24 elders in Heaven

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Hiddenthings

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2025
3,777
415
83
Leeton NSW
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What do you think about how these worded

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer and how its worded

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Same shown in Enoch and how its worded

Heb 11:10 **By faith** Enoch was translated that he should not **see death**; and was** not found**, because God had translated him: for **before** "his translation" he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Every person who has ever lived has died.

Genesis 5:23 "All the days of Enoch were 365 years."

This is a fascinating study and one whose truth often escapes many Christians. It's clear that Enoch's life had both a beginning and an end, so why, then, does Scripture use the phrase "did not see death"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Muna
M

Muna

Guest
Okay, try it this way,

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not (( see death )) ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer according to how that is worded

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying , he shall never (( see death )).

How it's worded in Enoch

Heb 11:10 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not (( see death )); and was **not found**, because God had translated him: for before "his translation" he had this testimony, that he pleased God

Then the wording ** not found**

Enoch was (( not found )) shown as the same principal here

Where we are to be found

Phil 3:9 And (( be found )) in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God (( by faith ))

Even as it says, (( without faith )) its impossible (( to please God))

Heb 11:10 (( By faith )) Enoch was translated that he should not (( see death )); and (( was not found )), because God had translated him: for (( before )) his translation he had this testimony, that (( he pleased God ))

It's not speaking of dying there, because they all died.
 

Hiddenthings

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2025
3,777
415
83
Leeton NSW
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Okay, try it this way,

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not (( see death )) ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer according to how that is worded

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying , he shall never (( see death )).

How it's worded in Enoch

Heb 11:10 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not (( see death )); and was **not found**, because God had translated him: for before "his translation" he had this testimony, that he pleased God

Then the wording ** not found**

Enoch was (( not found )) shown as the same principal here

Where we are to be found

Phil 3:9 And (( be found )) in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God (( by faith ))

Even as it says, (( without faith )) its impossible (( to please God))

Heb 11:10 (( By faith )) Enoch was translated that he should not (( see death )); and (( was not found )), because God had translated him: for (( before )) his translation he had this testimony, that (( he pleased God ))

It's not speaking of dying there, because they all died.
"he was not found"

What's the implication?
 

Fred J

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2023
1,664
367
83
58
W.P.
Faith
Christian
Country
Malaysia
Dear Fred J,
God's Word is NEVER a waste. This is a blasphemous statement.

Concerning Elijah, when he was transported into the heavens in a chariot of fire, he did not die nor did he leave the earth. He was transported to another location. How do we know? Because of what chapter 21 of 2Chronicles says:

2Ch 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father [Jehoshaphat] and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also.

2Ch 21:14 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, “Thus says the LORD God of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah…”


Elijah sent a letter to Jehoram several years after he was transported to another location on earth in the chariot. This was also well after Elisha had taken up Elijah's ministry. Elijah was not taken up to heaven in a chariot nor did he die at that time. Though no specific scripture states when Elijah did die, he obviously lived for many more years after his chariot ride.

As for when Elijah appeared with Christ and Moses on the mountain, that event was only a vision. Moses and Elijah were not really there.

Concerning Enoch, here are the verses:

Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

You have to read into this scripture things it does not say to believe that Enoch did not die when God took him. The reason why many people do though is because of what is said in Heb 11:5:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated (G3346) that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated (G3346) him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

However, the verse above is poorly translated. The translation of the Greek phrase "metatithēmi" (G3346) is where the misunderstanding occurs.

Heb 11:5 is the only place in scripture that translates the Greek phrase "metatithemi" as "translated". In English, it seems to mean that Enoch was changed from a physical body into a spiritual body, and therefore, did not ever die. But this understanding cannot be true because it is contradicted by many other scriptures - some of which I presented to you in my previous post.

Let's look now at another place in scripture where the Greek phrase "metatithemi" is used and where it is translated better:

Acts 7:16 And were carried over (G3346) into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.

In Heb 11:5 concerning Enoch, the writer was only saying that Enoch was transported by God to another location so that he could avoid being killed. God did this for Enoch because He was pleased with Enoch's testimony that he made to a certain group of people. But evidently, this group of people was offended by Enoch's testimony and sought to kill him as a result.

