Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

You dont get to decide what's true. You're the last person I would listen to. Heretics like you have led people astray for centuries.

What do you think the other poster states that is wrong??
I haven't heard anything.

He's right.
There's so much twisting of scripture going on - it makes me dizzy.
And, it's getting worse.

Now, I believe you're Catholic and I agree that the CC is the original church and I respect
the EARLY Catholic church for keeping the faith pure, rejecting gnostic beliefs, and getting the NT writings
into one book.

But it went astary and we won't get into that.
The Reformation was needed but it created a mess too.
If we all would just plainly read the NT and not add anything to it,
we'd still have the original beliefs by the ECF's.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am off for a few days but will return late Friday.

Hope you enjoy your time off LoveYeshua.
Hope it's for a nice reason.
See you soon !

 

[GodsGrace]

Did I mention the dark glass we all look through (1 Cor 13:12)? That would explain the difference opinions.

It won't be until Jesus comes back until we know which one of us is correct (or maybe we're both wrong).

The dark glass just means that we don't see EVERYTHING.
But we SHOULD be able to see what GOD wants us to see.
What HE revealed to us.

So, yes, we should be reading the bible and we should be arriving at the same conclusions--mostly.

I say mostly because we don't THINK like people from 2 thousand years ago,,,
we don't speak like they did,,,
and some ideas might be a little difficult...but, golly gee, we don't even agree on the BASICS!

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Timothy 2:15 says something about studying the word of truth. But admittedly I've not seen who is qualified to do that. I assume you know who is qualified to study the scriptures? If you show me where the scriptures say I'm not qualified to study them, I'll close the book and put it back on the shelf

How about this....
How about going to a few churches and finding out they teach the same BASICS.
I did this...three of them.

I don't think it's a good idea to sit at home and make up a religion....
Christianity already exists....
maybe we could practice the Christianity that already exists.

WHO did Jesus send out to preach, teach and baptize?
ALL of His disciples?
No.
He sent out those that HE taught for His entire ministry.
Those that He knew would teach correctly.

So, yes, there are those QUALIFIED to study the bible and teach it.
BUT
of course,,,,it must match up with what the NT actually says...
so it's good to also read it on our own so we know we're not being mislead.
Since some teachings ARE misleading....

No. God did not make any covenant with the church of the Body of Christ.

So you believe the NC is only for the Jews or that we're not in it yet?

There are specific verses that mention an old covenant being made with Israel. I mentioned the verse in Jeremiah that says God will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah (Jer 31:31. There are many others like that). Jesus spoke about a new covenant a few times with his disciples who were Jewish (I trust you realize there were no Christians when Jesus was here). So while the scriptures do talk about a covenant with Israel, there is no mention of God making a covenant with Christians.

As I've stated....God made a Covenant with Adam that Paul claims affected ALL of humanity.
Then God DID make some Covenants that were meant only for Israel.

But, as I've said, Paul did say that we are grafted into the New Covenant.
Jesus DID say that ALL the nations are to be taught.

He also said that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

So if we're not under any Covenant,,,
what is our relationship to God?
The Covenants were agreements between God and man.
What agreement do we have with God?

And was Paul wrong?
Are we NOT grafted in?

Regarding Jeremiah 31.....God said He would make a new covenant with the laws written ON THE HEART,,,not on stone.
Just think....the entire NT speaks of how God's laws are a heart matter and not a law matter.
Interesting.
Seem like the teachings of Jesus,,,the testator of the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I wonder if we can even agree on what THAT means....

But it's confirmed in
Matthew 5:27

Peter thought scripture was clear in Acts 10. Paul thought scripture was clear in Acts 8. I think you and I are both fortunate that neither of those 2 guys (and many others) saw no need to pursue more perfect knowledge.

Not sure what you mean by this....

 

[ProDeo]

Well you should be interested since it was a man that has led you and millions upon millions of others into the heresies that you are so blissfully ignorant of but cling to as if your next breath depended on it. It's.mind boggling.

And yet the reformation, with its faults, was necessary.

I assume I don't have to list the fallacies of the RCC back then, and some still present today.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you be certain, beyond any doubt, what you will be doing tomorrow, next year, the next decade? How can you be certain that you will not do whatever you think it takes to lose your salvation? Be honest. If you are honest, I think you have to say you really can't guarantee that you will not do whatever you think causes you to lose your salvation. Does that not cause you to walk everyday in fear? It must be awful to live with the fear of losing your salvation because of something you might do in the future. I can't imagine how awful it must be.

