Twelve, Eleven, then Ten? (Apostles)

[dak]

By the end of this post the thread topic should be evident.

The Twelve:

Matthew 10:2-4 LSV
2 And of the twelve apostles the names are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James of Zebedee, and his brother John;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax collector; James of Alpheus, and Lebbeus who was surnamed Thaddeus;
4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also delivered Him up.

Mark 3:13-19 LSV
13 And He goes up to the mountain, and calls near whom He willed, and they went away to Him;
14 and He appointed twelve, that they may be with Him, and that He may send them forth to preach,
15 and to have power to heal the sicknesses, and to cast out the demons.
16 And He put on Simon the name Peter;
17 and James of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, and He put on them names—Boanerges, that is, "Sons of thunder";
18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Zealot,
19 and Judas Iscariot, who also delivered Him up; and they come into a house.

Luke 6:12-16 LSV
12 And it came to pass in those days, He went forth to the mountain to pray, and was passing the night in the prayer of God,
13 and when it became day, He called near His disciples, also having chosen twelve from them, whom He also named apostles:
14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and his brother Andrew, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zealot,
16 Judas of James, and Judas Iscariot, who also became betrayer.

The one missing after the crucifixion:

Matthew 27:1-5 LSV
1 And morning having come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus, so as to put Him to death;
2 and having bound Him, they led [Him] away, and delivered Him up to Pontius Pilate, the governor.
3 Then Judas—he who delivered Him up—having seen that He was condemned, having regretted, brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and to the elders, saying,
4 "I sinned, having delivered up innocent blood"; and they said, "What [is that] to us? You will see!"
5 And having cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed, and having gone away, he strangled [hanged] himself.

Thus we have the twelve apostles and their names so that there be no doubt when we come to the problem text. Moreover there is no question which apostle is missing after the crucifixion, and more importantly, after the resurrection for the purposes of this thread topic. There is a critical difference between the two versions of the evening following the resurrection, and this same episode/event is recorded in Luke 24:33-49 and John 20:19-29.

The Gospel of Luke tells us that "the Eleven" were already there, gathered together with the others, when the two other disciples returned to Yerushalem following their journey to Emmaus because of their encounter with the risen Master.

Luke 24:33-49 LSV
33 And they, having risen up the same hour, turned back to Jerusalem, and found the Eleven gathered together, and those with them,
34 saying, "The Lord was indeed raised, and was seen by Simon";
35 and they were expounding the things in the way, and how He was made known to them in the breaking of the bread,
36 and as they are speaking these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and says to them, "Peace to you";
37 and being amazed, and becoming frightened, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts?
39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He; handle Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me having."
40 And having said this, He showed the hands and the feet to them,
41 and while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, He said to them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
42 And they gave to Him part of a broiled fish, and of a honeycomb,
43 and having taken, He ate before them,
44 and He said to them, "These [are] the words that I spoke to you, being yet with you, that it is necessary to be fulfilled all the things that are written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, about Me."
45 Then He opened up their understanding to understand the Writings,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it has been written, and thus it was necessary [for] the Christ to suffer, and to rise out of the dead [on] the third day,
47 and conversion and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in His Name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem:
48 and you are witnesses of these things.
49 And behold, I send the promise of My Father on you, but you—abide in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high."

However, if we read the companion passage in John 20:19-29, the number of the apostles that were present is not given, (for fairly obvious reasons imo), and therefore the critical issue is not so evident when the text says that Thomas was missing. However when comparing the Luke passage with the John companion passage the issue becomes readily apparent: according to the John passage both Judas the betrayer and Thomas are missing, and that is not eleven but rather only ten. I see no way around this, unless someone here might have an acceptable explanation based on scripture evidence and reasoning, for Luke is explicit that the eleven apostles, (without Judas the betrayed) were all present in this episode. In other words, according to Luke, Thomas was there.

John 20:19-29 LSV
19 It being, therefore, evening, on that day, the first [day] of the weeks, and the doors having been shut where the disciples were assembled through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, "Peace to you";
20 and having said this, He showed them His hands and side; the disciples, therefore, rejoiced, having seen the LORD.
21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again, "Peace to you; according as the Father has sent Me, I also send you";
22 having said this, He breathed on [them], and says to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit;
23 if you may forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you may retain of any, they have been retained."
24 And Thomas, one of the Twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came;
25 the other disciples, therefore, said to him, "We have seen the Lord!" And he said to them, "If I may not see the mark of the nails in His hands, and may [not] put my finger into the mark of the nails, and may [not] put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26 And after eight days, again His disciples were within, and Thomas [was] with them; Jesus comes, the doors having been shut, and He stood in the midst and said, "Peace to you!"
27 Then He says to Thomas, "Bring your finger here, and see My hands, and bring your hand, and put [it] into My side, and do not become unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus says to him, "Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed; blessed [are] those having not seen, and having believed."

