Is it possible to lose salvation?

[nedsk]

Jesus was addressing the Jews here who thought that Jesus was talking about literally eating His flesh and literally drinking His blood (cannibalism). The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:50)

John 6:61 - When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Again, as Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.

I already thoroughly covered this in post #2,450. Once again, bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

You can cover it all you like it doesnt matter because Jesus said the "bread" that he will give is his flesh then proceeds to tell us THREE TIMES, eat my flesh and drink my blood. The people that couldnt handle that message left him. you cant handle that message.

 

[mailmandan]

You can cover it all you like it doesnt matter because Jesus said the "bread" that he will give is his flesh then proceeds to tell us THREE TIMES, eat my flesh and drink my blood. The people that couldnt handle that message left him. you cant handle that message.

Unlike those Jews in John 6 who thought Jesus was talking about cannibalism and could not handle that message and left Him, I can handle that message and I have not left Jesus.

I understand that Jesus was speaking metaphorically and not literally. It is the Spirirt who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Jesus explains that it's not physical bread, but spiritual bread. Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread (John 6:35, 58, 51) and twice He emphasizes belief/faith as the key to salvation:

John 6:40 - For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Goodness gracious.

There is no case for the other side. Jesus CLEARLY says he is the bread of life. (symbolic as he is NOT bread) Then he says the bread that i will give is my flesh... NOT symbolic as Jesus does have flesh. Thats followed up by Jesus saying 3 TIMES eat mt flesh and drink my blood and then says his flesh is real food and his blood is real drink. A person has to COMPLETELY ignore what Jesus says to claim he was talkng symbolically.

Ill ask you a question ive asked the deniers, just to get your take, IF IF Jesus did mean for us to literally eat his flesh and drink his blood what words would he have used? What I usually get from deniers is something ridiculous like, He would never tell us to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Ridiculous and intellectually lazy.

Well, I agree, so I'm going to stop here.
This started by YOU stating that a person that does not believe in transubstantiation is lost.

Whether they believe it or not, they are still getting the body and blood of Christ at their communion table.
THIS was my point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unlike those Jews in John 6 who thought Jesus was talking about cannibalism and could not handle that message and left Him, I can handle that message and I have not left Jesus.

I understand that Jesus was speaking metaphorically and not literally. It is the Spirirt who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Jesus explains that it's not physical bread, but spiritual bread. Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread (John 6:35, 58, 51) and twice He emphasizes belief/faith as the key to salvation:

John 6:40 - For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Why didn't Jesus stop the disciples that were leaving and advise them that they didn't understand and that He just meant it symbolically?
Jesus made them leave...
He doubled down and asked the Apostles if they also were going to leave Him.

Those that left said: THIS IS A DIFFICULT TEACHING.

And Jesus said to His disciples: DOES THIS CAUSE YOU TO STUMBLE?

Instead of correcting Himself...
Jesus asked if THE DIFFICULT TEACHING was going to cause them to stumble.

This was an important factor in changing my belief from symbol to, at the least, the Real Presence....
Luther also believed this BTW.
Only after the Reformation did this idea about symbolism come about.

The Reformation changed Christianity too much (although some of it was necessary).

 

[ProDeo]

He speaks in fleshly terms. Ignoring what Jesus says isnt a good approach.

Im going to ask you a question and hope you have the courage to answer, IF IF Jesus did mean for us to eat his flesh what words would he have used? Be specific.

Literally eating human flesh is against God's Law, likewise literally drinking human blood, any blood BTW.

Why is that so hard to understand.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Salvation does not cause works. People have to choose to do them. If you dont have a choice then you arent acting in love. If you drop a rock it falls to the ground because gravity causes it to. The rock is not dropping because it loves gravity.

Saved people have free will restored to them Unsaved people as it is written are slaves to sin.

Yes saved people are free to not do the works God prepared before the world began that they should do them. However if a person who professes Jesus as Savior and refuses to do the things god calls for- there is a real probability they never really got saved! Being born again is not just saying a prayer and getting fire insurance. It is a transformational change in a persons life! they are given a new heart, new mind, new destiny and new desire.

 

[Wynona]

@LoveYeshua

A while ago, I decided not to debate salvation doctrine anymore because I don't want to risk taking authority over men and being out of order as a woman.

Im glad to see that my silence hasn't left this forum without those who will patiently teach biblical truth about salvation. If anything, more men have stepped up who are on target.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus never says just once. In fact he says 1 Corinthians 11:23-26.

lol

in 1 cor he was talking about a ceremony we are to "do often in remembrance of him"

in John 6. Jesus is giving us the food which endures forever. which one can eat and not die.

Verse 26 is especially interesting, "And so whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes." Stop with your foolishness

Yes.

You have mixed a ceremony of remembrance, with the true food that anyone who eats will receive everything God promised in John 6.

again, why do you deny every promise Jesus gave in John 6?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then Jesus was lying. Excellent

Yes, You claim Jesus is lying in John 6..

That is not excellent in my view. it is troubling.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation does not cause works. People have to choose to do them. If you dont have a choice then you arent acting in love. If you drop a rock it falls to the ground because gravity causes it to. The rock is not dropping because it loves gravity.

