Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

Adam and Eve committed one sin, and died for it.
Paul was describing a person under the law in Romans 7

Yes.
Paul is not easy to grasp.
Reading him on the surface is very dangerous.
Some get The Law mixed up with good works.

 

[ProDeo]

You dont know that....

"""God hath made Jesus to be sin for us".......as "the ONE TIME ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".

You dont know that "where there is no LAW, there is no SIN, (Transgression)"", and the born again are "not under the LAW, but under Grace"".

You have not read Paul's teaching that says that God does not charge SIN.....to the born again.

I assume, that when you do sin, you ask for forgiveness ?

 

[Rich R]

What a silly remark.
Do you want to know so you could reach your limit and then come to a grinding halt?

God will not be mocked Rich R.

You misjudge my motive. It's an honest question. If we can loose salvation due to sinning, there must be some standard. I just wonder if anyone knows what it is.

 

[Pet]

Matthew 5:4

You misjudge my motive. It's an honest question. If we can loose salvation due to sinning, there must be some standard. I just wonder if anyone knows what it is.

There is a standard...Matthew 5:48 ;)

 

[GodsGrace]

You misjudge my motive. It's an honest question. If we can loose salvation due to sinning, there must be some standard. I just wonder if anyone knows what it is.

That question is always asked by those that believe our behavior has nothing to do with our salvation.

The standard is taught by John.

1 John chapters 1 and 2 describe what a believer is to do when they sin.
Forgiveness is asked....
Jesus is our mediator.

1 John chapter 3:9 describes what could cause loss of salvation...
PRACTICING sin...IOW....living in sin.

I say COULD cause loss of salvation because God will decide...
but some on these Forums make very dangerous statements that could mislead some.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 5:4

There is a standard...Matthew 5:48 ;)

LOL
That's quite a high standard !!
Think you could do it?

Are you one of those that believes they do not sin?

 

[Rich R]

Adam and Eve committed one sin, and died for it.
Paul was describing a person under the law in Romans 7

Rom 7:23-25,

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.​

​

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?​

​

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Looks to me like Paul was talking about himself and that he simultaneously followed the law of sin as well the law of God.

Thane there's this in 1 John (I think context is clear that he's talking to born again folks):

1John 1:8-10,

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

​

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

​

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

 

[ProDeo]

what do you mean by Jesus abolished the law? what about the ten commandments Jesus was teaching?

Which of the 10 commandments Jesus spoke about?

I remember the 2 most important ones.

 

[Rich R]

That question is always asked by those that believe our behavior has nothing to do with our salvation.

The standard is taught by John.

1 John chapters 1 and 2 describe what a believer is to do when they sin.
Forgiveness is asked....
Jesus is our mediator.

1 John chapter 3:9 describes what could cause loss of salvation...
PRACTICING sin...IOW....living in sin.

I say COULD cause salvation because God will decide...
but some on these Forums make very dangerous statements that could mislead some.

That's pretty nebulous. But but taking 1 John 3:9 at face value, it looks like once someone is born again they are incapable of sinning. Ergo, once born again always born again. Maybe there's more to it? I think there is.

 

[Pet]

 

[GodsGrace]

That's pretty nebulous. But but taking 1 John 3:9 at face value, it looks like once someone is born again they are incapable of sinning. Ergo, once born again always born again. Maybe there's more to it? I think there is.

Of course there's more.
But, Rich R, I'm really tired of debating what the NT teaches.

If you care to continue...
you could post a scripture that sounds like we're saved forever, no mater what.
Which is what OSAS teaches.

And I'll reply tomorrow morning to show you how it cannot be true.

 

[Rich R]

Matthew 5:4

There is a standard...Matthew 5:48 ;)

First of all, Jesus was not talking to Christians. There was no such thing before the day of Pentecost. Things took a radical change of direction on that day.

Secondly, the Greek word for "perfect" is "complete" and it'd be worth your while seeing how that word is used elsewhere. We ought to let the Bible define the words it uses. If we use our own definition of words, it's certain to lead to error.

But assuming you are right and "perfection" is the standard, do you mind me asking if you consider yourself perfect?