Do you see what I see?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Luke 24:13 “Eleven Gathered Together” this compares with John 20:19-23 where there were only 10, with Thomas being absent John 20:24. Still known as “the eleven”.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you see what I see?

No, I don't, but I'm more the willing to hear what it is "you see"

I was curious about where Peter (10) was included in the 11, but clearly, he is in Luke 24:34...but I might be off as to what you are seeing.

I actually really enjoy this style of study as it gets you thinking!

 

[dak]

Luke 24:13 “Eleven Gathered Together” this compares with John 20:19-23 where there were only 10, with Thomas being absent John 20:24. Still known as “the eleven”.

No, I don't, but I'm more the willing to hear what it is "you see"

I was curious about where Peter (10) was included in the 11, but clearly, he is in Luke 24:34...but I might be off as to what you are seeing.

I actually really enjoy this style of study as it gets you thinking!

Well, to put it a little more bluntly, the Luke passage refutes the John passage: both cannot be true because they are the same episode or event, and Luke surely says that "the Eleven" were there, which means that Thomas was surely there according to Luke because the only one missing was the dead one, Judas the betrayer.

Moreover Paul at one time agreed with Luke but the later texts seem to have changed "the Eleven" to "the Twelve". This occurs in 1Cor 15:5. When you look through the commentaries the excuse making from scholarship becomes readily apparent. However there are a few that end up letting the cat out of the bag by admitting that some of the oldest texts actually read "the Eleven" in 1Cor 15:5.

All of the following quotes are from this link:

1 Corinthians 15:5 Commentaries: and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
5. seen of Cephas—Peter (Lu 24:34).
the twelve—The round number for "the Eleven" (Lu 24:33, 36). "The Twelve" was their ordinary appellation, even when their number was not full. However, very possibly Matthias was present (Ac 1:22, 23). Some of the oldest manuscripts and versions read, "the Eleven": but the best on the whole, "the Twelve."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
then of the twelve; though there were then but eleven of them, Judas being gone from them, and having destroyed himself; and at the first appearance of Christ to them, there were but ten present, Thomas being absent; and yet because their original number, when first chosen and called, were twelve, they still went by the same name; see John 20:24. The appearance or appearances here referred to are those in John 20:19. The Vulgate Latin reads the "eleven"; and so the Claromontane exemplar.

Bengel's Gnomen
1 Corinthians 15:5. κηφᾷ, of Cephas) Luke 24:34.—δώδεκα, twelve) Luke 24:36. It is probable that Matthias was then also present. Photius in his Amphilochia and others read ἕνδεκα.[133]
[133] D corrected later, Gfg. Vulg. and MSS., alluded to in Augustine, Photius, and Jerome, read ἔνδεκα. But AB Orig. 1, 434e read δωδεκα.—ED.

The one above misquotes Luke 24:34 instead of Luke 24:33 and then says that dodeka, (twelve), is in the Luke passage. I checked and it is not in any of the most important morph texts or the T/R. However he sure gives a decent list of manuscripts that contain the reading "the Eleven" in 1Cor 15:5.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 5. - Was seen of Cephas (Luke 24:34). The appearances to the women (John 20:14, etc.) are omitted, as being evidential rather to the apostles than to the world. The twelve (John 20:19, 26). Some officious scribes have in some manuscripts altered the word into "the eleven." But "the twelve" is here the designation of an office, and great ancient writers are always indifferent to mere pragmatic accuracy in trifles which involve nothing. To witness to the Resurrection was a main function of "the twelve" (Acts 2:23; Acts 3:15; Acts 10:40, etc.). 1 Corinthians 15:5

This one above states that some "officious scribes" have altered the word into "the eleven", but apparently he does not realize that he speaks of the OLDEST manuscripts, lol. That is about as far from genuine textual criticism as one can get.

If the original number given in 1Cor 15:5 was "the Eleven", instead of what it now reads, "the Twelve", all of the apologetic excuses you will see in the commentaries linked above become moot.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If the original number given in 1Cor 15:5 was "the Eleven", instead of what it now reads, "the Twelve", all of the apologetic excuses you will see in the commentaries linked above become moot.

