Paul's Gospel

[David Lamb]

Hananyah is Gabriel, Azaryah is Raphael, Mishael is Mikael.

Acts 9:15-20:KJV
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days [three years, Gal 1:17-19] with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

The six months in Arabia immersing in the Word are left out in this passage, for as you may see, it skips straight to the three years Paul spent preaching at Damascus. The food he had received immediately follows his immersion, which was therefore due to the immersing into the Word which he had done in Arabia, as admonished by Hananyah.

Now therefore, the scales falling from his blind eyes: where else is essentially the same story also found? The author is pointing you to a writing you yourself just mentioned: the book of Tobit.

Zechariah 9:1 Brenton Septuagint Translation
1 The burden of the word of the Lord, in the land of Sedrach, [Shadrak, cf. Dan 1:7] and his sacrifice [minhah-offering] shall be in Damascus; for the Lord looks upon men, and upon all the tribes of Israel.

Daniel 3:30 Brenton Septuagint Translation
29 Wherefore I publish a decree: Every people, tribe, or language, that shall speak reproachfully against the God of Sedrach, Misach, and Abdenago shall be destroyed, and their houses shall be plundered: because there is no other God who shall be able to deliver thus.
30 Then the king promoted Sedrach, Misach, and Abdenago, in the province of Babylon, and advanced them, and gave them authority to rule over all the Jews who were in his kingdom.

But none of that answers my point, which was about you claiming that Luke was Raphael. You have pointed me instead to Paul's conversion, and seem to claim that the Ananias whom God sent to him was in fact an angel mentioned in the Apocrypha. You also claim that Gabriel is Hananyah. You say that the author of Acts is pointing me to Tobit. Why should Luke do such a thing?

 

[dak]

But none of that answers my point, which was about you claiming that Luke was Raphael. You have pointed me instead to Paul's conversion, and seem to claim that the Ananias whom God sent to him was in fact an angel mentioned in the Apocrypha. You also claim that Gabriel is Hananyah. You say that the author of Acts is pointing me to Tobit. Why should Luke do such a thing?

It's just that you and I are of completely different mindsets and I actually do believe all that is in your canon.

Hebrews 13:2 ASV
2 Forget not to show love unto strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Where does Luke enter the narrative in Acts? The same place as Titon of Makkedon, the man from Paul's night vision, and he also does not appear to be a human being.

Acts 16:6-10 ASV
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
7 and when they were come over against Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia; and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not;
8 and passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: There was a man of Macedonia standing, beseeching him, and saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And when he had seen the vision, straightway we sought to go forth into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

The "we" highlighted in verse ten is assumed by most to be the author, (a.k.a. Luke), and he enters the narrative immediately following Paul's night vision wherein Titus was calling him into Macedonia to, ehem, "help us".

2 Corinthians 2:12-14 ASV
12 Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ, and when a door was opened unto me in the Lord,
13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia.
14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place.

Is it not plain as day that Paul is telling us that Titus is the man from his vision at Troas?

2 Corinthians 7:5-7 ASV
5 For even when we were come into Macedonia our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
6 Nevertheless he that comforteth the lowly, even God, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
7 and not by his coming only, but also by the comfort wherewith he was comforted in you, while he told us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced yet more.

...comforted us by the παρουσια of Titus...

2 Corinthians 7:13-15 ASV
13 Therefore we have been comforted: and in our comfort we joyed the more exceedingly for the joy of Titus, because his spirit hath been refreshed by you all.
14 For if in anything I have gloried to him on your behalf, I was not put to shame; but as we spake all things to you in truth, so our glorying also which I made before Titus was found to be truth.
15 And his affection is more abundantly toward you, while he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Ah yes, the comfort of Titus...

2 Corinthians 8:1-6 ASV
1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God which hath been given in the churches of Macedonia;
2 how that in much proof of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3 For according to their power, I bear witness, yea and beyond their power, they gave of their own accord,
4 beseeching us with much entreaty in regard of this grace and the fellowship in the ministering to the saints:
5 and this, not as we had hoped, but first they gave their own selves to the Lord, and to us through the will of God.
6 Insomuch that we exhorted Titus, that as he had made a beginning before, so he would also complete in you this grace also.

Ah yes, the grace of Titus...

