Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

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BreadOfLife

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In the minds of the majority of Catholic people that I have met in my ministry, they didn’t know the difference between a catechism and a Bible. Whose fault is it that they thought that? And what possible reason could they have for thinking that the Bible is called a catechism?
So, the majority of Catholics that you’ve personally interviewed were ignorant.
There are JUST as many ignorant Protestants in MY experience.

In the end – this is THEIR fault and NOT the fault of their priest/pastor.
Too many people don’t prioritize their faith over their personal life or career.

No, but it did give me a framework so that I could detect religious falsehood when I heard it.
Those without knowledge can be so easily led. The RCC were intent on maintaining ignorance whilst demanding compliance and strict obedience to their clergy, especially the pope, who had no place in the Christianity set up by Jesus. After all, they had the best deterrent...a hell of eternal torment if they dared to question.
Absolute historical ignorance and anti-Catholic nonsense . . .

The Scriptures have been OPENLY taught since the very beginning. The main difference between then and now – as I have already educated you – is that hand-copied Bibles were almost impossible to come by. Not to mention the fact that MOST people were functionally illiterate anyway. Because of this - evangelization for the first 1500 years of the Church was almost exclusively done ORALLY.

That doesn’t surprise me. It was predicted to be this way in a world ruled by the devil. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
Actually – it’s more like:

John 8:32

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

As opposed to Gnostic beliefs that YOU cling to - like the idea that Jesus is NOT God . . .

Refusal to accept Sola Scriptura is the all encompassing heresy....the true abomination.....bringing doubt about the value of Scripture in their teachings, your church was able to adopt all manner of unscriptural beliefs and practices and pass them off as “Christian”. Any wonder that they didn’t need Scripture.
If Jesus and his apostles used God’s word as their authority, and quoted from the Scriptures often, why wouldn’t we? Why would anyone call referring to God’s word alone as an “abomination”!?

Jesus himself said...
John 17:14-17....
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I do ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. “Consecrate them in the truth.Your word is truth. (NCB)

God’s word is all we need.....all else comes from deceitful men. There is no truth in the counterfeit Christianity sown by the devil. Jesus warned that it was coming and people can pretend that it didn’t, but history shows us that corruption is everywhere in Christendom’s teachings.....a divided mess who fail to represent what Jesus started....any wonderhe will say....”I never knew you!”
First of all –Jesus and the Apostles DID quote Scripture as the Word of God.
They ALSO quoted Oral Tradition as the Word of God:

Matt. 2:23
- the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres. Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with Satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.


NONE of the verses you provided support the false Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura.
The onus is now on YOU to show me where the Bible states that “the Word of God” includes ONLY that which was written down.
Chapter and Verse, please . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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We don’t forget the sacrifice either, but we commemorate it on the right date and in the way that Jesus did.
After the Passover meal was eaten, after sundown, the Passover was held. Christians commemorate the memorial of Christ’s death in a similar way, not weekly or daily, but annually as the Jews held their Passover and as Jesus himself did. It is not to be partaken of lightly, or by those who have not brought their lives into harmony with God’s commands.

1 Cor 11:27-29...
“Therefore, anyone who eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner is guilty of an offense against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone should examine himself about eating the bread and drinking from the cup. For a person who eats and drinks without discerning the body of the Lord is eating and drinking judgment on himself.” (NCB)
It’s a serious business....
We Catholics don’t wait for a certain “date” in order to proclaim Christ crucified. We proclaim his death ALWAYS – just as we proclaim His Resurrection.

1 Cor. 11:26

For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

YOUR
difficulty with this is the “stumbling block” that Paul spoke of in
(1 Cor. 1:23) . . .
The Christians did not worship Jesus....they reserved worship for his Father, who alone is God. (1 Cor 8:5-6) They paid the son of God his due honor in obeisance. Something that can be done to humans, but worship belongs only to God.
WRONG:

Matt. 14:23

Then those who were in the boat
worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matt. 28:9

Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and
worshiped him.