A question. Could this difference be explained by those Jesus had seen and not seen? Just a thought...it's interesting and I'll review my library to see if I can add any commentaries.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The first appearance mentioned is that to Cephas; see Luke 24:34. The second occurred on the same day “to the eleven and those who were with them,” Luke 24:33–36. To this Paul refers by saying, “then to the twelve;” comp. also John 20:19. On this occasion, when the disciples were terrified by his sudden appearance in the midst of them, he said, “Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.” Luke 24:38–40. The apostles collectively, after the apostasy of Judas, are spoken of as the twelve according to a common usage, although at the time there were only eleven.

Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the First Epistle to the Corinthians (New York: Robert Carter & Brothers, 1857), 315.

How do you read the red text? "Common usage?"

 

[Hiddenthings]

But how is it that he says, that he appeared to the twelve, when, after the death of Judas, there were only eleven remaining? Chrysostom is of opinion that this took place after Matthias had been chosen in his room. Others have chosen rather to correct the expression, looking upon it as a mistake. But as we know, that there were twelve in number that were set apart by Christ’s appointment, though one of them had been expunged from the roll, there is no absurdity in supposing that the name was retained. On this principle, there was a body of men at Rome that were called Centumviri, while they were in number 102. By the twelve, therefore, you are simply to understand the chosen Apostles. It does not quite appear when it was that this appearing to more than five hundred took place. Only it is possible that this large multitude assembled at Jerusalem, when he manifested himself to them. For Luke (24:33) makes mention in a general way of the disciples who had assembled with the eleven; but how many there were he does not say. Chrysostom refers it to the ascension, and explains the word ἐπάνω to mean, from on high. Unquestionably, as to what he says in reference to his having appeared to James apart, this may have been subsequently to the ascension. By all the Apostles I understand not merely the twelve, but also those disciples to whom Christ had assigned the office of preaching the gospel. In proportion as our Lord was desirous that there should be many witnesses of his resurrection, and that it should be frequently testified of, let us know that it should be so much the more surely believed among us. (Luke 1:1.) Farther, inasmuch as the Apostle proves the resurrection of Christ from the fact that he appeared to many, he intimates by this, that it was not figurative but true and natural, for the eyes of the body cannot be witnesses of a spiritual resurrection.

John Calvin and John Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 10–12.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Acts 1:16–17 "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."

Have you seen this?

This would imply twelve were always intended.

 

[dak]

The first appearance mentioned is that to Cephas; see Luke 24:34. The second occurred on the same day “to the eleven and those who were with them,” Luke 24:33–36. To this Paul refers by saying, “then to the twelve;” comp. also John 20:19. On this occasion, when the disciples were terrified by his sudden appearance in the midst of them, he said, “Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.” Luke 24:38–40. The apostles collectively, after the apostasy of Judas, are spoken of as the twelve according to a common usage, although at the time there were only eleven.

Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the First Epistle to the Corinthians (New York: Robert Carter & Brothers, 1857), 315.

How do you read the red text? "Common usage?"

That's merely the same excuse the other commentaries use which were linked to above.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's merely the same excuse the other commentaries use which were linked to above.

Yeah so a genuine mistake or inferring there were 12 always regardless of Judas' departure?

 

[dak]

But how is it that he says, that he appeared to the twelve, when, after the death of Judas, there were only eleven remaining? Chrysostom is of opinion that this took place after Matthias had been chosen in his room. Others have chosen rather to correct the expression, looking upon it as a mistake. But as we know, that there were twelve in number that were set apart by Christ’s appointment, though one of them had been expunged from the roll, there is no absurdity in supposing that the name was retained. On this principle, there was a body of men at Rome that were called Centumviri, while they were in number 102. By the twelve, therefore, you are simply to understand the chosen Apostles. It does not quite appear when it was that this appearing to more than five hundred took place. Only it is possible that this large multitude assembled at Jerusalem, when he manifested himself to them. For Luke (24:33) makes mention in a general way of the disciples who had assembled with the eleven; but how many there were he does not say. Chrysostom refers it to the ascension, and explains the word ἐπάνω to mean, from on high. Unquestionably, as to what he says in reference to his having appeared to James apart, this may have been subsequently to the ascension. By all the Apostles I understand not merely the twelve, but also those disciples to whom Christ had assigned the office of preaching the gospel. In proportion as our Lord was desirous that there should be many witnesses of his resurrection, and that it should be frequently testified of, let us know that it should be so much the more surely believed among us. (Luke 1:1.) Farther, inasmuch as the Apostle proves the resurrection of Christ from the fact that he appeared to many, he intimates by this, that it was not figurative but true and natural, for the eyes of the body cannot be witnesses of a spiritual resurrection.

John Calvin and John Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 10–12.

