WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[Behold]

@Fred J

Actually the term BORN AGAIN is what is making it difficult for me to understand John 3.5

""God is A Spirit."" KJV

Inside each of us is a spirit. Our Spirit is the real us......The body is the container...only.

Etermal Salvation is when We are forgivens all our sin, and God births our Spirit, into Himself.

We are borm again, INTO God, who is A Spirit...(The Holy Spirit).......so this is our born again spirit = becoming ONE< with God's Spirit.

This is eternal spiritual union restored.........and that is to be "BORN.. .again".. as a "NEW CREATION">..

A.) "One with God"......."IN Christ".

 

[JohnDB]

Ok....
Let's go back to the settings on the occasion this happened. "He went unto his own and his own received him not".
Jesus knew ALL the Messianic scriptures.

He KNEW He was largely going to be rejected by His own special people. A race/nation of Priests.

So, out of the blue, a single lone Pharisee believes that Jesus is performing miracles by the power of God. He is a member of the sanhedrin. The ruling council.

Jesus had been preaching to hundreds to thousands of people every single day.
Only to be ignored by most, a few poked fun at him, a few tried to expose him to be nothing more than a deluded fool...

But Nicodemus comes with friendship in all sincerity....believing God is, at a minimum, using Jesus to utilize his power to heal people of maladies that have no cure.

Jesus also KNOWS HE, himself is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven....wherever He is...He is in charge. (The whole earth is mine, sayeth the Lord)

What Jesus is essentially telling Nicodemus is that people cannot see him unless God has ordained it. There only was going to be a few....and Nicodemus is one of the few.

"No one can recognize me unless he is a Born from Above person." Is essentially what Jesus tells Nicodemus. Nicodemus didn't need to change or do anything different ....Israel needed to change to be more like Nicodemus. But God had deemed otherwise (...."otherwise they might turn their hearts and be healed ")

So....in the end it was a grand total of 212 people....not an entire nation of Priests He trained. Although after Pentacost it was about 2,000 people. Still not a nation of Priests.

 

[JohnDB]

This explains this verse....


Romans 11:2 ESV
[2] God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Romans 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

bible.com

 

[Fred J]

I agree with you that sometimes we spend too much time on a word, on these Forums.
I tend to keep away from this.

There is one word, however, that is worth discussing, but it is not the subject of this thread...
that word is BELIEVE. Some just don't seem to understand it and it's pivotal to our understanding of following Jesus.

Born from above and born again, in today's parlance means the same.

It's a spiritual birth.
The problem is that some know much more about the Jewish language and history....hermeneutics will cover it....than the rest of us.
@JohnDB happens to be one of those persons.

I think it would be good to listen to what they have to say instead of fighting them all the way.

Since we won't easily be understanding the difference, and I put myself in the mix, we should at least admit that we don't know everything that would be necessary to know.

2 Timothy 3:
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

How many explanation in my given reply have been posted, until to the point you folks accused the church fathers for changing words in translation.

Until i replied back again, this has been done under the watch of the FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost, so how can it be wrong?

Meaning, GOD allowed the correct translation to the first generation of church, and allowed the incorrect translation to deceive the next, and allowed the correct one once again making it right to the present?

For the Holy Ghost within us who'll lead us into the full truth, and according to the context of the New Testament dogma 'at hand'.

Apparently confirms, whether 'born from above' or 'born again', it's referring to the same thing pertaining to 'spiritual birth'.

How about addressing 'JohnDB' openly in the same manner too, who's likewise fighting us all the way as well.

Again, if you have ears, listen and pay attention.

Which is the right translation in verse 3, 'born from above' or 'born again'?

If the right translation is 'born from above', Nicodemus a Pharisee believe in the 'resurrection of life'.

As also Martha perceive in regards Lazarus's death that he'll live again in the 'resurrection of life, when Jesus said, Your brother will live.

Therefore Nicodemus understand too, that he have to die and come back to life again in the 'resurrection of life', if the translation is 'born from above'.

Now if the translation is 'born again', it makes so much sense to Nicodemus when He's already born once, for him to respond accordingly;

John 3:
4. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Fred J]

I'm even having difficulty understanding what the word WATER means in John 3:5.

It makes so much sense for it to mean physical birth.
But we all know we have to be born FIRST.

So maybe it IS baptism.

