'm saying.
Consider the theological implications. Don't dismiss them out of hand. (I'm not promoting Calvinism even if it might appear that way on the surface)

I'm extremely dedicated to God's Word....a huge fan. I value every word said in context. Not adding to or taking away one little word or meaning.

"Anothen" is a Greek word meaning upper/above in an entire library in Alexandria and everywhere else in Koine Greek literature but somehow it's supposed to mean "again or anew" in this one section of scripture? It's not even in keeping with the other place used in scriptures. (It means upper/above there too)

John records this exchange because John's Gospel addresses theological truths to set straight a gentile world straight in theological processes.

Where Paul describes us being born anew into a new purpose and a new family and I can agree with Paul's sentiments....Jesus is not saying those things here. It's a completely different subject.

1 Corinthians 1:
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of GOD.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where the disputer of this world? hath not GOD made foolish the wisdom of this world?

27. But GOD hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Sadly all your lecture is for nothing, and babes in Christ do not be deceived, thank you.

1 John 2:
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

Galatians 2:
4. And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage.
5. To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the Gospel might continue with you.
6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: GOD accepteth no man's person:)for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

None of you Jews (besides Jesus) were born from above, but rather born naturally from below of a woman like every one of us.

Nicodemus knew that too, but on the other hand hearing about one need to become 'born again', he thought naturally like every one of us would.

'Born from above' is a term we use when we're already gone through the 'born again' procedure, and hence now a child of GOD. (John 1:12)

Shalom in the name Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

I'd like @Eternally Grateful to read this too, although I already know he won't agree.

The phrase BORN AGAIN did not exist in the early church.
A SPIRITUAL birth was recognized, but not being born again as is taught these days.

I've stopped fighting this many years ago.
Many incorrect doctrine have come about that did not exist in the early church.
I wish every Christian would study church history, but it's really frowned upon.

What the early fathers taught, those taught by the Apostles....
is that we are to believe in God.
Believe in His presence, His reality.
And then we are to obey God.
This is really all they taught...everything else is details.

Now, I have read what you post here about the meaning of being BORN FROM ABOVE...
but it's pretty useless to try and communicate this to us - I include myself because I find that if I insist on
the true meaning - it become impossible to move on to the topic at hand.

I have to use the term born again, instead of spiritual birth, because it's the only way to be understood in our parlance.

This misuse of scripture causes many problems for Christianity.
It causes many to believe doctrine that is nowhere to be found in Christianity.
It's causing Christianity to become so watered down as to be unrecognizable.
It's causing division between us which JESUS DID NOT WANT.

We would need to get back to the beginning....
but who would be willing?
Not those taught by churches that teach these new ideas that we not existant in the Apostles and those they taught.

Sorry for rambling...
sometimes I just need to say this.

(even though no one listens).

Sadly, i don't understand what the major issue here, whether 'born again' or 'born from above', both refers to 'spiritual birth'.

We even 'refuted' and scripturally 'corrected' this carnally educated folly person for bringing such a minor scriptural difference that relates to the same matter.

It's like children fighting over whether 'candies' or 'sweets', stirred by another child causing a controversy among themselves.

And present elders are looking at one another witnessing all the unwise commotion going on, when to them there seem to be no major issue between both.

2 Timothy 2:
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Just for the record, the change from our church fathers about words in the Holy Bible scripture happened under the watch of FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 14:
33. For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Things like this happens when an 'imposter' and 'counterfeit' sneak in and stir up such a 'folly', where only the babes in Christ get 'sucked in'.

The same happened to the Galatian church in the Holy Bible, where a 'sneaked in' Jew 'stirred up' the necessity for 'circumcision' of the Gentile Christians.

As the Word of GOD is the 'double edged sword' and wisdom given us to serve in action here, therefore wise up little children and come out of it.

Glory be to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ and shalom.

 

[JohnDB]

Sadly, i don't understand what the major issue here, whether 'born again' or 'born from above', both refers to 'spiritual birth'.

We even 'refuted' and scripturally 'corrected' this carnally educated folly person for bringing such a minor scriptural difference that relates to the same matter.

It's like children fighting over whether 'candies' or 'sweets', stirred by another child causing a controversy among themselves.

And present elders are looking at one another witnessing all the unwise commotion going on, when to them there seem to be no major issue between both.