Matt. 28:17
When they saw him,
they worshiped him; but some doubted.

John 20:28

Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God!”
We do not reject the crucifixion, but concentrate on Jesus’ death, not the instrument used to execute him.....and certainly not to make an idol of it. (Exodus 20:4-5)
An ”Idol” is something other than God that is worshipped as a god.
This is strictly prohibited by Catholic teaching.

We are asked to memorialise his death, not the stake on which he was impaled....and certainly not with a corpse on it.
Soooo, you should have just as much disdain for grave markers, and the fact that people kneel and lay flowers before them.

Are you against those? Is this
“idolatry”?
Yes, the Catholic Church and historians can claim a lot of things, but adhering to the teaching of Jesus Christ isn’t one of them. An apostasy was foretold and it took place when Jesus said it would...the apostles knew that after they left, everything would go belly up. (Acts 20:28-30) Which was the only church? You’ve already told me.

Paul specifically mentioned certain apostates, such as Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus....already causing trouble long before John’s Revelation recorded at end of the first century.
Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith, lack of endurance in the face of persecution, abandonment of right moral standards, ( 2 Peter 2:15-22) the heeding of the “counterfeit words” of false teachers and “misleading inspired utterances”, (2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 Tim 4:1-3; 2 Tim 2:16-19) and trying “to be declared righteous by means of law”. (Gal 5:2-4)
They copied the Pharisees in many ways...their priestly robes, their grand temple like cathedrals, and their departure from the faith that God had given them.
I’ll add a couple more –
They forbid marriage and forbid certain foods

Paul
was describing the Gnostic Heretics who did ALL of these things.
- They forbade certain foods as “unclean”
- They forbade marriage for anyone.
- They believed that ALL matter is evil.
- They believed that Christ only appeared to be human.

- They believed that that Christ only appeared to die.
- Like YOU - they believed that Christ was not truly God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

You’re barking up the WRONG tree . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Let’s try this again......
I said.....”The offence was saying something spiritual and it being taken literally, which was breaking God’s law. That is what was offensive.”
The Jews who heard him say that ‘drinking his blood and eating his flesh’ was the only way to everlasting life, shocked them....it disgusted them.....They took it literally, when Jesus meant it spiritually.


Did Jesus tell them to break God’s Law? They thought so. He waited for a response from his disciples and then told them what he said was “spirit and life”...so there is no literal ‘eating of Jesus flesh and drinking his blood’....taken literally, it was abhorrent back then, and it still is to those who have not been drawn into false Christianity.
Only Catholic indoctrination could make this concept acceptable to anyone with a modicum of human sensibilities in any civilised nation.
I cannot comprehend how this is acceptable to you.
This make NO sense at ALL from an NT point of view.

As shocking and disturbing as violating that particular Law – being told to ignore all of the Dietary and Ceremonial Laws later on in Acts was just as disturbing. Where was the mass exodus of followers then???

In John 6, the crowd heard what Jesus said – and they were SO shocked that they abandoned Him. If He was just speaking metaphorically - why didn’t He explain Himself as He did on so many other occasions??

That is true, but God’s prohibition on consuming blood was restated in three different eras. The first mention was to Noah when God gave him permission to eat animal flesh....and there were no prohibited meats in his statement.
Gen 9:3-4....
“Whatever moves and has life will be used for your food. I give you all these things, just as I have already given you every green plant. Only do not eat flesh along with its life, that is, with its blood.” (NCB)
Humans went from being vegetarians to carnivores. And a fear of man was instilled in them for the first time.