If your not saved, You can not do good works.

If you notice in Eph 2: 10, we were created in Christ for good works.

before salvation, they are called works of self righteousness or bloody rags

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus was addressing the Jews here who thought that Jesus was talking about literally eating His flesh and literally drinking His blood (cannibalism). The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:50)

John 6:61 - When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Again, as Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.

I already thoroughly covered this in post #2,450. Once again, bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

if you follow the conversation. Jesus said it for a reason. to get people to walk away..

and it worked.

Sadly it caused a great many people to think he meant it literally.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You can cover it all you like it doesnt matter because Jesus said the "bread" that he will give is his flesh then proceeds to tell us THREE TIMES, eat my flesh and drink my blood. The people that couldnt handle that message left him. you cant handle that message.

And what did he say everyone WHO ATE THIS WOULD GET?

You believe what he said about the flesh. but reject what he said about everything else

 

[LoveYeshua]

@LoveYeshua

A while ago, I decided not to debate salvation doctrine anymore because I don't want to risk taking authority over men and being out of order as a woman.

Im glad to see that my silence hasn't left this forum without those who will patiently teach biblical truth about salvation. If anything, more men have stepped up who are on target.

Dear Wynona,

From the very beginning, women have a strong role in God’s plan. In creation, God made both man and woman in His image (Genesis 1:27). He gave them both the command to be fruitful, to multiply, and to have dominion over the earth. So from the start, woman was not created as lesser, but as a partner, a “helper comparable” to man (Genesis 2:18). Throughout the Old Testament, women appear as prophets and leaders. For example, Miriam, the sister of Moses, was a prophetess who led Israel in song after the crossing of the Red Sea (Exodus 15:20–21). Deborah was not only a prophetess but also a judge in Israel, giving guidance and judgment to the people (Judges 4:4–5). Huldah the prophetess was consulted by King Josiah’s officials about the book of the law (2 Kings 22:14). These show that God did not restrict women from speaking His word when He chose them.

When we come to Jesus, He treated women very differently than the culture of His time. He spoke publicly to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4), teaching her deep spiritual truths and revealing that He was the Messiah. She then went and told the men of her city, becoming the first witness to Christ there, and many believed because of her testimony (John 4:39). Women followed Jesus as disciples, providing for Him and learning from Him (Luke 8:1–3). Mary of Bethany sat at Jesus’ feet as a student, which was normally the place of male disciples, but Jesus affirmed her choice, saying she had chosen “the good part” (Luke 10:39–42).

At the cross, it was mostly women who remained faithful and did not run away (Matthew 27:55–56). And most importantly, the first witnesses of the resurrection were women. Mary Magdalene was the very first to see the risen Christ and was sent by Him to tell the disciples (John 20:16–18). In this sense, she was the first to proclaim the good news of the resurrection. If God wanted to silence women, He would not have made them the first preachers of the greatest message in history.

When Jesus sent His disciples two by two, He chose men at that time, and you are right that in the culture and dangers of the ancient world it would have been hard for women to travel in such a way. But that does not mean they were without role in ministry. The Bible shows them as teachers of their children, as faithful examples, as prophetesses, and as witnesses. From Jesus and the prophets before Him, the pattern is that God uses both men and women. Men often carried the public role of authority in that society because of strength, protection, and culture, but women were never excluded from being vessels of God’s Spirit.

So what does the Bible really teach? It shows that women are equal in God’s sight, made in His image, able to hear His Spirit, able to prophesy, and able to bear witness of the truth. They may not have always had the same public role as men in ancient times, but the word of God comes through them just the same when God chooses. The reason is not that women are less, but that God gave different roles suited to time, culture, and order. Yet in Christ, both men and women are His disciples, and His Spirit is poured out on “sons and daughters” alike to prophesy (Joel 2:28, fulfilled in Acts 2:17). This is why, Wynona, your voice in these end times to help bring the truth to light is so important

Thank you for your humble spirit and your desire to honor God. Remember that your voice still matters greatly—women throughout the Bible spoke truth, encouraged others, and bore witness of God’s works. Even if you choose not to debate, your testimony, encouragement, and sharing of God’s Word are never out of order. Please don’t stop the good works you are already doing, for the Lord sees and values them.

Blessings,

 

[Wynona]

Dear Wynona,

From the very beginning, women have a strong role in God’s plan. In creation, God made both man and woman in His image (Genesis 1:27). He gave them both the command to be fruitful, to multiply, and to have dominion over the earth. So from the start, woman was not created as lesser, but as a partner, a “helper comparable” to man (Genesis 2:18). Throughout the Old Testament, women appear as prophets and leaders. For example, Miriam, the sister of Moses, was a prophetess who led Israel in song after the crossing of the Red Sea (Exodus 15:20–21). Deborah was not only a prophetess but also a judge in Israel, giving guidance and judgment to the people (Judges 4:4–5). Huldah the prophetess was consulted by King Josiah’s officials about the book of the law (2 Kings 22:14). These show that God did not restrict women from speaking His word when He chose them.

