Again try to focus if faith is all that's necessary why does it need to be shown to anybody? Only God needs to know you have faith. Fact is a faith without worms is incomplete. Dead. How does a dead faith save? Oh that's right it doesn't
Paul's Gospel
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You REALLY can't follow along can you? Required is NOT the same as sufficient. I never said works weren't required
What have I said? Try to focus, i know you can do it
Behold
Well-Known Member
The reason that Faith has to be "shown" to a sinner, as part of Paul's Gospel, is because a sinner has no way to be accepted by God.
What can a SINNER offer Holy God, so that God will save them. ?????
"well God, i'll stop sinning for a few weeks.......I'll REPENT"
God must just try not to laugh at such brain dead foolishness in the mind of carnal minded self righteous people.
So, FAITH is the only thing a SINNER can Give God that isn't tainted by SIN.
Faith in the heart of a sinner is precious in the eyes of God because its genuine and lovely and true.
Also, God and Christ get all the Credit for Salvation, because THEY DID IT.
So, nothing is more "stuck on stupid" then a sinner, who has been saved by God..... who is now trying to argue how they have to keep themselves saved by something they must DO.
Faith does not save at all.
Only Jesus Saves.
You're babbling. Faith matters only to God. I dont need to show my faith to you I need to show my faith to God by completing my faith by works just liek James said.
Jesus weeps that you were given a brain thats capable of reason but you refuse to use.
So if Jesus saves then we dont even need faith. Excellent. You're so confused lol
Behold
Well-Known Member
Faith does not save you.
Faith does not save anyone.
Did faith die on The Cross?
Did Water Baptism?
Did the Eucharist ?
Did Mary?
So, when you want Salvation, you go to The Cross... Because the Savior died on it for you, so that you may be saved.
God requires you to believe this, and if you do, then God will accept you faiith in Christ, INSTANTLY, and give you His Salvation that Jesus has Died to produce, that is eternal.
Do you keep yourself saved? Only if you saved yourself to begin with...... @nedsk
You REALLY can't follow along can you? Required is NOT the same as sufficient. Works are required
Behold
Well-Known Member
A saved sinner's works are not requried to stay saved.
See, Salvation can't be earned and can't be kept.......it can only be Received, because it "The GIFT of Salvation".
You dont work for a "GIFT"......
It's amazing how unhinged you get. Do I keep myself saved? Kind of. According to Scripture if I don't feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, greet strangers, tend to the sick or visit prisoners I won't inherit the kingdom and just saying Lord, Lord won't do me a bit of good.
But I do like that you've abandoned the silly notion that faith alone saves. You're making progress
Behold
Well-Known Member
That you can't comprehend basic NT theology, is a testament against your MaryCult.
If you keep yourself saved then you are denying that Jesus saved you.
Are you literally too stupid to realize what you are saying? @nedsk ?
You've not made any progress, toward realizing that Jesus is the Savior and your works are just works.
Could your works save you before Jesus saved you?
And now you believe they can save you, when they couldn't before?
So, im sensing that you are not a critical thinker, or perhaps one at all.
Also, I was teaching that Only Jesus saves, as "Christ Crucified" before you were a zygote..
i am a critical thinker and im critical of your thinking. Anyone who listens to you will be as lost as you are. Scripture is clear if you dont feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, care for the sick, greet strangers or visit prisoners you wont inherit the kingdom. I dont need to be a "critical" thinker to read and understand what is plainly written. You on the other hand stink of pride. The best part is your rancid stench doesnt affect me other than make the environment rank with heresy
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Example:
If one is going to choose to understand the following in a metaphorical way then, if indeed there is a metaphorical way already expounded in the scripture, the scripture understanding is the correct metaphorical understanding. This is even more emphatically true if the metaphorical understanding is taught in the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts.
Here is the metaphorical understanding, not according to me, but the Testimony of the Meshiah.
Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
This is the only place where the salt command, referenced in Mark 9:49, is given:
Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Why is the Master reminding them of a commandment given only to the Kohanim in Lev 2:13? Why is it that he speaks of chopping off body parts as if they are sacrificial oblations needing to be salted? These things were intended from the very beginning: from the day Levi kept the covenant in Exo 32:26-29, as it is written in the blessing of Mosheh upon Levi in Deut 33:9.
Note also that the other quote in the Mark passage is from Isaiah 66:24.
Isaiah 66:18-24 KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:43-50] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Now look what the OG LXX version says in verse twenty-four: it is not carcasses or whole bodies: it is limbs, as if chopped off, just as in the Mark 9 passage.
Isaiah 66:24 OG LXX
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι
The LXX uses κωλον, (κωλα is a plural form), which is not actually carcasses but rather a limb or limbs of the body, as having been chopped off or lopped off. Pretty gruesome, eh? Yes, because it is metaphorical apocalyptic language.
Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries
G2966 κῶλον kolon (kō'-lon) n.
a limb of the body (as if lopped).
[from the base of G2849]
KJV: carcase
Therefore the metaphorical understanding of the new heavens and the new earth cannot be an "all-at-once" outward event for everyone all at the same point in time in history: for according to the Testimony of the Meshiah it is dependent upon each disciple believing, walking in his Testimony, and doing what he says. Is the Master going to cut off your offensive hand or foot or pluck out your offensive eye for you? No, because that would deny us the opportunity to prove our love for the Father and His Word, and the Testimony of His Son. The Gospel is personal, private, and individual: to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed of the Father, and no one but the Father knows the day or the hour.