The second era was when the nation of Israel was given God’s Laws....
Lev 17:10-12...
“Whoever from the house of Israel or from among the aliens living in your midst eats anything with blood, I will set my face against that person and he shall be cut off from among his people. The life of all flesh is found in its blood. I have given it to you to make atonement for your life upon the altar. Blood is to make atonement for one’s life.’ Therefore, I told the children of Israel, ‘No one of you shall eat blood, nor shall the alien living among you eat blood.’” (NCB)

And the third time, it was given to Christians...
Acts 15:28-29...
“It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and also our decision not to lay any further burden upon you beyond these essentials: you are to abstain from food that has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of animals that have been strangled, and from unchastity. If you avoid these, you will be doing what is right.” (NCB)


Those “essentials” were for all Christians, but especially the gentile believers who may have regularly consumed blood in their past....but now even eating a strangled animals (ones that were not properly bled) was prohibited.
Consumption of blood, murder and immorality were always stressed as prohibited under God’s law for his worshippers, and all incurred the death penalty.
ONE more time:

The prohibition against consuming the blood of an animal was that the blood was the LIFE of the animal.

We don’t want to take the life of an animal into ourselves.
We DO want to take the Life of Jesus into ourselves.

Simple as that . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Jesus shared the emblems of bread and wine while he was still alive, before his death.

Symbolic!
Please show me where the Bible states:
“This is an emblem of my body.”
“This is a symbol of my blood.”

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

You see, in MY Bible, Jesus says:
This IS my body

This IS my blood
(Matt. 26:26–28, Mark 14:22–24, Luke 22:19–20, 1 Cor. 11:23–25)
 

Hiddenthings

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Please show me where the Bible states:
“This is an emblem of my body.”
“This is a symbol of my blood.”

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

You see, in MY Bible, Jesus says:
This IS my body

This IS my blood
(Matt. 26:26–28, Mark 14:22–24, Luke 22:19–20, 1 Cor. 11:23–25)
There is an abundance of passages, similar to this one, where the verb "is" is used for "to mean, to symbolize"; e.g.,

"I am the door." (John 10:7).
"I am the true vine." (John 15:1).
"That Rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4).
"The seven heads are seven mountains." (Rev. 17:9)

If you want Jesus to be a literal door go for it but your crazy nonsense must stop!
 

BreadOfLife

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There is an abundance of passages, similar to this one, where the verb "is" is used for "to mean, to symbolize"; e.g.,

"I am the door." (John 10:7).
"I am the true vine." (John 15:1).
"That Rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4).
"The seven heads are seven mountains." (Rev. 17:9)

If you want Jesus to be a literal door go for it but your crazy nonsense must stop!
This argument falls FLAT with the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 . . .

Jesus
hammers the point over and over:

“Unless you EAT my flesh and DRINK my blood”
“My flesh is TRUE FOOD and my blood is TRUE DINK”

John even goes so far as to repeatedly use the word “Trogon” – the way an animal rips apart and gnaws on his food instead of “Phagon” – the way a human eats.

We also have Paul’s narrative on the Last Supper in 1 Cor. 11:23-25 places such a severe warning on those who don’t take this seriously that they may get sick and even DIE (1 Cor. 11:30).

The metaphorical examples YOU gave never go this far.
Jesus meant what He said in John 6 and at the Last Supper.
 

Aunty Jane

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So, the majority of Catholics that you’ve personally interviewed were ignorant.
There are JUST as many ignorant Protestants in MY experience.
I couldn’t agree more.....ignorance is very widespread in all the churches, especially in this day and age when ignorance is inexcusable. The Bible is available in so many languages and information is now instantly there at the click of a button. So these days when I speak to people at their doors they are wondering why the church is so redundant....why it has no answers to life’s most distressing problems I can tell them the truthful answers form the Bible itself. Starting in Genesis which tells us the why about all our troubles, and ending in Revelation that tells us how it all gets fixed in the end....and it doesn’t require a single Catholic doctrine to explain it. Those just muddy the waters.

When religion becomes mindless ritual instead of life giving knowledge, the failure is clearly with the church.
Christianity was not ritualistic like Judaism was. It had no earthly priests or grand ostentatious buildings, housing statues that are given reverence and pretending that it isn’t idolatry. There was no holy water or infant baptism, no heaven or hell as opposite destinations, no adoration of Mary or prayers to the saints.
I don’t think you have any idea how many things were introduced by the church that have no Scriptural basis at all....excused in the “abomination of sola scriptura”.

