In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Earburner]

I've provided the evidence that the Daniel 9:27 consummation is not by fire.

You've provided nothing but denial.

The fallacy and fabrication are yours.

Further evidence:
Daniel's consummation was localized to Jerusalem and Judaea.
The final fiery consummation will be planetary.

You're espousing the Scofield dispensational futurism that you profess to abhor.

Your evidence is what I referred to as being by "the wisdom of men". "Word crunching" is not to be compared to the Holy Spirit's teaching us individually. Be careful of the "Scribes and the Pharisees" of our days, who have been polluted by the denominational Bible Colleges and Seminaries (Scofield etc.).
1 John 28
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So again, I refer you back to my post #222, whereby you can counsel with the Holy Spirit, by asking Him why some people believe threre are two "the consummation"(s) but only ONE is written/mentioned in scripture?
Therefore according to your liking, you can then be in denial of both the written word AND the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

You do need to regroup with Him and re-study.

 

[Douggg]

Actually, in post #230 Ronald D. Milam does a phenominal job of providing the historical record about the era and history surrounding Antiochus lV Epiphanes, the "little horn". My comments on it are in #239.

Unfortunately, though his work is that good for detail, he also has indirectly slipped up a bit and has accepted some corruption by church-ianity's very own false teacher Rev. Cyrus Scofield, and his diabolical view about the 70th week, that has corrupted most all of the fundamentalist churches.

Show a time line chart of your interpretation of the 70 weeks.

 

[Earburner]

Show a time line chart of your interpretation of the 70 weeks.


View attachment 68120

I do not need graphs, nor do I have any.
I don't believe or learn the Lord's truth according to "the wisdom of men", but rather by the scriptures and the anointing of the Lord's Holy Spirit within me.

However, I will give you this much:
The days "of great tribulation" began in the days soon after Jesus' ascension into heaven. To think that I am opposing most of "fundamentalism" (Scofield), that should set your head on fire.

 

[Exegesis]

What year was the Messiah cutoff ?

I go by Biblical years using the day/year principle. Unlike you and everyone else here, I don't change my exegesis from year to day, then from day to year, back and forth depending on which way the wind blows.

Messiah was cut off on day, i.e., year 2300 which began after the flood of Noah...

​

When God made the covenant with Noah, the 2300 day/year clock began ticking at that moment. Again, I stick with years as is proper exegesis.

Sounds like you have a gap between the Messiah cutoff and 70 AD.

Sorry, I wrote that wrong. I meant the 1260/1290/1335/2300 days prophecy ended in 70AD.

The Crucifixion was when Messiah was 'cut off' in the middle of the final week. I do not believe in a future '7 year' or '3-1/2 year' continuation after some imaginary gap of time.

Here is my timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place.
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

It all fits perfectly in normal chronological order. No crazy convoluted charts are required. God wishes for prophecy to be easily understood, but not too easily.

My chart is simple, and easy to understand, and most importantly it is Biblical:

​

Several people in this thread are giving glory and power to Antiochus IV Epiphanes by erasing the Crucifixion and Jesus from the Book of Daniel. Moreover they congratulate themselves as if they did something amazing by 'solving the riddle'. All they managed to accomplish is promote the lies vomited by those that hate the New Testament, hate Christians and hate Jesus. It is disgusting really.

By using Antiochus IV Epiphanes as a scapegoat for the NT haters, they have now thrown the REAL Little Horn and all of that amazing OT history into the garbage. Instead of the Abomination of Desolation being about the Crucifixion of Jesus and destruction of Jerusalem, they made it about some stupid pig and 'happy Hanukkah'. What a joke.

Like I said, the verses in Daniel 11, from 20 onward, are about Rome (fourth kingdom) and Julius Caesar (raiser of taxes), Augustus (who the Prince of the Covenant is broken) and King Herod and his dynasty (tidings from the eastern Magi trouble him). It is all there in plain sight, but again folks here would rather erase Jesus from Daniel so that the prophecies are 'politically correct', sanitized, and follow the 'official narrative' of the NT haters.

 

[Douggg]

I do not need graphs, nor do I have any.
I don't believe or learn the Lord's truth according to "the wisdom of men", but rather by the scriptures and the anointing of the Lord's Holy Spirit within me.