If you look at the statements about the other OT faithful in that chapter, it is common for the writer of Hebrews to mention certain significant events in their lives, too. The statement about Enoch is no different.

This correct understanding of verse 5 is confirmed eight verses later in Hebrews.

In verse 13, it clearly says they the OT faithful who were mentioned in verses 4-12 "all died in faith". This includes Enoch. Enoch died just as all men eventually do.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch was not translated to heaven and never died as you and others believe.

Everyone who has ever lived & died (except for Christ) is still dead in the grave waiting for the bodily resurrection that will occur at the literal end of this present age. To believe otherwise conflicts with many scriptures.

Joe
i don't buy your 'theory' and 'scripture references' that doesn't add up.

When Elijah's time was up and passed his 'mantle' to Elisha, GOD had Elisha as HIS prophet to address things to Israel.

Elijah was no longer in the picture anymore, looks like you've got 'time' and 'incident' wrongly.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hiddenthings
M

Muna

Guest
"he was not found"

What's the implication?

I don't need a life coach Hiddenthings, I am posting comparisons, obviously if I have hightlighted the Spirit has brought the wording to my attention, so if you have any comparisons of your own just add them, but whyon earth do you always feel you must step into this role to guide to the conversation?
 

Hiddenthings

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2025
3,777
415
83
Leeton NSW
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I don't need a life coach Hiddenthings, I am posting comparisons, obviously if I have hightlighted the Spirit has brought the wording to my attention, so if you have any comparisons of your own just add them, but whyon earth do you always feel you must step into this role to guide to the conversation?
I'll leave you to your surface reading then.
 

Fred J

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2023
1,664
367
83
58
W.P.
Faith
Christian
Country
Malaysia
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, the thread is about the 24 elders in Heaven.

There are supposedly angels in Heaven, but the 24 'elders' spoken of i believe are the 'patriarch of Israel', the 'very elect fathers'.

They are those who have walked with GOD like Enoch and Elijah who've already been 'taken up' as the 24 elders.

Besides 'all Israel' and 'those in Christ dead or alive', have not been 'taken up', since also the living church saints are being baptized for the dead.

For also those 'elders' in Heaven, preventing them from the 'second death', during the coming judgement day shall take place and hence 'for ever'.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
 
M

Muna

Guest
So, you're sensitive, foul-mouthed, and you have a meter to measure it?

Does it only work on others?

We all have a BS meter HT and typically call out what it detects
don't you have one?

Just do a BS forum search, and notice how many of us have one
(some of them seem to work on others, yes)

Heres a few snippets...

So, the BS continues from both sides of the divide
But yes, lots of BS. (If that's what you want to call it) And surely lots of it.
I go by Gods Living testimony/ witness.......not your BS
(and you were right to call "BS"
Good for teaching and knowing when people are spreading BS
they lead others astray with all sorts of BS
PRAISE GOD, that my eyes aren’t BLINDED by your BS
Blaming God is total BS
she would fall for all the BS you just spewed out.
And the other BS
hint - one is real and the other is total BS.
fear monging 24/7 with a load of total BS
the rest is just total depraved outrigh BS
What a load of 13 years of BS drummed into their heads
trying to incorporate all scholarly knowledge into your view is just bs
The guy spits out bs continually.
it'a all one sided load of BS
the Hebrews nowadays is all BS
I call BS on your claim
The more I kept studying, the more I realized it's just a bunch of BS not found in scripture
this is all BS
how "christian he is" and all the other BS attached to it
how can we discuss with someone who repeatedly tells us we talk BS
With volume they provide a great cover for any sort of BS
All BS
nothing but a load of BS
some sort of bs like that
It's a total BS story
How soon people forget the BS
basically called BS on both of them
cutting the waste via cancellations of BS grant

Maybe we should not be calling nonsense BS ( or a bull's fecal)

Dung, might be more acceptable word, since its in the scripture

Mal 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces
Phil 3:8 for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung
 

NayborBear

Active Member
Jan 21, 2020
684
231
43
73
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?
I believe,but can offer NO proof...just something for y'all to ponder.
12 of the Elders are Jews!
The other 12 are those that have "earned" that spot from being the "fulness of the gentiles!"
 