 

[Behold]

I assume, that when you do sin, you ask for forgiveness ?

You falsely assume that a Forgiven Christian isn't one.

So, you have no understanding of what Christ has accomplished on The Cross.

I have to tell you that lately this forum is just filled with self righteous people, posting posting posting, about their works and obedience, who have no understanding of God's Gift of Salvation.

Let me show you this..

A.) "Christ is the ONE TIME......ETERNAL.........Sacrifice for sin".

See that word "ETERNAL". ???......that means "ETERNAL".........,,, Now do you know the definination of the word Eternal? @ProDeo

Its means "FOREVER". "without end".

So, Jesus is God's Sin bearer, for ETERNITY...........LIterally = regarding any born again Christian.
This means the Christian is forgiven all their sin for "ETERNITY".....this means "FOREVER".

This is why Romans 4:8 and 2 Corin 5:19 tells the BELIEVER that God does not Charge them with SIN.

Reader....In FACT, if you have your sin, then Jesus has not died for it yet, and you are not a Christian.

 

[Muna]

First of all, Jesus was not talking to Christians. There was no such thing before the day of Pentecost. Things took a radical change of direction on that day.

Secondly, the Greek word for "perfect" is "complete" and it'd be worth your while seeing how that word is used elsewhere. We ought to let the Bible define the words it uses. If we use our own definition of words, it's certain to lead to error.

But assuming you are right and "perfection" is the standard, do you mind me asking if you consider yourself perfect?

I don't think that's either wise to ask or even answer

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me:
if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

A perfect man would not even answer that question

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,
and able also to bridle the whole body.

But if the one James describes is a perfect man, he said this man is able also to bridle the whole body

 

[Rich R]

Of course there's more.
But, Rich R, I'm really tired of debating what the NT teaches.

If you care to continue...
you could post a scripture that sounds like we're saved forever, no mater what.
Which is what OSAS teaches.

And I'll reply tomorrow morning to show you how it cannot be true.

I haven't said one way or the other. God's Grace quoted 1 John 3:9 as proof that we can sin too much and lose salvation. I just pointed out that it sure seems to say that anyone born again is incapable of sinning, "...he cannot sin, because he is born of God." I just don't see that as a good proof verse for loss of salvation due to too many sins.

As I intimated, I think there is more to it, but I don't want to get into it with someone who already knows. Kind of like you getting tired of the debate. I can relate and don't blame you one bit.

 

[Rich R]

I don't think that's either wise to ask or even answer

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me:
if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

A perfect man would not even answer that question

That's a good answer. You're right, it wouldn't be wise to answer it. You know within yourself and that's what matters.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,
and able also to bridle the whole body.

But if the one James describes is a perfect man, he said this man is able also to bridle the whole body

James uses the same Greek word, "telios" as Matthew 5:48. The people of that time and place would not understand it to mean the same thing as we in the modern West understand it to mean. I think it better to understand it as "mature." But i wouldn't expect you to just take my word for it. Look it up on any number of Bible websites. In any case, no matter how "mature" we become, we still fall far short of perfection in the flesh. Now spiritually, we are perfect.

Heb 10:14,

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.​

​

We are God's workmanship, and He knows to build something right.

Eph 2:10(a),

For we are his workmanship...​

I might also point out that, aside from Jesus, we all at some time or another offend others by our words. If that's true, then according to Matthew 5:48, when taken out of context, would sure seem to say none of us will make it.

 

[Muna]

That's a good answer. You're right, it wouldn't be wise to answer it. You know within yourself and that's what matters.

James uses the same Greek word, "telios" as Matthew 5:48. The people of that time and place would not understand it to mean the same thing as we in the modern West understand it to mean. I think it better to understand it as "mature." But i wouldn't expect you to just take my word for it. Look it up on any number of Bible websites. In any case, no matter how "mature" we become, we still fall far short of perfection in the flesh. Now spiritually, we are perfect.

Heb 10:14,

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.​

​

We are God's workmanship, and He knows to build something right.