Is the understanding of this a salvific issue?
I don't believe so.

Verse 3, Jesus said, A man must be 'born again', or he cannot 'see' the Kingdom of GOD.

'Born again' meaning 'Reborn', since everyone already had a child birth once before from their mother's womb and water bag

Then verse 5, Jesus said, A man must be born of water and of the Holy Ghost, or he cannot 'enter' the Kingdom of GOD.

Therefore Jesus is not taking about the natural birth He also once had, but a 'spiritual birth' by 'water baptism' and 'Holy Ghost baptism'.

That's why in the river Jordon, Himself took water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism at the same time.

The natural water flood cleansed the earth once during Noah's time, having 8 souls to start over again.

Natural water was used by the Jews according to the Law for cleansing purposes.

Jesus used natural water to wash the disciples' feet.

Only to Biblical reference cum according to the Old or New Testament covenant era, water is used for cleansing purposes.

Other than that, it is all man made further tradition, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

2 Timothy 3:
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

How many explanation in my given reply have been posted, until to the point you folks accused the church fathers for changing words in translation.

Until i replied back again, this has been done under the watch of the FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost, so how can it be wrong?

Meaning, GOD allowed the correct translation to the first generation of church, and allowed the incorrect translation to deceive the next, and allowed the correct one once again making it right to the present?

For the Holy Ghost within us who'll lead us into the full truth, and according to the context of the New Testament dogma 'at hand'.

Apparently confirms, whether 'born from above' or 'born again', it's referring to the same thing pertaining to 'spiritual birth'.

How about addressing 'JohnDB' openly in the same manner too, who's likewise fighting us all the way as well.

Again, if you have ears, listen and pay attention.

Which is the right translation in verse 3, 'born from above' or 'born again'?

If the right translation is 'born from above', Nicodemus a Pharisee believe in the 'resurrection of life'.

As also Martha perceive in regards Lazarus's death that he'll live again in the 'resurrection of life, when Jesus said, Your brother will live.

Therefore Nicodemus understand too, that he have to die and come back to life again in the 'resurrection of life', if the translation is 'born from above'.

Now if the translation is 'born again', it makes so much sense to Nicodemus when He's already born once, for him to respond accordingly;

John 3:
4. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

Ok....but Fred,
You keep adding words to the scripture to arrive at your theological position.

Jesus does not tell Nicodemus that he "needs to become" .

It's as simple as that.

I refuse to add words to scripture. YMMV.

 

[Fred J]

Ok....but Fred,
You keep adding words to the scripture to arrive at your theological position.

Jesus does not tell Nicodemus that he "needs to become" .

It's as simple as that.

I refuse to add words to scripture. YMMV.

That's where we differ, as you refuse to add words to the scripture because you gained not the wisdom, but merely repeating what's of others.

On the other hand we too don't add words, but rather according to the wisdom given us we explain in other words what the scripture meant.

Your 'shortsightedness' is 'exposed' based on this Nicodemus encounter with Jesus story in John chapter 3.

Simple, only a non born again from above and out of his carnal curiosity, would ask Jesus such a carnally discerned question.

Unlike His disciples who are born again from above, had never address such an awkward issue to Jesus. (including me, whether 'born again' or 'born from above')

This is because from time to time they do receive revelational insight from above to perceive what they're witnessing, even scripturally besides discipleship.

It's not like the 12 disciples just out of the blue, gave up or left behind everything and followed a commoner to death(Isaiah53), without divine intervention.

They stand out besides Nicodemus who had no divine birth nor divine intervention encounter as to the New Testament to respond correctly.

And Jesus knowing this, did not neither waste time giving him a tutorial session about born again from above.

This is because Nicodemus is among the 'blind guides' of Israel in the time of Jesus.

Or is written, 'The god of this world have blinded the minds of unbelievers.'

(basically is folly to make or to force a blind man see what you see)

But Jesus was kind enough to give him two important lesson for a start, in verse 3&5, which Nicodemus himself had not attained yet.

That both of these divine procedure 'verily' has to be accomplished in Nicodemus or in any man first of all.

Before they'll be able to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom of GOD, and 'proclaim' correctly about it.

It's disturbing when you testify a twisted version of that story, finishing off by justifying, Jesus does not tell Nicodemus that he needs to become?