2 Timothy 2:
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Just for the record, the change from our church fathers about words in the Holy Bible scripture happened under the watch of FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 14:
33. For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Things like this happens when an 'imposter' and 'counterfeit' sneak in and stir up such a 'folly', where only the babes in Christ get 'sucked in'.

The same happened to the Galatian church in the Holy Bible, where a 'sneaked in' Jew 'stirred up' the necessity for 'circumcision' of the Gentile Christians.

As the Word of GOD is the 'double edged sword' and wisdom given us to serve in action here, therefore wise up little children and come out of it.

Glory be to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ and shalom.

There's a huge difference.

It means that God knows us, He has been anxiously awaiting our arrival. We, the Children of God, have tasks already appointed for us to do....carved out thousands of years ago.

Born again? A marketing strategy slogan about a hundred years old from an incorrect translation from 500-600 years ago in Olde English. Just an adjective or title of a state of believing.

It makes a huge difference in sight as well. "No one can see the Kingdom of Heaven unless he is Born from Above" meaning....we Always will be able to see and recognize our King. He won't be hidden from us.
So, not only are we members of God's kingdom, we have a role/position in it already assigned.

That's why it matters. That's the difference.

 

[Fred J]

It makes a huge difference in sight as well. "No one can see the Kingdom of Heaven unless he is Born from Above" meaning....we

"Verily, verily, except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD."

Is fine by us, 'born again' or 'born from above', in context we perceive in the spirit both terms are referring to the same thing.

And there's no dispute nor a big fuss about it, but only to the 'unstable in faith' and 'unlearned from above' immatures.

To us it's plain and simple too by context, that, as called we're to learn about the Kingdom of GOD like a child.

And not like a graduate adult of this world, who's wisdom GOD considers to be 'folly' and uncalled in participation.

As to Apostle Paul, to what he thought was all gain, he count them now as all lost, had to start once again a 'toddler'.

Since 'born again' or 'born from above', he's received a new mind and thinking as a toddler, now of GOD.

Like the 'unlearned' is called, Himself a 'learned' also called, as to the Kingdom of GOD is liken unto, both had to start of with 'milk' at first.

And then grow move on to 'meat' in the Kingdom of GOD which is 'at hand' and 'on earth', being proclaimed, discipled and ministered.

To put into perspective, we're naturally and physically born of a physical parent, and grew up to adults, and got lost at one point.

While we're still physically alive, clean, fine, fragrant 'outwardly' but dead, filthy, rotten, smelly 'inwardly', as Jesus said, 'whitewashed sepulchre'?

Now by the Power of GOD we've become 'born again' inwardly and outwardly a new spirit man in the same body.

Metaphorically speaking the prophecy of Ezekiel coming to pass, 'The Valley of Dry Bones coming to life and GOD have put HIS spirit in them'.

Therefore now having the mind of Christ and at peace a child of GOD, what difference does it make, if i were to use 'born again' or 'born from above' in same context?

None!

Even, 'The Case for Christ' of Lee Strobel is 'closed'!

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[n2thelight]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

I think it's the water from the mother's womb

 

[Fred J]

I think it's the water from the mother's womb

Friend, as a child of GOD there's no reason to 'think' but rather be assured in faith, and least an unbeliever make a mockery.

And what's the 'water baptism' from the Gospels to the book of Acts is all about, not the 'water' Jesus is referring to?

Every adult perceive naturally in the beginning they were born from the water bag in their mother's womb and already came to pass.

Now they're hearing the proclamation of the Kingdom of GOD which is 'at hand', the New Covenant has come.

Calling for repentance and the sanctification of their body, the river Jordon 'water' was their calling and everyone went there.

Jesus the Master Himself we're to imitate, went into the water and came out, and immediately the Holy Ghost descended on Him.

As an role model, Himself was born of water and of the Holy Ghost, as according to verse 5 which Himself proclaimed.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[JohnDB]

"Verily, verily, except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD."

Is fine by us, 'born again' or 'born from above', in context we perceive in the spirit both terms are referring to the same thing.

And there's no dispute nor a big fuss about it, but only to the 'unstable in faith' and 'unlearned from above' immatures.

To us it's plain and simple too by context, that, as called we're to learn about the Kingdom of GOD like a child.

And not like a graduate adult of this world, who's wisdom GOD considers to be 'folly' and uncalled in participation.