The above is not for me...
but what a GIANT strawman.

The bible teaches that salvation can be forfieted.
Those that believe what the bible teaches do not walk around in fear.

They walk around loving God and obeying Him and knowing He loves them back.
Love casts out all fear.

Apparently some like to reject having to remain in Christ in order to be saved because maybe they don't enjoy
remaining in Christ.

You see, it works both ways Rich R.

So we should stop with the strawmen...it would be nice.

AND
You should never assume anything of anyone.
Unless they state they walk around in fear...
you should not assume it.
I don't know ANY christian that fears God.

But, you know what...a little fear might be good.
The devil prowls the earth,,,,seeking whom he could devour.
Not THAT is something to fear.

 

[GodsGrace]

And yet the reformation, with its faults, was necessary.

I assume I don't have to list the fallacies of the RCC back then, and some still present today.

My feelings exactly.
The CC roamed a long way from its beginnings.
Unfortunately.

So the Reformation was necessary.
But look at us now....
Uffa.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you do have some idea that it matters to whom something was said (at least that's what I got out of your comment here). Why then do you seemingly ignore to whom God was speaking in Jeremiah 31:31? It's just not right to appropriate something (a covenant in this case) meant for someone else as your own.

The entire bible has to be taken into consideration.
Have you looked into the Abrahamic Covenant again?
Does it mean nothing to you that Abraham even had his name changed because he would be the father of a multitude?
The translation is NATIONS.

It means nothing that Jesus comes from the line of David and the Davidic teachings and the fulfillment in Jesus?
(I mean the Davidic Covenant).

IOW, you believe that God meant for His revelation to be for the Jews ONLY?

You know, I'm really interested in Apologetics and Soteriology...
this is not a topic I'm going to care very much about
however
It is a teaching that is far from Christian theology.

Basically, what you're saying is that Jesus was Jewish,
The NC was only for the Jews,
and nothing Jesus said or did was for anyone else.

If this is what you want to believe...
so be it.

I would question though,,,,WHO you think Jesus is and WHY you would want to worship a being that does not want YOU.

But we should end it here.

 

[Rich R]

Jerm 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Repeated here in Hebrews

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews adds

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And here is Jesus the mediator of it

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Do the words, "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" mean anything to you.

How about the words, "is ready to vanish away?" Wouldn't the word "ready" mean it hasn't yet vanished?

Yes, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, but that doesn't say it's here now. "Ready to vanish away" means it hasn't yet vanished away. It's just ready to. When will that happen? Read Jeremiah 31 and see if it's description of the time the new covenant comes matches they way things are now.

 

[Rich R]

The dark glass just means that we don't see EVERYTHING.
But we SHOULD be able to see what GOD wants us to see.
What HE revealed to us.

So, yes, we should be reading the bible and we should be arriving at the same conclusions--mostly.

I say mostly because we don't THINK like people from 2 thousand years ago,,,
we don't speak like they did,,,
and some ideas might be a little difficult...but, golly gee, we don't even agree on the BASICS!

I would say the basics are that we were lost and now we're found. I trust we agree on that part. I'm sure we do.

 

[Muna]

Do the words, "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" mean anything to you.

How about the words, "is ready to vanish away?" Wouldn't the word "ready" mean it hasn't yet vanished?

Yes, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, but that doesn't say it's here now. "Ready to vanish away" means it hasn't yet vanished away. It's just ready to. When will that happen? Read Jeremiah 31 and see if it's description of the time the new covenant comes matches they way things are now.

Jesus Christ was only sent to the house of Israel and Hebrews is actually quoting that very place in Jeremiah

 

[amigo de christo]

You dont get to decide what's true. You're the last person I would listen to. Heretics like you have led people astray for centuries.

The RCC and tons of protestants have led this people astray .
Bible time .

 

[Rich R]

How about this....
How about going to a few churches and finding out they teach the same BASICS.
I did this...three of them.

I don't think it's a good idea to sit at home and make up a religion....
Christianity already exists....
maybe we could practice the Christianity that already exists.

Christianity is defined by the scriptures, not by the churches. But if it is by the churches, pray tell which of the 2,000+ denominations teaches the truth?