The early Christians departed from the trappings of Judaism and conducted their worship in modest surroundings. Their priesthood was to be served in heaven, not on earth. (Rev 20:6) And there was no longer a need for a temple because sacrifices were no longer required after Christ offered his life once and for all time. The “types and shadows” of the old Jewish system, were replaced by the heavenly realities.

The RCC lost that memo somewhere, and turned Christianity into a sham form of Judaism, copying its priesthood, its distinctive garb, rituals and substitute temples.
In the end – this is THEIR fault and NOT the fault of their priest/pastor.
Too many people don’t prioritize their faith over their personal life or career.
If the priest/pastor was doing his job, he would not be alone in his tending of the flock.....a body of older men were to take the lead in the first century congregations. Nothing was left to one individual. They were spiritually qualified men who had already earned the trust of their fellow Christians. This body of elders were to know their flock and personally see to it that all in the congregation were spiritually well fed, helped and assisted, as well as living a clean, moral life.
Those who prioritise their lifestyle or career over their Christianity have already lost the support of the one they purport to worship. He does not take second place to anything or anyone.

Do those priests and pastors know who are taking the bread and wine at their church services? Have they warned them that taking it under false pretences will merit God’s adverse judgment?
Do they know that repeating phrases like the “Our Father” or the “Hail Mary” have no Scriptural precedent?
Even Jesus, before he gave the Lord’s Prayer, said not to repeat the same things over and over again because God is not an unintelligent moron who accepts mindless repetition as worship?
Absolute historical ignorance and anti-Catholic nonsense . . .

The Scriptures have been OPENLY taught since the very beginning. The main difference between then and now – as I have already educated you – is that hand-copied Bibles were almost impossible to come by. Not to mention the fact that MOST people were functionally illiterate anyway. Because of this - evangelization for the first 1500 years of the Church was almost exclusively done ORALLY.
And those oral traditions you mentioned, made it into Scripture by quotation in the NT. Nothing that was written after the last apostle John penned his final contribution, can be accepted as Scripture...or as a substitute for it. God’s word is his alone. Nothing needs to be added. It tells us all we need to know about the past, the present, and a thousand years into the future.

Your church has no authority over Scripture just because God used them to accomplish his will at a time when “the church” was really the only one with any power over what people believed. The Reformation broke the power of the Roman church, but it did little to unite the Christians who are now more divided than they have ever been. The one thing it did accomplish was to bring the Bible back into the hands of the common people, after keeping them in ignorance for centuries. Are you denying that the church executed people for even possessing a Bible? Burning them at the stake for having the audacity to want to read it for themselves? Is history wrong about that?

If the church hierarchy was functionally literate, why did they not teach people to read and write? Jewish households taught their children many life skills including the ability to read and write. Many of the apostles were humble fishermen, but they wrote their contributions to Scripture in great detail....Peter and John especially.

Paul was the exception because he was an educated Pharisee, but he was chosen for a special assignment as “an apostle to the nations”.

You have to run out of excuses sooner or later.
 

Hiddenthings

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This argument falls FLAT with the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 . . .

Jesus
hammers the point over and over:

“Unless you EAT my flesh and DRINK my blood”
“My flesh is TRUE FOOD and my blood is TRUE DINK”

John even goes so far as to repeatedly use the word “Trogon” – the way an animal rips apart and gnaws on his food instead of “Phagon” – the way a human eats.

We also have Paul’s narrative on the Last Supper in 1 Cor. 11:23-25 places such a severe warning on those who don’t take this seriously that they may get sick and even DIE (1 Cor. 11:30).

The metaphorical examples YOU gave never go this far.
Jesus meant what He said in John 6 and at the Last Supper.
Your funny - you think Jesus is a literal door.