Hiddenthings

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2025
3,777
415
83
Leeton NSW
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I believe,but can offer NO proof...just something for y'all to ponder.
12 of the Elders are Jews!
The other 12 are those that have "earned" that spot from being the "fulness of the gentiles!"
The numbers support your interpretation! same as the 144,000 12 x 12 Jew & Gentile
 
  • Like
Reactions: NayborBear

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,003
541
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Nearly all the NT teachings on the pathway to salvation include a time of falling away prior to an Elect person's conversion. The time that every Elect person spends as a "man of sin" is called a time of "great tribulation" and it occurs during Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. This time of drought occurs between the times a person receives the Early and Latter Rains.
Where did you learn such nonsense, or are you making it up yourself?! These are the only occurrences of the phrase "great tribulation" in the KJV:

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.​
Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

The only place that the phrase "man of sin" is mentioned is 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV:

(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Thee is no mention of being sinful is called a time of "great tribulation", and how on earth can every elect person spend time back in history during the time of Elijah? That is absurd! You sound like a mad man! o_O

When the Latter Rain eventually falls on an Elect babe, they will have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15).
More nonsense, and totally misunderstanding and inappropriate reference to the abomination of desolation!

This truth is confirmed by many scriptures. Here is one of them:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
Again an inapproriate and irrelevant reference! The people of Israel asked for a king to rule over them, rejecting God as their king. Samuel warns them that their future depends on their obedience to God and His commandments, and not rebelling against God (as they have just done), and he confirms, or emphasises, that their rejection of God as their king was greatly wicked, by calling on God to perform a miraculous sign - making it rain during harvest time, when normally it never rains. This is not the normal latter rain. The Cambridge Bible Notes says:
he shall send thunder and rain] “In ordinary seasons from the cessation of the showers in spring [about the end of April] until their commencement in October or November, rain never falls, and the sky is usually serene.” Robinson, Bibl. Res. I. 430. Wheat harvest was in May and June. See note on 1Sa_6:13. “Rain in harvest” served as a figure for what was unseemly and anomalous (Pro_26:1).​

As for your comments on Christ's "another language", Christ spoke His teachings to the Jews in Hebrew and not some other nation's language.
What? My comments were on Isaiah 28:11 - it has nothing to do with what language Jesus spoke! BTW, Jesus spoke in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language spoken by the majority of people in Roman Judea, including those in Galilee where Jesus grew up. For example:

Mark 5:41 WEB:
(41) Taking the child by the hand, he said to her, “Talitha cumi!” which means, being interpreted, “Girl, I tell you, get up!”​
Mark 7:34 WEB
(34) Looking up to heaven, he sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha!” that is, “Be opened!”​

Barnes's Notes on Mark 5:41 says:

Talitha cumi] = “Little Maid, arise.” Doubtless St Peter, who was now present, often recalled the actual words used on this memorable occasion by our Lord, and told them to his friend and kinsman St Mark. So it is the same Evangelist, who preserves the very word, which our Lord used, when He opened the ears of the deaf man, Ephphatha (Mrk_7:34). The mention of these words goes to prove that in ordinary life our Lord availed Himself of the popular Aramaic dialect.​

But since Christ's words were "spirit", they carried meanings that were different than how man's wisdom defines them. This usage of spirit words made Christ's Hebrew into "another language" - a language that mankind (including babes) cannot understand. Only converted believers who have the Spirit of Truth are given the ability to understand Christ's spiritual language. This truth is taught by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from his eyes. This healing only occurs when a person receives the Latter Rain (the baptism). This truth is also taught in Mark 8:15-25.
More rubbish! And Paul had his sight restored and afterwards he was baptized. Concerning the passage in Mark, you've obviously not understod the symbolism, or analogy, of the yeast (leaven). It's explained in the Matthew version:

Matthew 16:6-12 WEB
(6) Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”​
(7) They reasoned among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.”​
(8) Jesus, perceiving it, said, “Why do you reason among yourselves, you of little faith, ‘because you have brought no bread?’​
(9) Don’t you yet perceive, neither remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you took up?​
(10) Nor the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up?​
(11) How is it that you don’t perceive that I didn’t speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”​
(12) Then they understood that he didn’t tell them to beware of the yeast of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.​

Luke 12:1 WEB
(1) Meanwhile, when a multitude of many thousands had gathered together, so much so that they trampled on each other, he began to tell his disciples first of all, “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.​

The passage doen't support your claim!
 