WHO did Jesus send out to preach, teach and baptize?
ALL of His disciples?
No.
He sent out those that HE taught for His entire ministry.
Those that He knew would teach correctly.

Well, references the 2,000+ different denominations I mentioned, somewhere along the line the teaching of Jesus went AWOL. Among those teachings is with whom God made covenants.

So, yes, there are those QUALIFIED to study the bible and teach it.
BUT
of course,,,,it must match up with what the NT actually says...
so it's good to also read it on our own so we know we're not being mislead.
Since some teachings ARE misleading....

So you believe the NC is only for the Jews or that we're not in it yet?

I believe Jeremiah 31:31.

As I've stated....God made a Covenant with Adam that Paul claims affected ALL of humanity.

Where does the Bible say say God made a covenant with Christians?

Then God DID make some Covenants that were meant only for Israel.

But, as I've said, Paul did say that we are grafted into the New Covenant.

Paul used the word "covenant" 3 times.

Rom 11:26-27,

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

​

27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

Who is them? Verse 26 says Israel.

The other 2 usages are Gal 3:15 & 17. The context there is Paul calling the Galatians fools for thinking they could be made perfect by following the law, which law was part of the covenant God made with Israel at Mount Sinai.

Jesus DID say that ALL the nations are to be taught.

He also said that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

So if we're not under any Covenant,,,
what is our relationship to God?

Ask your pastor about the mystery that was hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul. That is what defines our relationship to God.

The Covenants were agreements between God and man.
What agreement do we have with God?

All God asked of us was to confess with our mouth the lord Jesus and believe He raised him from among the dead (Rom 10:9). It says if we do that we are saved. We become God's sons and daughters by seed, i.e. a new birth.

And was Paul wrong?
Are we NOT grafted in?

No Paul was not wrong. We are grafted in, not by covenant, but by the mystery that was hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul.

Regarding Jeremiah 31.....God said He would make a new covenant with the laws written ON THE HEART,,,not on stone.
Just think....the entire NT speaks of how God's laws are a heart matter and not a law matter.

Why do you ignore to whom God spoke in Jeremiah? It's pretty clear

Interesting.
Seem like the teachings of Jesus,,,the testator of the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

That was very true under law, which law was in effect until the day of Pentecost

I wonder if we can even agree on what THAT means....

Can we agree that, as I said, the law was still in effect when Jesus spoke those words? The law was part of the old covenant God made with Israel.

 

[Rich R]

The above is not for me...
but what a GIANT strawman.

I dare say it's an honest question.

The bible teaches that salvation can be forfieted.
Those that believe what the bible teaches do not walk around in fear.

I think better Christians than either you or I have fallen by the wayside. You can not guarantee how you will feel about God in the future. Granted, you will probably remain faithful, but there's no guarantee. If that doesn't scare you, then I don't think you are being honest with yourself. The thought of losing salvation is a horrifying thought!

They walk around loving God and obeying Him and knowing He loves them back.
Love casts out all fear.

Apparently some like to reject having to remain in Christ in order to be saved because maybe they don't enjoy
remaining in Christ.

You see, it works both ways Rich R.

So we should stop with the strawmen...it would be nice.

AND
You should never assume anything of anyone.
Unless they state they walk around in fear...
you should not assume it.
I don't know ANY christian that fears God.

Then the can't fear losing salvation. If they think they can lose salvation and are not afraid of the possibility, they are fooling themselves.

But, you know what...a little fear might be good.
The devil prowls the earth,,,,seeking whom he could devour.
Not THAT is something to fear.

So you are afraid? I thought so. Who wouldn't fear if they thought they could lose their salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say the basics are that we were lost and now we're found. I trust we agree on that part. I'm sure we do.

Yes...Of course I agree.
But how to get there....
do we agree on that?
There are members right here that state that our behavior is of no importance.
§We have a small problem as Christians....

 

[GodsGrace]

I dare say it's an honest question.

I think better Christians than either you or I have fallen by the wayside. You can not guarantee how you will feel about God in the future. Granted, you will probably remain faithful, but there's no guarantee. If that doesn't scare you, then I don't think you are being honest with yourself. The thought of losing salvation is a horrifying thought!

Then the can't fear losing salvation. If they think they can lose salvation and are not afraid of the possibility, they are fooling themselves.

So you are afraid? I thought so. Who wouldn't fear if they thought they could lose their salvation?

