Bread and wine or crackers and kool-aid

[Grailhunter]

Communion
Eucharist
The Bread and Wine Ritual

The Protestants use something like Kool-aid and various crackers.
The Catholics use what they call a host which represents the body of Christ. The priest drinks the wine but the congregation does not get wine.
My preference is to more or less a reenactment of the evening of the last supper. Someone reads from the Bible and breaks bread and pass it around and pours wine in a goblet and pass it around. And then read John chapter 6:35-59.

Now the questions are….
Do they all have the same effect or meaning?
How do you think the 1st century church did this?

 

[Athanasius377]

Not all protestants use crackers and kool-aid. In fact, as an Anglican, that is not communion. Rather, I would consider the act of communion with crackers and kool aid to be a mocking of the Sacrament. Communion, or Eucharist (meaning "Thanksgiving") is bread and wine. In our tradition, we use leavened bread and wine cut with water. Catholics will use unleavened bread cut into circular bits, referred to as a host, which does not represent the body of Christ, it IS the body of Christ for catholics. Furthermore, modern Rome allows the laity to receive the cup, at least since the reforms of Vatican II in the mid 1960's.

If someone has a problem with alcohol, then as a pastoral exception, our church will offer non-alcoholic wine to that person discreetly, but it is still wine. As far as bread, we use leavened as is the custom in the East, but if you prefer unleavened, them that is fine too

As far a scripture goes, we just recite scripture here:


. . .that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”


26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.


The New King James Version. Thomas Nelson, 1982, p. 1 Co 11:23–26.

Here is Justin Martyr's (110-165 AD) account of Communion in his first Apology:


And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.





CHAP. LXVII.—WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.



And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,2 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.



Justin Martyr. “The First Apology of Justin.” The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, edited by Alexander Roberts et al., vol. 1, Christian Literature Company, 1885, pp. 185–86.

 

[grumix8]

I prefer kool aid or grape juice was used in church I went crackers also used.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Wine and hearty bread, not grape juice and crackers!

Man always tampering with biblical things.

 

[David Lamb]

Communion
Eucharist
The Bread and Wine Ritual

The Protestants use something like Kool-aid and various crackers.
The Catholics use what they call a host which represents the body of Christ. The priest drinks the wine but the congregation does not get wine.
My preference is to more or less a reenactment of the evening of the last supper. Someone reads from the Bible and breaks bread and pass it around and pours wine in a goblet and pass it around. And then read John chapter 6:35-59.

Now the questions are….
Do they all have the same effect or meaning?
How do you think the 1st century church did this?

I have never heard of Kool-aid before - presumably some kind of drink. I have never come across a church that uses "something like Kool-aid and various crackers" at the Lord's Supper. I'm not saying that none do, just that I have never come across any that do.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have never heard of Kool-aid before - presumably some kind of drink. I have never come across a church that uses "something like Kool-aid and various crackers" at the Lord's Supper. I'm not saying that none do, just that I have never come across any that do.

I am a theologian and at one point I was traveling to different Protestant churches to do studies. I use kool-aid as example of a cheap drink. Broke up saltines and chili crackers as unleavened bread.

 

[Lambano]

Bread and wine or crackers and Kool-aid?​

A friend of mine (and father of my godson) comes from one of those tiny island nations in the South Pacific, and I remember him joking during a bible study that if Jesus had come to his country, John 6:35 would read, I am the bananas and coconuts of life.

Since wheat flour has to be imported from Oz or NZ, I'll have to ask him if they use the local Pandanus bread made from breadfruit and coconut milk during the Communion ritual? And do they use the local Karewe palm-wine?

And theologically, does it matter?

 

[David Lamb]

I am a theologian and at one point I was traveling to different Protestant churches to do studies. I use kool-aid as example of a cheap drink. Broke up saltines and chili crackers as unleavened bread.

I think me not having heard of Kool-aid might be because I am in the UK. Perhaps it's American.

 

[Lambano]

I think me not having heard of Kool-aid might be because I am in the UK. Perhaps it's American.

It's basically colored sugar water.

 

[David Lamb]

It's basically colored sugar water.

Thanks.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think me not having heard of Kool-aid might be because I am in the UK. Perhaps it's American.

I didn’t actually see them mix kool-aid brand. I had a church tell me they use kool-aid but I was using the term as a cheap drink. I am sure some use grape juice.

The point here was is the religious significance and difference between grape juice and crackers and wine and bread.

 

[Lambano]

I am sure some use grape juice.

Methodist churches use grape juice instead of wine. John Wesley was a notorious teetotaler.

When we'd do the "God-and-Country" badge in the Boy Scouts, we'd joke about "Welch's and Wonderbread", two notoriously cheap brands of grape juice and processed white bread. If we didn't have an ordained minister coming along, we'd get the elements pre-blessed before heading out to the camp.

 

[grumix8]

People they did not have the money to buy wine and the other stuff and they were humble. If they could not afford is not tampering biblical things. They can't afford it was poor church. They did not want people to drink alcohol.