Some cannot discern his spirit because they have another spirit in the.
 

BreadOfLife

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I couldn’t agree more.....ignorance is very widespread in all the churches, especially in this day and age when ignorance is inexcusable. The Bible is available in so many languages and information is now instantly there at the click of a button. So these days when I speak to people at their doors they are wondering why the church is so redundant....why it has no answers to life’s most distressing problems I can tell them the truthful answers form the Bible itself. Starting in Genesis which tells us the why about all our troubles, and ending in Revelation that tells us how it all gets fixed in the end....and it doesn’t require a single Catholic doctrine to explain it. Those just muddy the waters.
No - what muddies the waters are all of the mindless, individual interpretations of Scripture. THIS is why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to have been “led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture warns about this:
2 Pet. 1:20

Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.


How do you know that YOU have the “correct” interpretation?

When religion becomes mindless ritual instead of life giving knowledge, the failure is clearly with the church.
Christianity was not ritualistic like Judaism was. It had no earthly priests or grand ostentatious buildings, housing statues that are given reverence and pretending that it isn’t idolatry. There was no holy water or infant baptism, no heaven or hell as opposite destinations, no adoration of Mary or prayers to the saints.
The Church doesn’t practice “mindless” ritual – NOR was the Early Church “ritual-Free”. There is not a culture in the history of the world that is/was non-ritual. Protestants also engage in rituals . . .

Matrimony is a ritual.
Baptism is a ritual.
Communion is a ritual.
Weekly observance (Lord’s Day) is a ritual
Tithing
is a ritual
Funerals
are rituals
Group prayer
is a ritual
Songs of worship
is a ritual
Worship services
are rituals.
Infant Dedications are rituals.

I don’t think you have any idea how many things were introduced by the church that have no Scriptural basis at all....excused in the “abomination of sola scriptura”.

The early Christians departed from the trappings of Judaism and conducted their worship in modest surroundings. Their priesthood was to be served in heaven, not on earth. (Rev 20:6) And there was no longer a need for a temple because sacrifices were no longer required after Christ offered his life once and for all time. The “types and shadows” of the old Jewish system, were replaced by the heavenly realities.

The RCC lost that memo somewhere, and turned Christianity into a sham form of Judaism, copying its priesthood, its distinctive garb, rituals and substitute temples.
In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest (Lev. 16, Haggai 1:12-14 S).
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood (Lev. 16).
- The rest of the people were a General priesthood of believers (Exod. 19:6).

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
-
The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
-
The General priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.
In Rom 15:15-16, Paul uses the word “Hierurgeo”, which is the verb form of the Greek “Hierus” (priests) – the SAME word used for “priest” throughout the NT.

Rom 15:15-16:

But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


What the following verses are describing is the definition of the duties of the Ministerial Priesthood:

(John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-20, 2 Cor. 2:10, James 5:14-15)
If the priest/pastor was doing his job, he would not be alone in his tending of the flock.....a body of older men were to take the lead in the first century congregations. Nothing was left to one individual.
This is an ignorant assumption.

I don’t know of a SINGLE parish where the Pastor leads “Alone”. Every parish has deacons and ministry leaders, assist with pastoring the congregation. I, myself am the leader of the Eucharistic Ministry.

Do those priests and pastors know who are taking the bread and wine at their church services? Have they warned them that taking it under false pretences will merit God’s adverse judgment?
If you knew anything about Catholic teaching – you would know that Catholics are advised to confess their sins to the Church prior to receiving our Lord in the Eucharist (Matt. 16:19; 18:15-18, John 20:21-23) Do they know that repeating phrases like the
Do they know that repeating phrases like the “Our Father” or the “Hail Mary” have no Scriptural precedent?
Our Father (Matt. 6:9-13)
Hail Mary (Luke 1:28)
 

BreadOfLife

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continued . . .