2 Corinthians 8:23-24 ASV
23 Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward; or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ.
24 Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf.

Who is really in a fantasy world here?
Is it me, for believing Paul and what is written in your canon?
Walk according to the Spirit or you will die, (Rom 8:1-9).

 

[David Lamb]

It's just that you and I are of completely different mindsets and I actually do believe all that is in your canon.

Hebrews 13:2 ASV
2 Forget not to show love unto strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Where does Luke enter the narrative in Acts? The same place as Titon of Makkedon, the man from Paul's night vision, and he also does not appear to be a human being.

Acts 16:6-10 ASV
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
7 and when they were come over against Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia; and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not;
8 and passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: There was a man of Macedonia standing, beseeching him, and saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And when he had seen the vision, straightway we sought to go forth into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

The "we" highlighted in verse ten is assumed by most to be the author, (a.k.a. Luke), and he enters the narrative immediately following Paul's night vision wherein Titus was calling him into Macedonia to, ehem, "help us".

2 Corinthians 2:12-14 ASV
12 Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ, and when a door was opened unto me in the Lord,
13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia.
14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place.

Is it not plain as day that Paul is telling us that Titus is the man from his vision at Troas? View attachment 85856

2 Corinthians 7:5-7 ASV
5 For even when we were come into Macedonia our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
6 Nevertheless he that comforteth the lowly, even God, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
7 and not by his coming only, but also by the comfort wherewith he was comforted in you, while he told us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced yet more.

...comforted us by the παρουσια of Titus... View attachment 85856

2 Corinthians 7:13-15 ASV
13 Therefore we have been comforted: and in our comfort we joyed the more exceedingly for the joy of Titus, because his spirit hath been refreshed by you all.
14 For if in anything I have gloried to him on your behalf, I was not put to shame; but as we spake all things to you in truth, so our glorying also which I made before Titus was found to be truth.
15 And his affection is more abundantly toward you, while he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Ah yes, the comfort of Titus... View attachment 85856

2 Corinthians 8:1-6 ASV
1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God which hath been given in the churches of Macedonia;
2 how that in much proof of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3 For according to their power, I bear witness, yea and beyond their power, they gave of their own accord,
4 beseeching us with much entreaty in regard of this grace and the fellowship in the ministering to the saints:
5 and this, not as we had hoped, but first they gave their own selves to the Lord, and to us through the will of God.
6 Insomuch that we exhorted Titus, that as he had made a beginning before, so he would also complete in you this grace also.

Ah yes, the grace of Titus... View attachment 85856

2 Corinthians 8:23-24 ASV
23 Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward; or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ.
24 Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf.

Who is really in a fantasy world here?
Is it me, for believing Paul and what is written in your canon?
Walk according to the Spirit or you will die, (Rom 8:1-9).

This is getting more and more complex. Now you are giving an name to the man of Paul's vision, Titon of Makkedon. Where is he called that? Not in Acts 16 - that just a man from Macedonia. Nor do I see anything "plain" in 2 Corinthians that says that the man in Paul's vision was Titus. And what do you mean by my canon?

 

[dak]

This is getting more and more complex. Now you are giving an name to the man of Paul's vision, Titon of Makkedon. Where is he called that? Not in Acts 16 - that just a man from Macedonia.

Titon is the case ending in 2Cor 2:13.
Makkedon or Makedon is Macedon, (it is not a c but kappa in the Greek).

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 ουκ εσχηκα ανεσιν τω πνευματι μου τω μη ευρειν με τιτον τον αδελφον μου αλλα αποταξαμενος αυτοις εξηλθον εις μακεδονιαν

Nor do I see anything "plain" in 2 Corinthians that says that the man in Paul's vision was Titus.

Then apparently you do not perceive how 2Cor 2:12-13 expounds Acts 16:6-10. That's unfortunate: study with prayer, and an open heart, and be willing to forfeit your indoctrination and biases wherever and whenever those things will not allow you to see, comprehend, and believe what the scripture logos and logic presents on its own terms and within its own terms and terminology. Faith is never meant to be devoid of logic in the scriptures: scripture faith is evidence based.

And what do you mean by my canon?