So then, even according to the metaphorical understanding, the new heavens and new earth are not going to come into being without walking in, and doing the commandments of the Master, in the patience and faithfulness of the holy ones. I suppose therefore the best advice regarding these things would be to get to it, and get to plucking, chopping, and lopping off offensive limbs, hand, foot, eye, etc., but of course that is also metaphoric, and surely apocalyptic language.
It is really all about cutting off sin because sin is personified, and sin dwells in the flesh, (Romans 7), the outer bounds commons or profane area of your body temple. Paul also relates it in this manner: mortify the deeds/works of the body, mortify your members upon(concerning) the earth, present your body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto Elohim, which is your reasonable service.
If you indeed cut off those unruly members of your household, mortify them, put them to death, put them to sleep, then how can you possibly be observing the Torah according the carnal minded Sanhedrin, Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes? That would indeed be observing according the flesh and the natural minded natural man, and therefore you would not be able to be pleasing unto Elohim because you would not be able to be subject to His Torah, because the Torah is spiritual. Therefore all one needs to do to begin with, (for starters), is to stop interpreting the Torah according to the natural minded understandings and teachings of the Pharisees. Why continue to side with them in understanding the Torah? When we side with them we reject the teachings of both the Master and Paul.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I follow along well.
Your one of the many people who come into chatrooms screaming about works. they deny your even talking about them
I know what you said.
I am worried. you do not understand what you believe
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
if they are required.
then you are preaching works
yet how many times have you denied it?
come on man.
they are not sufficient either
the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is life
works have no part of either
they can not pay for sin to remove the wage,
and they can not pay for the gift. which was paid in full by christ
that is the gospel message (good news)
we can stop from our work in trying to save ourselves. or meet Gods standard. and enter his rest. knowing he took it all
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
hey bud
If you think the law will make you right with God
feel free.
I am done trying to explain it..
But I will leave you with this
gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
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"The works of the Law" was an idiom used for the outward, physical, natural minded teachings of the Pharisees, and physical circumcision was/is the seal when one enters into their conversion scheme. Once an adherent was/is circumcised he has made a commitment to follow ALL the ways and teachings of the Pharisees, (in their so-called "oral law", now written down in the Talmud).
This is why Paul rails against physical circumcision so much: for once one became circumcised he was obligated to begin learning and adhering to all of their doctrines, dogmas, decrees, handwritten ordinances, and teachings. In such a case, for example the Galatians, if they did this then Meshiah would profit them nothing, (no one can serve two masters). However circumcision is truly of the heart, even according to the Torah, and therefore it applies to even females in the Doctrine of the Meshiah: and that is why Paul states that Meshiah has become the Minister of the circumcision, (Rom 15:8).
It seems to me that you are not really interested in studying to understand the writings of Paul and rather simply appropriate cherry-picked verses from his writings to make your own doctrine seem scriptural. If you are truly done trying to explain your view to me, fear not, I already know it quite well.
This is why Paul rails against physical circumcision so much: for once one became circumcised he was obligated to begin learning and adhering to all of their doctrines, dogmas, decrees, handwritten ordinances, and teachings. In such a case, for example the Galatians, if they did this then Meshiah would profit them nothing, (no one can serve two masters). However circumcision is truly of the heart, even according to the Torah, and therefore it applies to even females in the Doctrine of the Meshiah: and that is why Paul states that Meshiah has become the Minister of the circumcision, (Rom 15:8).
It seems to me that you are not really interested in studying to understand the writings of Paul and rather simply appropriate cherry-picked verses from his writings to make your own doctrine seem scriptural. If you are truly done trying to explain your view to me, fear not, I already know it quite well.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”
Anyone who did not keep every word. was cursed. As james said, If we only break one command, and not even on purpose. by stumbling over one point. we are guilty. and hence cursed.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
paul made it clear. No one could be saved by keeping the law. Because
1. You must keep every word (perfection, remember jesus said be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect)
2. It exposed how sinfull we are (because we cannot keep the law)
and it should lead us to christ.
gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
so here we have
Moses who gave the law demanding perfection. or cursed if you break one point
James, a NT author who confirms what Paul said, and reiterates if we even stumble in one point, we are guilty
And paul also showing plain and simple. the law cannever save anyone.
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That will be answered below by your own post.
I am not of the works of the law. You are not fully comprehending what you are reading. OF the works of the law means that one believes that he or she will be saved BY doing "the works of the law", which is an idiom for the carnal minded Pharisee way. I've explained this to you already: why can you not hear what I say? I am not a Pharisee, and in fact, you yourself believe many of their teachings, including the carnal understanding of the supposed animal sacrifices in the Torah. Even the Prophets and Writings (especially the Psalms) tell you that the Torah sacrifices are not about killing innocent animals and offering them to Elohim for your sins.
Yes, that is true, and it answers your words at the top which do not apply for those who are "in Meshiah", (or "in Christ"). There is no fear of "the curse of the Law" when one is truly in Meshiah and walking in the Torah as it is taught by the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts. The only way it remains a curse is if one thinks that Torah observance will save them, (being of those who are of the works of the law and not understanding the Gospel). If you think that about me then you are deceived and spreading disinformation.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
James says it's required not me. Faith is completed by works. Those aren't my words. If faith Alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You’re stuck on James. News flash Jesus and Paul had a lot more to say than James and they taught against salvation by works
If James is all you have. In a Bible full of words. Your in serious trouble