As to Apostle Paul, to what he thought was all gain, he count them now as all lost, had to start once again a 'toddler'.

Since 'born again' or 'born from above', he's received a new mind and thinking as a toddler, now of GOD.

Like the 'unlearned' is called, Himself a 'learned' also called, as to the Kingdom of GOD is liken unto, both had to start of with 'milk' at first.

And then grow move on to 'meat' in the Kingdom of GOD which is 'at hand' and 'on earth', being proclaimed, discipled and ministered.

To put into perspective, we're naturally and physically born of a physical parent, and grew up to adults, and got lost at one point.

While we're still physically alive, clean, fine, fragrant 'outwardly' but dead, filthy, rotten, smelly 'inwardly', as Jesus said, 'whitewashed sepulchre'?

Now by the Power of GOD we've become 'born again' inwardly and outwardly a new spirit man in the same body.

Metaphorically speaking the prophecy of Ezekiel coming to pass, 'The Valley of Dry Bones coming to life and GOD have put HIS spirit in them'.

Therefore now having the mind of Christ and at peace a child of GOD, what difference does it make, if i were to use 'born again' or 'born from above' in same context?

None!

Even, 'The Case for Christ' of Lee Strobel is 'closed'!

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

He was declaring a fact. Not telling Nicodemus that he needed to change.

It's not a "If-Then" statement. It's declarative and not a reference to Heavenly rewards.

Jesus rewarded EVERYONE who recognized him as the Messiah. Akin to "No one can see me except those Born from Above AKA the Sons of God. Nicodemus was being rewarded.

 

[Taken]

WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

John 3:
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Context…John 3:
Pharisee, named Nicodemus.
Who at night went to Jesus.
Confessed his Belief in Jesus sent from God to teach.

Jesus taught the Pharisee that a man must be born again to Enter Gods Kingdom.

The Pharisee was inquisitive of How a man could be born ONCE from the Womb…and Again from the womb?

Speculation…
Likely Common Knowledge…
A man born Forth From the WOMB…
Is born Forth From / With “Water”…
(Modernly / Medically The Water is Called:
Amniotic Fluid…
Layman called: WATER…)

Nothing new Forward to the Common Knowledge to this Day.
Babes in the Womb, are in a protective water sac, and WATER gushes forth from the Womb, when the Natural Birth of a human is about to be BORN.

The Pharisee obviously Knew of this Natural Water Birth from the Womb…( by his own wondering / questioning ) IF it would be necessary for a man to RETURN to the Womb, Before a SECOND Birth OF / FROM THE SPIRIT could happen… and How would that happen.

Jesus assured the Pharisee…
The Second Birth…was Not Required for a man to Return to the Womb, and be Born Again in a Natural manner OF WATER, as a living man ALREADY experienced.

The First Birth Required for a man to ENTER Gods Kingdom:
is a Birth of Water from the Womb of a human female.

The Second Birth Required for a man to ENTER Gods Kingdom:
is a Birth of the Spirit (SEED) of God.

Other Scriptures… Detail expressly…the Spiritual Birth is Accomplished when a man receives the SEED of God…
Who
What
When
Where
Why
How
Step by step is expressly revealed in Scripture.

Side Note…water mystery…forms…
Mist, clouds, fog, vapor, liquid…
* A mysterious visible and invisible element.
* A large Visible percentage makeup surrounding the Earth.
* A large Invisible percentage makeup of the human body.
* A large Barrier between Heaven(S) and Earth.
* An element required IN a man, continual replenishing IN a man; to “sustain / maintain” a mans Natural human Life
* men can experience, Temporary… Glimpses… of Heavenly Waters.
Seeing…fog, mists, clouds.
Entering IN…fog, mists, clouds.
* (so to speak of the mystery of God)…

Jesus’ Teaching…
Heavenly Waters Required with-IN a man, to:
“Possess, Have, Sustain, Maintain…FOREVER Life, existence, With God.”

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[JohnDB]

"Verily, verily, except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD."

Is fine by us, 'born again' or 'born from above', in context we perceive in the spirit both terms are referring to the same thing.

And there's no dispute nor a big fuss about it, but only to the 'unstable in faith' and 'unlearned from above' immatures.

To us it's plain and simple too by context, that, as called we're to learn about the Kingdom of GOD like a child.