Yours is merely derived from the RCC while mine contains quite a bit more than that, (in this case Tobit, but that isn't all).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is getting more and more complex. Now you are giving an name to the man of Paul's vision, Titon of Makkedon. Where is he called that? Not in Acts 16 - that just a man from Macedonia. Nor do I see anything "plain" in 2 Corinthians that says that the man in Paul's vision was Titus. And what do you mean by my canon?

You have great patience my friend!!

 

[David Lamb]

Titon is the case ending in 2Cor 2:13.
Makkedon or Makedon is Macedon, (it is not a c but kappa in the Greek).

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 ουκ εσχηκα ανεσιν τω πνευματι μου τω μη ευρειν με τιτον τον αδελφον μου αλλα αποταξαμενος αυτοις εξηλθον εις μακεδονιαν

OK so you meant "Titus" and "Macedonia." That doesn't explain why you believe that the man in Paul's vision was Titus.

Then apparently you do not perceive how 2Cor 2:12-13 expounds Acts 16:6-10. That's unfortunate: study with prayer, and an open heart, and be willing to forfeit your indoctrination and biases wherever and whenever those things will not allow you to see, comprehend, and believe what the scripture logos and logic presents on its own terms and within its own terms and terminology. Faith is never meant to be devoid of logic in the scriptures: scripture faith is evidence based.



Yours is merely derived from the RCC while mine contains quite a bit more than that, (in this case Tobit, but that isn't all).

If the canon I used was "derived from the RCC", it would contain the books of the Apocrypha, so it would include Tobit. Mine contains the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 books of the New Testament. So I don't understand why you think that mine is "derived from the RCC".

 

[dak]

If the canon I used was "derived from the RCC", it would contain the books of the Apocrypha, so it would include Tobit. Mine contains the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 books of the New Testament. So I don't understand why you think that mine is "derived from the RCC".

Okay, yes, there are technicalities that aren't worth debating here, imo. The difference depends on what certain churches mean by deuterocanonical, (which technically means a second canon). Why differentiate between canonical and deuterocanonical if both are considered canonical? This is aside from "apocryphal", which does generally mean non-canonical, especially in the west, (Protestant, etc.).

Apocrypha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[David Lamb]

Okay, yes, there are technicalities that aren't worth debating here, imo. The difference depends on what certain churches mean by deuterocanonical, (which technically means a second canon). Why differentiate between canonical and deuterocanonical if both are considered canonical? This is aside from "apocryphal", which does generally mean non-canonical, especially in the west, (Protestant, etc.).

Apocrypha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes I agree that I, like most Protestants, say that the Apocrypha is non-canonical.

 

[dak]

Yes I agree that I, like most Protestants, say that the Apocrypha is non-canonical.

Okay, but what I originally said was that your canon is derived from the RCC canon. Derived does not mean identical, and the statement is true, for every book in your canon is also in the RCC canon: it's just that Protestants removed the books called in some cases the apocrypha, (like in the original 1611 KJV), and in other cases the deuterocanonical O/T books, (like the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Church of the East, (but those are not entirely the exact same books as found in the KJV Apocrypha)). Many times in various forums have I seen Catholics lodging this same complaint against Protestants, for example, "You got your canon from us!", blah, blah, blah. That's because it is true even though Protestants have left out the apocryphal and deuterocanonical books.

APOCRYPHA KJV (King James Version)

The Apocrypha from the King James Bible (KJV) — background, history, and links to all apocryphal books.

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

 

[David Lamb]

Okay, but what I originally said was that your canon is derived from the RCC canon. Derived does not mean identical, and the statement is true, for every book in your canon is also in the RCC canon: it's just that Protestants removed the books called in some cases the apocrypha, (like in the original 1611 KJV), and in other cases the deuterocanonical O/T books, (like the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Church of the East, (but those are not entirely the exact same books as found in the KJV Apocrypha)). Many times in various forums have I seen Catholics lodging this same complaint against Protestants, for example, "You got your canon from us!", blah, blah, blah. That's because it is true even though Protestants have left out the apocryphal and deuterocanonical books.

APOCRYPHA KJV (King James Version)

The Apocrypha from the King James Bible (KJV) — background, history, and links to all apocryphal books.

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

I would just briefly say that I don't agree that the Roman Catholic Church initiated the canon of Scripture. I won't reply at any length for fear of taking the thread off-topic.