Last edited:

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,662
235
63
65
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
i don't buy your 'theory' and 'scripture references' that doesn't add up.

When Elijah's time was up and passed his 'mantle' to Elisha, GOD had Elisha as HIS prophet to address things to Israel.

Elijah was no longer in the picture anymore, looks like you've got 'time' and 'incident' wrongly.
Dear FredJ,
I can't help you if you won't accept scripture as your source of truth. This is my last post to you.
Joe
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,662
235
63
65
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Where did you learn such nonsense, or are you making it up yourself?!
Dear keithr,
I learned it by the guidance of the Spirit of Truth. There is no other way to learn it.

In the three verses that you quoted on the great tribulation, they are teaching about the time an Elect person spends in a spiritually worsened condition with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling them. Christ teaches how this happens to a babe here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Here is what Christ is teaching in the passage using His spiritual language:

The symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

In Christ's spiritual language, Christ teaches His truth using parables, types, prophecies and analogies. Concerning "types", they are real events that teach spiritual truths that Christ will fulfill under the New Covenant. OT history is full of "types". Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought is a type, as are the stories of Lot and Noah.

Here is how Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought is spiritually fulfilled under the New Covenant:

To begin, Christ will come to an unbeliever and give them the small measure of the Spirit (the Early Rain). After a believer receives the Early Rain, they will become a babe in Christ and will make a confession of faith.

However, because of the babe's remaining spiritual blindness, the babe will not be able to fill their house with Christ's spiritual teachings. Because their house remains empty, Satan will come to the babe via the spirit of anti-Christ. Satan will then fill their house with his false truth. Satan's deceptions will then cause the babe to fall away and become apostate; a man of sin who mixes works with faith.

The apostate babe will remain in this "worse than the first" spiritual condition because of the drought that began after they received the Early Rain. The drought will only end when Christ sends a person to the apostate babe in the spirit of Elijah. If the babe is Elect, Elijah will end the drought by causing it to rain. Christ will then pour out the Latter Rain upon them. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and they will come out of Satan's deceptions. This is when the believer's time of great tribulation will end.

What I explained above is how the "type" of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought is spiritually fulfilled under the New Covenant.

Have you ever really read James chapter 5? James teaches the Early and Latter Rain concept in that chapter and refers back to the type that Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought taught.

James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit (wheat/the new child of God/a converted believer). 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back (a person who has the spirit of Elijah), 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Because Elijah is the one who causes it to rain, John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah to the Nation of Israel with the call to repent from their works. For the Jews to whom were given the Early Rain, they repented and began following Christ. Since the spirit of anti-Christ had not yet come, those who were Elect remained faithful until Christ's second coming on the Day of Pentecost. When Christ came, He poured out the Latter Rain. This was the Jewish Elect's day of conversion & salvation.

The pattern I explained above changed after Paul's death for all the babes in the church (Early Rain only). Now, after a person receives the Early Rain, they will begin the time of Elijah's drought. During that drought, every babe will "fall away" due to the deceptions of Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ.

If a babe is not one of the Elect, they will remain in that "worse than the first" condition (a man of sin) until they die.

If a babe is Elect, Christ will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call of repentance. Christ will then cause them to respond to that call by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the babe's spiritual blindness will be healed and they see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple).

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (like Lot did)

The verse below is synonymous with Mat 24:15 when a believer sees the Abomination of Desolation:

2Thes 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth (Elijah's drought) that he (man of sin) might be revealed in his time (when the Latter Rain falls). 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he (Elijah) who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way (the ending of the drought). 8 And then the Wicked (man of sin) be revealed (spiritual blindness healed), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (by judgment).