 

[indentured servant]

Communion
Eucharist
The Bread and Wine Ritual

The Protestants use something like Kool-aid and various crackers.
The Catholics use what they call a host which represents the body of Christ. The priest drinks the wine but the congregation does not get wine.
My preference is to more or less a reenactment of the evening of the last supper. Someone reads from the Bible and breaks bread and pass it around and pours wine in a goblet and pass it around. And then read John chapter 6:35-59.

Now the questions are….
Do they all have the same effect or meaning?
How do you think the 1st century church did this?

Paul had to tell them to stop being drunk during their gatherings. That shows they weren't performing any ritualized version of the last supper/Passover meal.

Especially the fact that they were drinking alcohol in the first place creates a tremendous contrast with the modern day symbolic expressions.

That, and the instruction for all to eat together as one, or eat before you get there, tells us that they gathered for an actual meal.

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul had to tell them to stop being drunk during their gatherings. That shows they weren't performing any ritualized version of the last supper/Passover meal.

Especially the fact that they were drinking alcohol in the first place creates a tremendous contrast with the modern day symbolic expressions.

That, and the instruction for all to eat together as one, or eat before you get there, tells us that they gathered for an actual meal.

In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions. 1st Corinthians 11:17-34

There is a lot of info here, some telling of the services in house churches and some that started customs that lasted past the middle ages.

First off real wine was used for the Last Supper ritual. There is nothing in the scriptures or history that indicated that Christ used anything other than wine. At times they would water down the wine but again nothing in the scriptures to indicate Christ used watered down wine. The only way this can be in your Bible is if you pencil it in. And so you know Christ was not indicating His blood was watered down.

Secondly Back then they could not keep grape juice for long. Grape juice was a harvest refreshment because they had no refrigeration. If you do not believe me set some grape juice out in heat for two or three days and then drink it. It will make you sick.

Also these verses indicate that the house church services were a built around a meal and the ritual of the Last Supper but as the Apostle Paul indicated it was not intended to be a full individual meal or a night of drinking. Christians eating and drinking together in moderation and singing hymns and worshiping the Lord.

A long standing custom came from this, that is to not go to social meals hungry. Take small portion to show appreciation to the host and drink in moderation. And again the warning regarding drunkenness shows they were not using grape juice or watered down wine.

Why the warning? The “church of Corinth was known for its sinful ways.

The only proper way to perform the ritual of the Last Supper is with real wine and real bread. Grape juice and crackers is an insult to the Lord. Christ did not get symbolically crucified….it was real.

Lastly the ritual of the Last Supper is a miraculous event as Christ described in John chapter 6. And if you did it wrong Christ knew it and you could be punished for it.

 

[indentured servant]

Thank you for adding

The only proper way to perform the ritual of the Last Supper is with real wine and real bread.

Thank you for expounding on my comment using Scripture in agreement to what I'd written.

Your historical points validating the presence of fermented wine and actual bread, with a full-on meal, in first century gatherings, were correct.

The only thing that caught my attention is the phrase, "perform the ritual."

I don't think it was meant to be a ritual to perform, but rather, a celebration and functioning of the Body of Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for adding

Thank you for expounding on my comment using Scripture in agreement to what I'd written.

Your historical points validating the presence of fermented wine and actual bread, with a full-on meal, in first century gatherings, were correct.

The only thing that caught my attention is the phrase, "perform the ritual."

I don't think it was meant to be a ritual to perform, but rather, a celebration and functioning of the Body of Christ.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, [was going to betray Him. John 6:41-71

A ritual that can kill you if you do it wrong.
A miracle just as Baptism is a miracle.
I have to warn you about believing nothing means anything.
Faith and belief is part of salvation.....without it....no salvation.
Read Christ's words.....if you do not do this He was not in you or you in Him.
If you believe everything is just for show.....don't count on salvation being real.

 

[indentured servant]

I have to warn you about believing nothing means anything.

Well, I... I guess, um, 'thank you"... uh, for that warning.

I'll be sure to heed it every time I'm tempted to "believe nothing means anything."

...it sounds like sagely advice. I'll be adding that to my list of koans... probably just below "listen to the sound of one hand clapping."
.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, I... I guess, um, 'thank you"... uh, for that warning.

I'll be sure to heed it every time I'm tempted to "believe nothing means anything."

...it sounds like sagely advice. I'll be adding that to my list of koans... probably just below "listen to the sound of one hand clapping."
.

You appear to be relatively new here, so welcome.

I am a theologian….formal education for most of my life in 5 countries.

True theologians do not belong to any denomination but I go to church….different denominations. My favorites are Holy Ghost churches. One of the reasons is that I have seen more miracles in those churches. It is good to have faith but I am a little past that, because of the miracles, I know.

Go to church and take Christianity seriously. If you have children get them involved in church and church activities. Some churches have youth ministers and picnics and fishing trips and Bible camps.

 

[indentured servant]

Go to church and take Christianity seriously.

"Go to church OR take God seriously."