However, I will give you this much:
The days "of great tribulation" began in the days soon after Jesus' ascension into heaven.

When do the 70 weeks end ? What event ?

 

[Douggg]

I go by Biblical years using the day/year principle. Unlike you and everyone else here, I don't change my exegesis from year to day, then from day to year, back and forth depending on which way the wind blows.

Messiah was cut off on day, i.e., year 2300 which began after the flood of Noah...

View attachment 68118​

When God made the covenant with Noah, the 2300 day/year clock began ticking at that moment. Again, I stick with years as is proper exegesis.



Sorry, I wrote that wrong. I meant the 1260/1290/1335/2300 days prophecy ended in 70AD.

The Crucifixion was when Messiah was 'cut off' in the middle of the final week. I do not believe in a future '7 year' or '3-1/2 year' continuation after some imaginary gap of time.

Here is my timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place.
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

It all fits perfectly in normal chronological order. No crazy convoluted charts are required. God wishes for prophecy to be easily understood, but not too easily.

My chart is simple, and easy to understand, and most importantly it is Biblical:

View attachment 68119​

Several people in this thread are giving glory and power to Antiochus IV Epiphanes by erasing the Crucifixion and Jesus from the Book of Daniel. Moreover they congratulate themselves as if they did something amazing by 'solving the riddle'. All they managed to accomplish is promote the lies vomited by those that hate the New Testament, hate Christians and hate Jesus. It is disgusting really.

By using Antiochus IV Epiphanes as a scapegoat for the NT haters, they have now thrown the REAL Little Horn and all of that amazing OT history into the garbage. Instead of the Abomination of Desolation being about the Crucifixion of Jesus and destruction of Jerusalem, they made it about some stupid pig and 'happy Hanukkah'. What a joke.

Like I said, the verses in Daniel 11, from 20 onward, are about Rome (fourth kingdom) and Julius Caesar (raiser of taxes), Augustus (who the Prince of the Covenant is broken) and King Herod and his dynasty (tidings from the eastern Magi trouble him). It is all there in plain sight, but again folks here would rather erase Jesus from Daniel so that the prophecies are 'politically correct', sanitized, and follow the 'official narrative' of the NT haters.

When do the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 end ? What event ?

 

[Exegesis]

When do the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 end ? What event ?

The 70 weeks of Daniel end three and a half years after the Crucifixion.

 

[covenantee]

Your evidence is what I referred to as being by "the wisdom of men". "Word crunching" is not to be compared to the Holy Spirit's teaching us individually. Be careful of the "Scribes and the Pharisees" of our days, who have been polluted by the denominational Bible Colleges and Seminaries (Scofield etc.).
1 John 28
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So again, I refer you back to my post #222, whereby you can counsel with the Holy Spirit, by asking Him why some people believe threre are two "the consummation"(s) but only ONE is written/mentioned in scripture?
Therefore according to your liking, you can then be in denial of both the written word AND the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

You do need to regroup with Him and re-study.

Why are you espousing Scofield dispensational futurism, which is utterly antithetical to the teaching of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Earburner]

Several people in this thread are giving glory and power to Antiochus IV Epiphanes by erasing the Crucifixion and Jesus from the Book of Daniel. Moreover they congratulate themselves as if they did something amazing by 'solving the riddle'. All they managed to accomplish is promote the lies vomited by those that hate the New Testament, hate Christians and hate Jesus. It is disgusting really.

By using Antiochus IV Epiphanes as a scapegoat for the NT haters, they have now thrown the REAL Little Horn and all of that amazing OT history into the garbage. Instead of the Abomination of Desolation being about the Crucifixion of Jesus and destruction of Jerusalem, they made it about some stupid pig and 'happy Hanukkah'. What a joke.

As for the time of Noah and the flood, I do not accept following any method of observing time from that point, to accurately come to 2300 years.

As to the above about Antiochus lV Epiphanes (A4E) I do not know how you are meaning what you are referencing.
A4E was a pivotal figure prophetically and did prove to be that historical "little horn" .