You're assuming again.
I said love casts out all fear.
You sure take Jeremiah literally...!
(not what I state?)

Those that fall by the wayside are not afraid of forfeiting their salvation.
They are apostate.
They no longer believe in God or love God.
They don't care.
They've become like athesists...
Like those that Jesus called tax collectors.

Matthew 18.17
. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Whether it happens to anyone in particular is irrelevant.
What does matter is that scripture in the NT teaches one can fall from the faith....
and yet some on these forums state that it's impossible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I dare say it's an honest question.

I think better Christians than either you or I have fallen by the wayside. You can not guarantee how you will feel about God in the future. Granted, you will probably remain faithful, but there's no guarantee. If that doesn't scare you, then I don't think you are being honest with yourself. The thought of losing salvation is a horrifying thought!

Then the can't fear losing salvation. If they think they can lose salvation and are not afraid of the possibility, they are fooling themselves.

So you are afraid? I thought so. Who wouldn't fear if they thought they could lose their salvation?

PS
We SHOULD have a healthy fear of satan.
I think you misunderstood.
Satan is the cause of misery...and we should fear him.
We are not immune to his doings.
There were two terrible car accidents here by me...one in my small town
and one on the way to the city, 20 minutes south.
Certainly, God did not cause them,,,but the one who prowls.

 

[Rich R]

The entire bible has to be taken into consideration.
Have you looked into the Abrahamic Covenant again?
Does it mean nothing to you that Abraham even had his name changed because he would be the father of a multitude?
The translation is NATIONS.

It means nothing that Jesus comes from the line of David and the Davidic teachings and the fulfillment in Jesus?
(I mean the Davidic Covenant).

IOW, you believe that God meant for His revelation to be for the Jews ONLY?

God gave different revelation to different people.

1Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:​

​

1. Jews
2. Gentiles
3. church of God

Different people, different revelation.

You know, I'm really interested in Apologetics and Soteriology...
this is not a topic I'm going to care very much about
however
It is a teaching that is far from Christian theology.

Basically, what you're saying is that Jesus was Jewish,
The NC was only for the Jews,
and nothing Jesus said or did was for anyone else.

I've said that, " whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, (Rom 15:4)" If I saw a utility bill on your coffee table, I'd know you owe $50 (or whatever), but I'm not going to pull out my checkbook and pay it. It's addressed to you.

We can certainly learn from what God and Jesus said to the Jews, but they said it to the Jews. He tells me something entirely different.

If this is what you want to believe...
so be it.

I would question though,,,,WHO you think Jesus is and WHY you would want to worship a being that does not want YOU.

That's reading a lot into what I've said. It's just that Jesus meant something different to me than he did to the Jews. I dare say, the mystery that Paul revealed is far superior to either covenant God made with Israel...not that God shortchanged Israel in any way. It's just that the new creation God made in Christians has a bit of an advantage over Israel. Unfortunately, it is that very advantage that is overlooked when Christians appropriate that which God meant for Israel. But in the end, nobody's going to be disappointed with what the future holds.

But we should end it here.

Sound good. God bless. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Rich R]

Yes...Of course I agree.
But how to get there....
do we agree on that?
There are members right here that state that our behavior is of no importance.
§We have a small problem as Christians....

I'm not so sure anybody here thinks there behavior is of no importance. I think maybe you misunderstand those who you think feel that way. But I suppose I could be wrong

Our behavior does matter. Personally, I want to please God, but He's not going to un-son me if I don't (and sometimes I, like all of us, don't). Not even an earthly father could do that!

 

[Rich R]

You're assuming again.
I said love casts out all fear.
You sure take Jeremiah literally...!

How should I take it? Like there's some secret meaning that only "the initiated" know? If I want to take it symbolically, I could say that Jeremiah meant that heaven is on Mars, and we're all going there. I mean, who holds the "key" to the "secret meaning?"

(not what I state?)

Those that fall by the wayside are not afraid of forfeiting their salvation.
They are apostate.
They no longer believe in God or love God.
They don't care.
They've become like athesists...
Like those that Jesus called tax collectors.

A lot of assumptions there.

Matthew 18.17
. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Whether it happens to anyone in particular is irrelevant.
What does matter is that scripture in the NT teaches one can fall from the faith....
and yet some on these forums state that it's impossible.

Almost hate to say it again, but Jesus was speaking to Jews during the law. I'm not sure why that's so complicated.