Jesus personally addressed this statement to Nicodemus, 'Except a man', him included, 'be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD.'

Next verse, and unable to see the Kingdom of GOD Nicodemus apparently responds in an unsaved carnal manner.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[JohnDB]

That's where we differ, as you refuse to add words to the scripture

And this is why I am never going to agree with you. I'm going to agree with the rest of Christianity outside of America.

And as far as the question Nicodemus asked....
Most of those in this Born from Above Caste had parents who talked personally with angels and prophets. His parents had not. Those of this Caste usually lived lives of exceptional purity such as Sampson with the Nazarite vows. (Which he failed at miserably)

This is why Nicodemus was asking about a whole life "do over"....he didn't know anything that made his life special...except for his recognition of Jesus's miracles being from God.

This is also another reason why Americans have a difficult time with this section. We are not accustomed to having Caste life here in our society.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not trying to play a game here.

Do you agree with those above facts that are generally speaking not contested?


I'm not reading anything "extra" into the text. I'm going by strictly what scripture says. I'm suggesting that others have done as you have said and it's become a long standing tradition since it's marketing campaign for proselytizing at the turn of the century after WW1.

Look again at the uncontested facts. Let me know if you agree or disagree with them. Simple request. No game playing here. (I'm not good at games whatsoever)

I agree with this

If water equals baptism. When Jesus told nicodemus how to be born again (vs10-18)

He would have mentioned baptism

The fact he did not proves that baptism was never in context or question

It would go like this

Just as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness so to
Must the son of man be lifted up. That whoever believes and gets baptized will never perish but have eternal
Life. For the son was not sent to judge by to help man get saved. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him and gets baptized will Never perish but have eternal life. He who believes and gets baptized is not condemned. But he who does not believe or believes but does Not get baptized is condemned already

If water in 3: 5 means water baptism Jesus should have said something like above. The fact he did not proves water does not equal baptism in water

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'd like @Eternally Grateful to read this too, although I already know he won't agree.

The phrase BORN AGAIN did not exist in the early church.
A SPIRITUAL birth was recognized, but not being born again as is taught these days.

I've stopped fighting this many years ago.
Many incorrect doctrine have come about that did not exist in the early church.
I wish every Christian would study church history, but it's really frowned upon.

What the early fathers taught, those taught by the Apostles....
is that we are to believe in God.
Believe in His presence, His reality.
And then we are to obey God.
This is really all they taught...everything else is details.

Now, I have read what you post here about the meaning of being BORN FROM ABOVE...
but it's pretty useless to try and communicate this to us - I include myself because I find that if I insist on
the true meaning - it become impossible to move on to the topic at hand.

I have to use the term born again, instead of spiritual birth, because it's the only way to be understood in our parlance.

This misuse of scripture causes many problems for Christianity.
It causes many to believe doctrine that is nowhere to be found in Christianity.
It's causing Christianity to become so watered down as to be unrecognizable.
It's causing division between us which JESUS DID NOT WANT.

We would need to get back to the beginning....
but who would be willing?
Not those taught by churches that teach these new ideas that we not existant in the Apostles and those they taught.

Sorry for rambling...
sometimes I just need to say this.

(even though no one listens).

I wish @godgrace would just stick to the word. Not history

Of Course eg can not see for the reason shown above

If a man comes and says otherwise. Why should I listen to him. Be it today or 2000 years ago?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@JohnDB is right EG.

No he is not

I've been saying this for a long time but I know it falls on deaf ears.

You ARE reading stuff into the NT that isn't there.
How do we know it isn't there?
Because those that LIVED at that time and KNEW Jewish language and how it was used
did NOT believe what some churches have been teaching in our time.

So do we believe what WE today understand the NT to teach...
or should we believe what the church was teaching right after Jesus ascended?

It's impossible to discuss this due to the total absorbtion of these new ideas,
so I don't bring it up a lot.
Why? Not because I don't know this, but because it would make any conversation impossible to have because we'd have to
debate this first before continuing.

We've messed up Christianity.
I fear for its future.

You are reading stuff into it not me sis. Here you argue t fails. It is you seeing baptism where it is not found. Not me

Again I took Jesus at his word.