Even Jesus, before he gave the Lord’s Prayer, said not to repeat the same things over and over again because God is not an unintelligent moron who accepts mindless repetition as worship?
That is a LIE. Jesus NEVER said this.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Jesus
said:
Matt. 6:7

“And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.”

Does this mean that God hates repetitious prayers?

in Matt. 6:7, Jesus was talking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods – MOT the sincere prayers of the faithful. We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances

Repeated prayers from the FAITHFUL are pleasing to God:

In Matt. 26:44, Christ prayed the EXACT same prayer - THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:7, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner. This was pleasing to God.

We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the EXACT same prayer - day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

Psalm 136
goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the EXACT same prayer, “God's love endures forever”.

In Dan. 3:56-88 we read the EXACT same prayer for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.”

So much for YOUR disapproval of repetitious prayer . . .

And those oral traditions you mentioned, made it into Scripture by quotation in the NT. Nothing that was written after the last apostle John penned his final contribution, can be accepted as Scripture...or as a substitute for it. God’s word is his alone. Nothing needs to be added. It tells us all we need to know about the past, the present, and a thousand years into the future.
That is absolutely FALSE.

First of all – the Tradition of the Canon of Scripture itself is one that is NOT in Scripture. Secondly, John tells us that Jesus did and said so many things AFTER His Resurrection that could NOT be written down (John 2125).

Finally – YOU need to show me where the Bible says that ALL of God ‘Word is written down in the Bible (Sola Scriptura).
Now, for the THIRD time: Chapter and Verse, please . . .

Your church has no authority over Scripture just because God used them to accomplish his will at a time when “the church” was really the only one with any power over what people believed. The Reformation broke the power of the Roman church, but it did little to unite the Christians who are now more divided than they have ever been. The one thing it did accomplish was to bring the Bible back into the hands of the common people, after keeping them in ignorance for centuries. Are you denying that the church executed people for even possessing a Bible? Burning them at the stake for having the audacity to want to read it for themselves? Is history wrong about that?
This is an interesting statement – especially the underlined part.

If the Catholic Church is an evil counterfeit - WHY didn’t God use His “real” Church to declare the Canon?
OR -
could it just be that the Catholic Church is HIS Church and that’s why He spoke through it?

Nobody
was executed doe “possessing” a Bible. Any punishments stemming from owning a Bible were because of making unauthorized and perverted translations. Almost NOBOBY was able to “own” a Bible anyway, since they were
hand-writtem
If the church hierarchy was functionally literate, why did they not teach people to read and write? Jewish households taught their children many life skills including the ability to read and write. Many of the apostles were humble fishermen, but they wrote their contributions to Scripture in great detail....Peter and John especially.
Check your history . . .

The Church had done MORE than its share of academic teaching through the centuries. In Fact, the primary school system, the college and university system are ALL fruits of the Catholic Church.

As I already told you, however – hand-written Bibles and books were very expensive and hard to come by back them.

Your church has no authority over Scripture just because God used them to accomplish his will at a time when “the church” was really the only one with any power over what people believed. The Reformation broke the power of the Roman church, but it did little to unite the Christians who are now more divided than they have ever been. The one thing it did accomplish was to bring the Bible back into the hands of the common people, after keeping them in ignorance for centuries. Are you denying that the church executed people for even possessing a Bible? Burning them at the stake for having the audacity to want to read it for themselves? Is history wrong about that?
This is an interesting statement – especially the underlined part.

If the Catholic Church is an evil counterfeit - WHY didn’t God use His “real” Church to declare the Canon?
OR -
could it just be that the Catholic Church is HIS Church and that’s why He spoke through it?

Nobody
was executed doe “possessing” a Bible. Any punishments stemming from owning a Bible were because of making unauthorized and perverted translations. Almost NOBOBY was able to “own” a Bible anyway, since they were
hand-writtem
If the church hierarchy was functionally literate, why did they not teach people to read and write? Jewish households taught their children many life skills including the ability to read and write. Many of the apostles were humble fishermen, but they wrote their contributions to Scripture in great detail....Peter and John especially.
Check your history . . .