Yes, I strongly agree that Jesus was the AoD, but how are you meaning happy Hanukkah? I for one use that Jewish celebration as being nothing more than evidence of the historical record of 1&2 Maccabees to prove that the "little horn" was indeed Antiochus lV Epiphanes.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Hi Ronald, I must say that I enjoyed the detail of your historical work about A4E and all the background that went along with it.
Years ago, I also undertook the exhausting work of comparing the details of that era of A4E with the prophecies of Daniel and the historical details found in 1&2 Maccabees, provided by the Jews.

However, there is one major oversight on your part that needs to be discovered and presented for all its own details, and that is the 2300 Days prophecy.
When one understands the time element and the simple math required of counting time in the 2300 Days, they will be well rewarded in discovering the real truth about A4E, and that is, he really was the one and the only "little horn".

 Thanks for presenting your truthful, detailed work here for us to view. Unfortunately not many can or will appreciate it, due to the fact that most here have already been drinking the Kool aide of the Scofield scam about the 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24-27.
His Blessings to you,
Earburner

Hello my friend, I do not know what the "Scofield Scam" is but I believe the 70th week is yet to come, if that is what the so called scam is. As per the 2300 days, its not really 2300 days, it is 2300 Evening and Morning "Sacrifices" and since we see Daniel in Dan. 9, verses 1-21 praying at the time of the "Evening Sacrifice" that means there was 2 Daily Sacrifices, not one, thus taking away 2300 Daily Sacrifices means that it only covers 1150 days overall, which fits in the coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beasts 1260 days rule.

 

[Douggg]

The 70 weeks of Daniel end three and a half years after the Crucifixion.

So, three and a half years after the cross, what event ended the 70 weeks ?

 

[Douggg]

My chart is simple, and easy to understand, and most importantly it is Biblical:

On your chart you have day (which you are calling years) 1335 as the destruction of temple.

Let's see what Daniel 12:12 says...

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The destruction of the temple was the blessing ?

 

[Douggg]

The Crucifixion was when Messiah was 'cut off' in the middle of the final week. I do not believe in a future '7 year' or '3-1/2 year' continuation after some imaginary gap of time.

Ezekiel 39 proves your position of no future 7 years incorrect.

Show your chart of Ezekiel 39.

Here's mine....

 

[covenantee]

So, three and a half years after the cross, what event ended the 70 weeks ?

The end of the period delineated by 70 determined weeks,
and
The beginning of the proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[Douggg]

Hello my friend, I do not know what the "Scofield Scam" is but I believe the 70th week is yet to come, if that is what the so called scam is. As per the 2300 days, its not really 2300 days, it is 2300 Evening and Morning "Sacrifices" and since we see Daniel in Dan. 9, verses 1-21 praying at the time of the "Evening Sacrifice" that means there was 2 Daily Sacrifices, not one, thus taking away 2300 Daily Sacrifices means that it only covers 1150 days overall, which fits in the coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beasts 1260 days rule.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The daily sacrifice was the two lambs. The 2300 days are 2300 days.

 

[Douggg]

I do not need graphs, nor do I have any.

You need to type out a timeline of the 70th week so others can see your interpretation of the 70th week.

Here is mine, as an example....

Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant...................middle of the week, stops the daily sacrifice/abominations take place...........end of the week, Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

The end of the period delineated by 70 determined weeks,
and
The beginning of the proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

You need to type out a timeline of the 70th week so others can see your interpretation of the 70th week.

Here is mine, as an example....

Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant...................middle of the week, stops the daily sacrifice/abominations take place...........end of the week, Jesus returns.

 

[Earburner]

Why are you espousing Scofield dispensational futurism, which is utterly antithetical to the teaching of the Holy Spirit?

Lol....I'm espousing Scofield dispensational futurism??
On the contrary, I am continually revealing and countering that corrupt false doctrine, proving that it is a lie from the bottomless pit.
I am not going on the defensive here. I am simply proving that fundamentalist church-ianity has made Rev. Scofield's false teaching very popular, so much so, even the "unsaved" are expecting "a no show", fictional character, that church-ianity calls "THE Antichrist".

 

[Earburner]

Hello my friend, I do not know what the "Scofield Scam" is but I believe the 70th week is yet to come, if that is what the so called scam is. As per the 2300 days, its not really 2300 days, it is 2300 Evening and Morning "Sacrifices" and since we see Daniel in Dan. 9, verses 1-21 praying at the time of the "Evening Sacrifice" that means there was 2 Daily Sacrifices, not one, thus taking away 2300 Daily Sacrifices means that it only covers 1150 days overall, which fits in the coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beasts 1260 days rule.