After a babe's blindness has been healed by the Latter Rain, the person will come out of Satan's deceptions and the man of sin will be revealed to them. Christ will then appear to the person and begin His judgment within them. This judgment is for the purpose of removing the believer's chaff/tares. Christ does this by removing the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot from within the believer.

The Great Harlot is a spirit word that represents mankind's marred spirit that all mankind has from birth.

Here is Christ's judgment as shown in Matthew chapter 24:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (Great Harlot), and the other left (the person's new divine spirit).

After this judgment is complete, the person will be converted and saved.

Since I don't believe you are going to be able to receive what I presented above, there is no point in responding to your other comments. My response would just fall on deaf ears like my response above probably has. If you are starting to understand though, I am willing to continue our discussion.

Joe
 
Last edited:
M

Muna

Guest
@FaithWillDo, let me ask you something.

Now I might not particularly see (or agree) with everything you have laid out for us but I am curious according to the patern you have set it forth how you could work in the verses I posted below. At least according to what/or how you might be comparing/seeing/or understanding this seven spirits more wicked than the first. Or perhaps just their particular workings in the man presented to us (which is of that wicked generation) and what makes the state of that man/ or this wicked generation worse than the first.

For example, Jesus speaks of this worse state/condition and of 7 (or rather 8) unclean spirits (in that state). This does bring to mind a few scriptures which not only speak of observing others state, but in one in place there is an observable 8 characteristics of wickedness given us. So that is what I am posting below, in brief, to see if these in anyway agree with what you might be setting forth in your above post.

For example, concerning anyones state, in proverbs it says,

Prov 27:23 Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks,
and look well to thy herds.

And so here in Paul we see he also looking after their state (being the flock of God)

Phil 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you,
that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Now here, Paul actually fears to find them in this particular state

1 Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates #1, envyings #2, wraths #3 strifes #4 backbitings #5 whisperings #6 swellings #7 tumults #8

So I would probably not call this 8 spirits in total (so to speak) but rather a picture of 8 wicked works, or 8 wicked workings manifesting through them (which would indicate their current state, and/ or condition) which would be working all manner of uncleaness. Obviously, this is not a good state but a worsened state. So would you understand this as persons who might have been washed (or made clean) as the house where the unclean spirit had passed out of, having left the house, so to speak (1 Cr 6:11) being given a fresh new start ( but now being empty and/or unoccupied) of what? the word of God or empty of the presence of Holy Spirit? Considering, the unclean spirit (which is departed) is looking to find a place of rest (in the continuation of its wicked works) to finds its rest back in the same person or house, at which time it brings with it many more (in this case seven other spirits more wicked than itself) to work all manner of uncleaness through such a one. Whereby evil men grow worse and worse, after that particular manner perhaps? Having returned to what is empty (or unoccupied) and evil be given its rest to work all manner of uncleaness (which is sort of how I am trying to convey how one might be catching it). I stink at putting things in my own words, it takes way to long to get where I am going by them.

How might these apply, to what you were seeking to show in the above

Since Peter also writes,

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Similar here, after a house is made whole as could be shown in this man where it shows us

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Where Jesus tells him to sin no more lest a worse thing come to thee

This would also seem to mesh with having escaped the pollutions of the world though the knowledge Jesus Christ but

2 Peter 2:20... being again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Whereas to the contrary in John it says,

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Okay so I got to work on the layout of what I am asking, but maybe I can just go with this, how would you fit the above references into your present understanding? Do they add to your present understanding, would they change it or would they just strengthen it?

How would you roll that out again using those is what I am asking you. Whenever you have the time to respond ofcourse.

Edit: fixed sentence
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
15,973
3,379
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Wow Davy are you for real man! That's a crack up! :jest:

Your calling The Word of God a crackup?!? You only show your Biblical illiteracy...

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail:
because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV


Matt 10:28
28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV


Apparently, you have succumbed to the doctrines of the false Jews about the Soul, wrongly thinking it is made up of material matter with the flesh body, and dies with the flesh body. That's what the Jews wrongly believe based on the Genesis 2:7 verse.