He who believes as opposed to he who does not believe

Focus on what it means to not believe maybe this will help you. You keep trying to add works to belief. When we are saved the moment we trust God and recive him. And God changes us. It is his work in us that causes us to do works. Not our own power

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's where we differ, as you refuse to add words to the scripture because you gained not the wisdom, but merely repeating what's of others.

On the other hand we too don't add words, but rather according to the wisdom given us we explain in other words what the scripture meant.

Your 'shortsightedness' is 'exposed' based on this Nicodemus encounter with Jesus story in John chapter 3.

Simple, only a non born again from above and out of his carnal curiosity, would ask Jesus such a carnally discerned question.

Unlike His disciples who are born again from above, had never address such an awkward issue to Jesus. (including me, whether 'born again' or 'born from above')

This is because from time to time they do receive revelational insight from above to perceive what they're witnessing, even scripturally besides discipleship.

It's not like the 12 disciples just out of the blue, gave up or left behind everything and followed a commoner to death(Isaiah53), without divine intervention.

They stand out besides Nicodemus who had no divine birth nor divine intervention encounter as to the New Testament to respond correctly.

And Jesus knowing this, did not neither waste time giving him a tutorial session about born again from above.

This is because Nicodemus is among the 'blind guides' of Israel in the time of Jesus.

Or is written, 'The god of this world have blinded the minds of unbelievers.'

(basically is folly to make or to force a blind man see what you see)

But Jesus was kind enough to give him two important lesson for a start, in verse 3&5, which Nicodemus himself had not attained yet.

That both of these divine procedure 'verily' has to be accomplished in Nicodemus or in any man first of all.

Before they'll be able to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom of GOD, and 'proclaim' correctly about it.

It's disturbing when you testify a twisted version of that story, finishing off by justifying, Jesus does not tell Nicodemus that he needs to become?

Jesus personally addressed this statement to Nicodemus, 'Except a man', him included, 'be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD.'

Next verse, and unable to see the Kingdom of GOD Nicodemus apparently responds in an unsaved carnal manner.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

FYI Jesus as much as told nicodemus as a teacher he should have already known this.

 

[JohnDB]

No he is not

You are reading stuff into it not me sis. Here you argue t fails. It is you seeing baptism where it is not found. Not me

Again I took Jesus at his word.

He who believes as opposed to he who does not believe

Focus on what it means to not believe maybe this will help you. You keep trying to add works to belief. When we are saved the moment we trust God and recive him. And God changes us. It is his work in us that causes us to do works. Not our own power

How am I wrong?

How is the "Water" not a euphemism for the Law of God?
(Which is something Nicodemus knew well)

"wash her with the water of the word"

"...the earth was formed out of water and by water" (meaning God's words are Law)

these are Direct quotes by two different Apostles taught by Jesus Speaking casually and instructionally.

The Spirit? Well, that's God's choice right there.

And

How is it that a Caste based society does not have a Caste system for the heroes mentioned in their history?
That's kinda wrong on many levels.

Caste based societal living is extremely addictive for people. While today YouTubers and TicTokers all behave ridiculous for their 15 minutes of fame...Caste based societies had their status already carved out...and they clung to it as their lifeline.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How am I wrong?

How is the "Water" not a euphemism for the Law of God?
(Which is something Nicodemus knew well)

Why would I want to think it is euphemism of the law

Can the law clean.?

"wash her with the water of the word"

Yes the gospel
Is what cleanse. But why would we think water is about cleansing and not physical birth?

However. If this is what your saying this would met more applicable than saying water is water baptism

"...the earth was formed out of water and by water" (meaning God's words are Law)

these are Direct quotes by two different Apostles taught by Jesus Speaking casually and instructionally.

The Spirit? Well, that's God's choice right there.

And

How is it that a Caste based society does not have a Caste system for the heroes mentioned in their history?
That's kinda wrong on many levels.

Caste based societal living is extremely addictive for people. While today YouTubers and TicTokers all behave ridiculous for their 15 minutes of fame...Caste based societies had their status already carved out...and they clung to it as their lifeline.

I thought you were defending what baptism so I misunderstood you.

Born of water (the word) and spirit

This could apply to what Jesus said

 

[JohnDB]

Why would I want to think it is euphemism of the law

Can the law clean.?


Yes the gospel
Is what cleanse. But why would we think water is about cleansing and not physical birth?

However. If this is what your saying this would met more applicable than saying water is water baptism

I thought you were defending what baptism so I misunderstood you.