Eph 2:10(a),

For we are his workmanship...​

I might also point out that, aside from Jesus, we all at some time or another offend others by our words. If that's true, then according to Matthew 5:48, when taken out of context, would sure seem to say none of us will make it.

Yes, I am aware of what the word perfect means, and it is the same word Jesus himself uses here

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect (teleios), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (teleios)

Since we are all to come unto the perfect man, or full age in Christ

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

James appears to tell us how to perceive the perfect man (and his ability) whereas in James 3:2 and in John speaks of the same in the present tense

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected (teleioo): hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected (teleioo) in us.

 

[Behold]

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect (teleios), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (teleios)

Reader,

Let me show you how to understand this verse... .Matt 5:48

The verse says........"""to be perfect, as God the Father is Perfect."""", and keep in mind that Jesus is not talking to Christians in the Verse.

So, that is a specfic perfection.....its GOD's own Perfection, and that means its God's own RIGHTEOUSNESS AS : THE Perfection.

Now, every one of us, before we were born again...is....""all have sinned, .. there is NONE RIGHTEOUS... no not even ONE""".

So how can a "non righteous" SINNER.......be as "perfect" as God Almight is "perfect", = as the verse requires.?????????

A.) You can't be...of yourself..by trying to do something or perform something for God......because you are a unrighteous SINNER, who is trying to be as PERFECT as God.
Its IMPOSSIBLE.

See that?
You can't do it.
Its can't be perfomed by you.

So then..... How is a person to be "PERFECT" like God?, as the Verse requires?

AA.) You receive by (FAITH in Christ) .. = the "Gift of Salvation" that is the "Gift of Righteoueness", and now you are "made Righteous"... having become "The RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, iN CHRIST"., as a "NEW CREATION". = BORN.. again.

See that?
Now you are MADE ""perfect"", By God, thought the Salvation that is found in Jesus's Sacrifice., because you are complete in Him...

Colossians 2:10 (KJV)
1 Corin 1:30 (KJV)

Welcome to : SALVATION.......Its a GIFT FROM GOD.

 

[PS95]

Ive never stated that we are to continue in sin.

What Paul teaches, is that "our old man of sin" is "crucified with Christ" and we are born again as a "new Creation" in Christ.
This is our Born Again Spirit........not your body or your mind.

Im going to go a bit deeper into what it means to be a CHRISTian......for the benefit of anyone who can follow along, and if you can't, then that is ok, because you've not been taught anything you needed to learn, once you were born again.
Just learn for now.... that you are not a sinner, you are a born again SAINT........and start to realize that God's Salvation that you received is FINISHED.
You dont complete it......you exist within it........ Reader......if you are born again and are not just water baptized and religious.

Now....Here is the reality, of becoming a "child of the Light"......having been "Translated from Darkness TO LIGH"> = BORN... AGAIN.

The Christian exists in the KOG, while still down here in a dying body.
Isnt' that AMAZING?
See, Our Born AGAIN Spirit is "in Christ", having been circumcized from our flesh... Colossians 2:11., and is become a "new Creation". "IN Christ".........as "ONE with God".. (Spiritual Union).

So, the born again, exist where there is NO LAW........as there is no LAW in the KOG.
THE LAW is down here on earth, and the born again are "not under The LAW, but under Grace".

This means that Jesus has all your sin, and you have His Righteousness, and that is your eternal life, and your SALVATiON.

You still don't get it.

 

[Muna]

Yes, I am aware of what the word perfect means, and it is the same word Jesus himself uses here

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect (teleios), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (teleios)

Since we are all to come unto the perfect man, or full age in Christ

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

James appears to tell us how to perceive the perfect man (and his ability) whereas in James 3:2 and in John speaks of the same in the present tense

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected (teleioo): hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected (teleioo) in us.

Bringing in Hebrews 5:14 also, perfect is full age

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect G5046 man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Perfect in the above (in practice) is the same word as those who are of full age in Heb 5:13

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, G5046 even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Same word Jesus uses here

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, G5046 even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. G5046

As He is so are we to be in this world here

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect G5048, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.