When we come to Jesus, He treated women very differently than the culture of His time. He spoke publicly to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4), teaching her deep spiritual truths and revealing that He was the Messiah. She then went and told the men of her city, becoming the first witness to Christ there, and many believed because of her testimony (John 4:39). Women followed Jesus as disciples, providing for Him and learning from Him (Luke 8:1–3). Mary of Bethany sat at Jesus’ feet as a student, which was normally the place of male disciples, but Jesus affirmed her choice, saying she had chosen “the good part” (Luke 10:39–42).

At the cross, it was mostly women who remained faithful and did not run away (Matthew 27:55–56). And most importantly, the first witnesses of the resurrection were women. Mary Magdalene was the very first to see the risen Christ and was sent by Him to tell the disciples (John 20:16–18). In this sense, she was the first to proclaim the good news of the resurrection. If God wanted to silence women, He would not have made them the first preachers of the greatest message in history.

When Jesus sent His disciples two by two, He chose men at that time, and you are right that in the culture and dangers of the ancient world it would have been hard for women to travel in such a way. But that does not mean they were without role in ministry. The Bible shows them as teachers of their children, as faithful examples, as prophetesses, and as witnesses. From Jesus and the prophets before Him, the pattern is that God uses both men and women. Men often carried the public role of authority in that society because of strength, protection, and culture, but women were never excluded from being vessels of God’s Spirit.

So what does the Bible really teach? It shows that women are equal in God’s sight, made in His image, able to hear His Spirit, able to prophesy, and able to bear witness of the truth. They may not have always had the same public role as men in ancient times, but the word of God comes through them just the same when God chooses. The reason is not that women are less, but that God gave different roles suited to time, culture, and order. Yet in Christ, both men and women are His disciples, and His Spirit is poured out on “sons and daughters” alike to prophesy (Joel 2:28, fulfilled in Acts 2:17). This is why, Wynona, your voice in these end times to help bring the truth to light is so important

Thank you for your humble spirit and your desire to honor God. Remember that your voice still matters greatly—women throughout the Bible spoke truth, encouraged others, and bore witness of God’s works. Even if you choose not to debate, your testimony, encouragement, and sharing of God’s Word are never out of order. Please don’t stop the good works you are already doing, for the Lord sees and values them.

Blessings,

Thanks. I do believe I have a role to play. It's Titus 2:3-5. The older women should instruct the younger women on loving their husbands, children, and homes.

In debating salvation theology, I noticed that men mostly saw me as one to teach no matter what Scriptures I offered. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing that men do. Scripture upholds men as the primary defense of the truth of the faith (1 Timothy 2:11-14). I found more value in teaching Titus 2 things rather than salvation doctrine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why didn't Jesus stop the disciples that were leaving and advise them that they didn't understand and that He just meant it symbolically?

He already told them

You do not see because you do not believe

Jesus made them leave...
He doubled down and asked the Apostles if they also were going to leave Him.

Those that left said: THIS IS A DIFFICULT TEACHING.

And Jesus said to His disciples: DOES THIS CAUSE YOU TO STUMBLE?

Instead of correcting Himself...
Jesus asked if THE DIFFICULT TEACHING was going to cause them to stumble.

This was an important factor in changing my belief from symbol to, at the least, the Real Presence....
Luther also believed this BTW.
Only after the Reformation did this idea about symbolism come about.

The Reformation changed Christianity too much (although some of it was necessary).

What did Peter say when Jesus asked him.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Did he say you have the flesh that gives life. the bread that gives life?

He showed he understood.. The ones that left never got it

 

[nedsk]

Well, I agree, so I'm going to stop here.
This started by YOU stating that a person that does not believe in transubstantiation is lost.

Whether they believe it or not, they are still getting the body and blood of Christ at their communion table.
THIS was my point.

No I didn't say that I said Jesus said, "Amen amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of man and drink his blood you do not have life within you." And Paul reiterated it, "For a person who eats and drinks without discerning the body of the Lord is eating and drinking judgment on themselves ". It's rather straight forward.

No they are not. I will ask you AGAIN if the Jews at the first passover had just eaten bread instead of a lamb would the angel of death have passed over them?

 

[nedsk]

And what did he say everyone WHO ATE THIS WOULD GET?

You believe what he said about the flesh. but reject what he said about everything else

Eternal life AND as often as you eat it do it in remembrance of me. Never did he say do it just once. Youre.floundering now

 

[ProDeo]

if you follow the conversation. Jesus said it for a reason. to get people to walk away..

and it worked.

Sadly it caused a great many people to think he meant it literally.

Exactly.

We are not cannibals and vampires.

 

[nedsk]

Exactly.

We are not cannibals and vampires.

You don't pay attention do you? John 6:52 the people ask , "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus in response says, "Amen amen (in others stop being a putz and listen) I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you do not have life within you".

Now in order to believe he wasn't talking literally you have to be either illiterate or you just blatantly ignore what Jesus said.

 

[nedsk]

He already told them

You do not see because you do not believe

What did Peter say when Jesus asked him.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Did he say you have the flesh that gives life. the bread that gives life?

He showed he understood.. The ones that left never got it

The "words of eternal life" are, "Amen, amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life within you."

You don't like those words do you?