And not like a graduate adult of this world, who's wisdom GOD considers to be 'folly' and uncalled in participation.

As to Apostle Paul, to what he thought was all gain, he count them now as all lost, had to start once again a 'toddler'.

Since 'born again' or 'born from above', he's received a new mind and thinking as a toddler, now of GOD.

Like the 'unlearned' is called, Himself a 'learned' also called, as to the Kingdom of GOD is liken unto, both had to start of with 'milk' at first.

And then grow move on to 'meat' in the Kingdom of GOD which is 'at hand' and 'on earth', being proclaimed, discipled and ministered.

To put into perspective, we're naturally and physically born of a physical parent, and grew up to adults, and got lost at one point.

While we're still physically alive, clean, fine, fragrant 'outwardly' but dead, filthy, rotten, smelly 'inwardly', as Jesus said, 'whitewashed sepulchre'?

Now by the Power of GOD we've become 'born again' inwardly and outwardly a new spirit man in the same body.

Metaphorically speaking the prophecy of Ezekiel coming to pass, 'The Valley of Dry Bones coming to life and GOD have put HIS spirit in them'.

Therefore now having the mind of Christ and at peace a child of GOD, what difference does it make, if i were to use 'born again' or 'born from above' in same context?

None!

Even, 'The Case for Christ' of Lee Strobel is 'closed'!

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

But....what you are saying the reason John spent a day's wages upon is to repeat what he already wrote in John 1:12. No new theology....nothing but a marketing campaign slogan stemming from a poor translation done by a monk 600 years ago.

And then the amniotic fluid being the "water" goes along with this continuation of stating of the obvious. (Not something Jesus was known for)

However....
Despite Tradition leading to an incongruent definition of an encounter that is not really remembable or worth the paper it was written upon. We could go with the groundbreaking encounter I have described that flew in the face of a plethora of theologies of Judaism.

Yeah....

You claim "no difference"....but nothing could be further from the truth. There's a MASSIVE difference. It's the difference between "ears to hear" vs being deaf.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sadly, i don't understand what the major issue here, whether 'born again' or 'born from above', both refers to 'spiritual birth'.

We even 'refuted' and scripturally 'corrected' this carnally educated folly person for bringing such a minor scriptural difference that relates to the same matter.

It's like children fighting over whether 'candies' or 'sweets', stirred by another child causing a controversy among themselves.

And present elders are looking at one another witnessing all the unwise commotion going on, when to them there seem to be no major issue between both.

2 Timothy 2:
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Just for the record, the change from our church fathers about words in the Holy Bible scripture happened under the watch of FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 14:
33. For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Things like this happens when an 'imposter' and 'counterfeit' sneak in and stir up such a 'folly', where only the babes in Christ get 'sucked in'.

The same happened to the Galatian church in the Holy Bible, where a 'sneaked in' Jew 'stirred up' the necessity for 'circumcision' of the Gentile Christians.

As the Word of GOD is the 'double edged sword' and wisdom given us to serve in action here, therefore wise up little children and come out of it.

Glory be to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ and shalom.

I agree with you that sometimes we spend too much time on a word, on these Forums.
I tend to keep away from this.

There is one word, however, that is worth discussing, but it is not the subject of this thread...
that word is BELIEVE. Some just don't seem to understand it and it's pivotal to our understanding of following Jesus.

Born from above and born again, in today's parlance means the same.

It's a spiritual birth.
The problem is that some know much more about the Jewish language and history....hermeneutics will cover it....than the rest of us.
@JohnDB happens to be one of those persons.

I think it would be good to listen to what they have to say instead of fighting them all the way.

Since we won't easily be understanding the difference, and I put myself in the mix, we should at least admit that we don't know everything that would be necessary to know.

I'm even having difficulty understanding what the word WATER means in John 3:5.

It makes so much sense for it to mean physical birth.
But we all know we have to be born FIRST.

So maybe it IS baptism.

Is the understanding of this a salvific issue?
I don't believe so.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Fred J

Actually the term BORN AGAIN is what is making it difficult for me to understand John 3.5

Born from above SPECIFICALLY states that one must be born of the spirit...of God.
This would reject the meaning of physical birth.

BORN AGAIN makes is sound like we must be born FIRST
and then
Be born also of the spirit.

So yes, I do believe the term makes a difference.

The CONCEPT of being born again did NOT exist in the early church.