The Church had done MORE than its share of academic teaching through the centuries. In Fact, the primary school system, the college and university system are ALL fruits of the Catholic Church.

As I already told you, however – hand-written Bibles and books were very expensive and hard to come by back them.
 

BreadOfLife

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Your funny - you think Jesus is a literal door.

Some cannot discern his spirit because they have another spirit in the.
In post #268, I painstakingly went over the repeated words of Jesus in John 6 to illustrate that He was NOT speaking symbolically or metaphorically. I compared it to the symbolic verses YOU referenced (John 10:7, John 15:1, 1 Cor. 10:4, Rev. 17:9) to make mu case.

All YOU can do in reply is to come up with this empty and asinine response, which shows me that you can’t offer a valid argument. I accept your
concession . . .
 

St. SteVen

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In post #268, I painstakingly went over the repeated words of Jesus in John 6 to illustrate that He was NOT speaking symbolically or metaphorically. I compared it to the symbolic verses YOU referenced (John 10:7, John 15:1, 1 Cor. 10:4, Rev. 17:9) to make mu case.

All YOU can do in reply is to come up with this empty and asinine response, which shows me that you can’t offer a valid argument. I accept your
concession . . .
I understand that the Eucharist is viewed to be spiritual food.
Could you explain that to us from your perspective?

[
 

Taken

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Available to all? Did everyone everywhere throughout history have that opportunity? (nope)

All have had the Offering of Salvation.

God saves
Jesus Saves

Christ Jesus Saves those crucified WITH Him.

God Saves Those who died, who Believed in Him and His Word (not knowing his name: Jesus).

God Saves those who believe in Jesus, was sent by God.

If one IS IN His Hand, He is Saved.
Whose Hand?
God or Jesus.


John 10:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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I understand that the Eucharist is viewed to be spiritual food.
Could you explain that to us from your perspective?
I believe that’s exactly what I’ve been doing for the last several posts.
I’ve laid out a Biblical case for the Catholic position on the Eucharist.

We believe the Eucharist to be Christ - Body Blood, Soul and Divinity.
 

Hiddenthings

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In post #268, I painstakingly went over the repeated words of Jesus in John 6 to illustrate that He was NOT speaking symbolically or metaphorically. I compared it to the symbolic verses YOU referenced (John 10:7, John 15:1, 1 Cor. 10:4, Rev. 17:9) to make mu case.

All YOU can do in reply is to come up with this empty and asinine response, which shows me that you can’t offer a valid argument. I accept your
concession . . .
Is Jesus a literal door Bread?

Yes or No?
 

St. SteVen

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BreadOfLife said:
we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects

I never really understood why that is a problem. The church has been split since the beginning.
I think of them as specialists in different areas. Like specialist doctors.
Would you want a GP doing your brain surgery? Or someone who had splintered off into brain medicine?

[ cc: @Triumph1300
 

Hiddenthings

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BreadOfLife said:
we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects

I never really understood why that is a problem. The church has been split since the beginning.
I think of them as specialists in different areas. Like specialist doctors.
Would you want a GP doing your brain surgery? Or someone who had splintered off into brain medicine?

[ cc: @Triumph1300
I read this and my first thought was "would Jesus see it this way?" Maybe Eph 4:4-6... would suggest not.
 
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BreadOfLife

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BreadOfLife said:
we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects

I never really understood why that is a problem. The church has been split since the beginning.
I think of them as specialists in different areas. Like specialist doctors.
Would you want a GP doing your brain surgery? Or someone who had splintered off into brain medicine?

[ cc: @Triumph1300
The answer should be obvious. A medical specialist isn’t going to dispense with the truth in another area of medicine just because they know a lot about ONE thing. The rest of the truth cannot be tossed aside.

Besides – that kind of theological “specialist” would be in danger of knowing more and more about less and less - until they know everything about
nothing . . .