I understood that you perceive that the 70th week still remains to be fulfilled.
My take up with you is not about the 70 week prophecy, but rather the prophecy about "the 2300 days" and the "little horn", as described in Daniel. You did a very good job in revealing the "little horn" character named Antiochus lV Epiphanes, as history portrays him in 1&2 Maccabees, but you made no mention about Judas Macabbeus and how he was involved with the 2300 day prophecy also.

As for the 2300 days, indeed I do understand it as being "evenings and mornings", but it is a prophecy that is 100% fulfilled.

As for the 70 week prophecy, that is 99% fulfilled. We are still waiting for "the consummation", as stated in Dan. 9:27.
My take on the entirety of it is interpreted in light of the fact that the 70th week is completely FULFILLED through the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus. John for 6 mos., and Jesus for 3.0 years, of which adds up to be 1260 days.

 

[Exegesis]

As for the time of Noah and the flood, I do not accept following any method of observing time from that point, to accurately come to 2300 years.

Hi @Earburner . You don't have to follow anyone's method outside of the Bible. That's the beauty of it. I merely showed that sources outside of the Bible are in agreement which is nice.

As to the above about Antiochus lV Epiphanes (A4E) I do not know how you are meaning what you are referencing.
A4E was a pivotal figure prophetically and did prove to be that historical "little horn" .

For the past several months I have been painstakingly going over every word of every verse in Daniel 11, even to the point of making a very large Excel spreadsheet. What I have discovered is that there is a conspiracy and a coverup going on (spirit at work) to make Antiochus IV Epiphanes more of a big deal than he was. Sure, there are a few verses dedicated to him, but Daniel 11 moves on after that.

In other words, if scholars actually interpreted the verses correctly, it would show that not only was Jesus prophesied in Daniel 11, but also the Crucifixion and even the destruction of Jerusalem. This would definitively prove that the Jews either absolutely knew what was about to happen, or they should have known making them look really bad.

The bottom line is that if this news ever went mainstream, it would enrage a lot of non-Christians and upset a lot of apple carts. There is an agenda to sweep this under the rug. I am trying to make folks aware that they are 'playing into the enemies hand' so to speak by going along with it.

I spend a lot of time on non-Christian forums where the hatred from non Messianic Jews towards Christians and the New Testament is out in the open and very bold and brazen. They stress hard that the AoD was what A4E did because they abhor anything Jesus.

Yes, I strongly agree that Jesus was the AoD, but how are you meaning happy Hanukkah? I for one use that Jewish celebration as being nothing more than evidence of the historical record of 1&2 Maccabees to prove that the "little horn" was indeed Antiochus lV Epiphanes.

If one were to be non-biased as I have with Daniel 11, one would find that the timeline has been tinkered with in the mainstream commentaries and cannot be trusted and that the verses do not actually match the events the mainstream scholars and non Messianic Jews promote.

When one corrects the timeline, the Little Horn ends up being either Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus, also known as Octavian, or it is King Herod.

It is no wonder why so many are confused about when some of the later verses take place. They put them into the future because, again, their timeline is messed up to the point where nothing makes sense.

Here is a brief version of the corrected timeline:

• Verse 13: Antiochus III dies
• Verse 14: Antiochus IV Epiphanes reign begins
• Verse 19: Antiochus IV Epiphanes dies <- This is the end of the third kingdom
• Verse 20: Julius Caesar <- Daniel 11 moves into the Rome portion of prophecy, i.e., Fourth Kingdom.
• Verse 21: 'Vile Person' / Little Horn of Daniel 8 <- The *new* King of the North. Probably Augustus, but could be Herod.
• Verse 25: Battle of Actium <- With Cleopatra and Mark Antony
• Verse 28: Augustus/Rome conquers Egypt <- This is the end of the Ptolemy (King of the South) Empire

Both Little Horns are always in the Fourth Kingdom/Roman/Legs and Feet portion of prophecy, no matter where one looks.

I will be publishing my results when I am done.