Again just a variation of the other rehashed commentaries linked above. But as far as Matthias already having been chosen to replace the betrayer, the context of Luke pretty much forbids such reasoning or explanation: it is the evening of the third day, the day of the resurrection. The two walking to Emmaus mention this in that very morning, (see Luke 24:13 and 24:21).

 

[dak]

Acts 1:16–17 "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."

Have you seen this?

This would imply twelve were always intended.

Yes, of course I have seen (and studied) it. The fact that twelve were always intended does not change the fact that at this point Luke, (and probably Paul too), count "the Eleven" in that particular evening. They are telling us something incredibly important: Thomas was indeed there at that time because Judas the dead betrayer was the only one missing and Matthias was not yet chosen to replace him.

So what is at stake here?
Only one of the most important statements to Trinitarian Christianity:

John 20:24-29 KJV
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, of course I have seen (and studied) it. The fact that twelve were always intended does not change the fact that at this point Luke, (and probably Paul too), count "the Eleven" in that particular evening. They are telling us something incredibly important: Thomas was indeed there at that time because Judas the dead betrayer was the only one missing and Matthias was not yet chosen to replace him.

So what is at stake here?
Only one of the most important statements to Trinitarian Christianity:

John 20:24-29 KJV
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In the 1st Century, it was common for Roman citizens to greet one another with the phrase “Caesar is Lord.” Emperor Domitian even demanded to be addressed in official documents as “Our Lord and God,” and personally as “My Lord God Domitian.” So when Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God,” it likely wasn’t in the Trinitarian sense later theology would suggest. Instead, his words may have expressed loyalty to Jesus as God's appointed Son and representative, a conscious rejection of emperor worship and a bold statement of allegiance to the true authority from God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I find it strange how some believers try to impose their own dogma onto verses like this, which, in reality, offer no context to support their views. Instead of accepting the Apostle's straightforward understanding that Christ has a Father and a God, they complicate things where no complexity exists.

 

[dak]

I find it strange how some believers try to impose their own dogma onto verses like this, which, in reality, offer no context to support their views. Instead of accepting the Apostle's straightforward understanding that Christ has a Father and a God, they complicate things where no complexity exists.

Surely you can count up to twelve, but I suppose I already understand why you would say what you do: however this thread is not about your opinions of me or anyone else, so please keep them to yourself and do your best to stay on topic.

You asked me what I see and I told you, and I will add to it this: I see what appears to be smoking gun evidence that a whole pericope was inserted into the Gospel of John in order to support someone else's dogma. If you cannot see it, what is that to me?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Surely you can count up to twelve, but I suppose I already understand why you would say what you do: however this thread is not about your opinions of me or anyone else, so please keep them to yourself and do your best to stay on topic.

You asked me what I see and I told you, and I will add to it this: I see what appears to be smoking gun evidence that a whole pericope was inserted into the Gospel of John in order to support someone else's dogma. If you cannot see it, what is that to me?

My comment was in relation to your point on "Only one of the most important statements to Trinitarian Christianity"

 

[dak]

My comment was in relation to your point on "Only one of the most important statements to Trinitarian Christianity"

Perhaps that's why you shouldn't be harassing and smearing people to begin with: now you try to have a civil conversation, and I don't even trust you anymore or believe much of what you say. So as far as I was concerned your previous comments were directed at me just as that was the norm expected from you before this thread. You already ruined your reputation with someone you had never met before.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Perhaps that's why you shouldn't be harassing and smearing people to begin with: now you try to have a civil conversation, and I don't even trust you anymore or believe much of what you say. So as far as I was concerned your previous comments were directed at me just as that was the norm expected from you before this thread. You already ruined your reputation with someone you had never met before.

You're hurting because you couldn’t prove or support your false doctrine, and you're not alone; many in this forum are in the same boat. The weight of the evidence can be confronting, especially for those with a more sensitive disposition. Some, like yourself, choose to withdraw, while others roll up their sleeves and engage with the subject head-on.

 

[dak]

You're hurting because you couldn’t prove or support your false doctrine, and you're not alone; many in this forum are in the same boat. The weight of the evidence can be confronting, especially for those with a more sensitive disposition. Some, like yourself, choose to withdraw, while others roll up their sleeves and engage with the subject head-on.

Awe, I was hoping for a fresh restart with you: but you did not answer in such a manner that would allow it. Howbeit, back to the topic, please do your best to stay on-topic from here on.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Awe, I was hoping for a fresh restart with you: but you did not answer in such a manner that would allow it. Howbeit, back to the topic, please do your best to stay on-topic from here on.

You shut the door by being overly sensitive and quick to take offense. Now, your only option seems to be retreating into your cave and staying there until you feel it's safe to emerge.

When you do, I'll here ready to engage!