Born of water (the word) and spirit

This could apply to what Jesus said

This is where a smidgen of knowledge of Hebrew has its perks.

Torah....God's Law....sometimes translated as "Book of the Law" as commonly seen in Joshua 1:8. But in original Hebrew it says "Torah"....meaning the exact same thing.

What we don't see or customarily know is that in Hebrew there is a word meaning ceremonially clean. (What handwashing was supposed to provide but a Mikveh did for the priests before they put on priestly robes)
Tohörah is the word.
Basically it's the word Torah but with a little breath in the middle of it. (Breath/wind also an equivalent to Spirit)

The two words together made a once common "tongue twister" learned in gradeschool...about 2,000 years ago in Ancient Israel by children.

But it basically was inferring that knowing God's word will make you spiritually clean.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Timothy 3:
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

How many explanation in my given reply have been posted, until to the point you folks accused the church fathers for changing words in translation.

Until i replied back again, this has been done under the watch of the FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost, so how can it be wrong?

Meaning, GOD allowed the correct translation to the first generation of church, and allowed the incorrect translation to deceive the next, and allowed the correct one once again making it right to the present?

For the Holy Ghost within us who'll lead us into the full truth, and according to the context of the New Testament dogma 'at hand'.

Apparently confirms, whether 'born from above' or 'born again', it's referring to the same thing pertaining to 'spiritual birth'.

How about addressing 'JohnDB' openly in the same manner too, who's likewise fighting us all the way as well.

Again, if you have ears, listen and pay attention.

Which is the right translation in verse 3, 'born from above' or 'born again'?

If you insist Fred...but this is not what this thread is about....

The correct translation for
John 3:3 is BORN FROM ABOVE.

Other verses where this word is used:


John 3:31
He who comes from ABOVE

John 19:11
Unless it had been given to you from ABOVE

If the right translation is 'born from above', Nicodemus a Pharisee believe in the 'resurrection of life'.

As also Martha perceive in regards Lazarus's death that he'll live again in the 'resurrection of life, when Jesus said, Your brother will live.

Therefore Nicodemus understand too, that he have to die and come back to life again in the 'resurrection of life', if the translation is 'born from above'.

Now if the translation is 'born again', it makes so much sense to Nicodemus when He's already born once, for him to respond accordingly;

John 3:
4. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

No he is not

You are reading stuff into it not me sis. Here you argue t fails. It is you seeing baptism where it is not found. Not me

Again I took Jesus at his word.

He who believes as opposed to he who does not believe

Focus on what it means to not believe maybe this will help you. You keep trying to add works to belief. When we are saved the moment we trust God and recive him. And God changes us. It is his work in us that causes us to do works. Not our own power

LOL
Someone on another Forum just stated that Jesus died to be our Savior
NOT so that we could change!

It's just too much EG.

The whole point of knowing Jesus is so that we CAN change!

 

[GodsGrace]

I wish @godgrace would just stick to the word. Not history

Of Course eg can not see for the reason shown above

If a man comes and says otherwise. Why should I listen to him. Be it today or 2000 years ago?

LOL
Because those of 2 thousand years ago were taught by THE APOSTLES!!
The Apostles were taught by JESUS!!

This means nothing to you?
I used to agree...until I started to read.

 

[GodsGrace]

No he is not

You are reading stuff into it not me sis. Here you argue t fails. It is you seeing baptism where it is not found. Not me

Again I took Jesus at his word.

He who believes as opposed to he who does not believe

Focus on what it means to not believe maybe this will help you.

Those who do NOT believe, do NOT obey.

In Greek,,,,to disbelieve means to disobey.

YOU should focus on what it means to disobey EG.

It means the person is not saved.

This is needed for salvation.

1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.

See.
Easy.

You keep trying to add works to belief. When we are saved the moment we trust God and recive him. And God changes us. It is his work in us that causes us to do works. Not our own power

We can't do anything without the power of God.
Why bring up this strawman?

Who ever said otherwise??

WORKS are added to belief.

Jesus spoke about works.....
I'm just posting what Jesus said.

 

[Gary Mac]

Here is who Jesus said he was in God, and the same holds true in myself, same mind is in me who was in Jesus.
Funny how people read who Jesus said he was in God and do not believe him at all and make him something he isnt, or wasn't, at all.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.