Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[Zao is life]

Here is maybe a way to look at it, and that it seems to maybe support Amil not Premil unless you can think of a way it could support Premil instead. I seriously don't care which view is actually Biblical, whether it be Premil or Amil. The issue is this. In my mind, if Amil is Biblical I then can not make sense out of numerous passages in both the OT and NT. That's one reason I keep sticking with Premil. Not because I'm anti-Amil, it's just that I can't make sense out of numerous passages if Amil is the correct position. That aside.

This verse right here might be the key in determining how many judgments there are. Do you have any thoughts on this verse?

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

I somewhat do. For example. I tend to take this to ultimately mean, that on judgment day everyone will then know everything about everyone. That only makes sense if everyone is present at the same time, both the saved and the lost, and that everything is being revealed about what both the saved and the lost did during their lifetime, every deed, every thought.

Suppose, for example, a spouse cheated on a spouse, numerous times even, but this spouse never found out before they died. Suppose in the end the spouse that cheated gets saved, except by that time the other spouse already died and was in a lost state when they died. Unless both spouses are present during the revealing of all things, how is the lost spouse supposed to find out what the other spouse did during their marriage if there is more than one judgment, one involving the saved, one involving the lost later on?

Per this scenario it would be during the judging of the saved when it is being revealed what this spouse did during their marriage prior to being saved. The other spouse is still dead, hasn't even been resurrected yet. The point being, it makes no sense to reveal every hidden thing about everyone unless all of the parties involved are all present at the time. Is this alone enough to debunk Premil? Maybe so, I'm not sure.

Something else this proves about everyone, is this, no exceptions. That just because one ends up saved that hardly means any bad deeds they did before and after being saved, that these things are not ever brought up again. Per the scenario above, unless these things are brought to light, that one spouse cheated on the other spouse numerous times, we then have to assume Jesus lied when He said what He said in Luke 12:2 if the other spouse never finds out that their spouse cheated on them numerous times before that spouse was saved, and that the lost spouse died before the other spouse was saved.

The point is, per this scenario above, the fact it is revealed that one spouse cheated on another spouse prior to that spouse being saved, undeniably proves that being saved does not mean any bad deeds a person did prior to being saved is never brought up again. I'm not suggesting that they lose their salvation at this point. I'm only saying that it is impossible that everything can be revealed about everyone if some of the things the saved did prior to being saved are never brought up again. That does not equal what Jesus said in Luke 12:2.

Maybe Revelation 20:12 is telling us that just like a visitor's register at the White House or in the entrance lobby of a museum, whatever is 'written' about every single person 'in the books' will be able to be 'read' by anyone.

With regard to your example, cheating on one's spouse is immoral and bad and wrong - but it's also not the only sin, and Romans 3:25 tells us that no one has NOT sinned,

so the criteria for being saved from the lake of fire will not be whether or not there were any individuals who never sinned (because there won't be), but whether or not those whose deeds are 'written in the books' are ALSO written in the Lamb's Book of Life - which is the OTHER book that was opened:

"And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and ANOTHER book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."
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But I don't believe that just because there may be only one judgment of the dead, that it prevents the thousand years from being a literal thousand years (the first thousand years of the ages of the ages which the Greek text of Revelation 11:15 mentions):

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign to the ages of the ages.

It just means that Revelation 20:1-10 is parenthetic to Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:11-15, so that if you cut Revelation 20:1-10 out and inserted it after the rest, it would read like this:

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
​

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. --

-- We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. -- Revelation 11:17-18

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 19:19-21 & 20:11-15)

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

-- The resurrection of the rest of the dead who had been judged ---​

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

* Satan first deceived Adam and Eve in paradise - in the Garden of Eden.​

 

[Zao is life]

And here is THAT ONE judgment that was enacted by God the Father 2000+ years ago:
John 3
[18] He that believeth on him [Jesus] IS NOT condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

THE RESULTS of John 3:18:
Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever WAS NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

IMO only if all individuals in all generations since Christ's generation (and all the generations which followed), continued in unbelief without ever repenting, did the judgment of all those billions of souls I just mentioned occur at the same time as the death and resurrection of Christ.

IMO you have the judgment and the time of the judgment conflated with the criteria by which all individuals who ever lived since the time of Christ till now, will be judged.

 

[grafted branch]

Maybe Revelation 20:12 is telling us that just like a visitor's register at the White House or in the entrance lobby of a museum, whatever is 'written' about every single person 'in the books' will be able to be 'read' by anyone.

I had someone described the books to me as the books containing the pages of time. Each page could be a day or moment in time, so when that page is opened, that period of time is seen or played like a movie. Put another way our future selves could be watching us right now as our current page is opened at the GWT.

Ok, no way to prove this idea but I did think it was interesting. This idea could also put the GWTJ taking place at no particular time, having it take place at the same time as what ever page is opened.

 

[IndianaRob]

I had someone described the books to me as the books containing the pages of time. Each page could be a day or moment in time, so when that page is opened, that period of time is seen or played like a movie. Put another way our future selves could be watching us right now as our current page is opened at the GWT.

Ok, no way to prove this idea but I did think it was interesting. This idea could also put the GWTJ taking place at no particular time, having it take place at the same time as what ever page is opened.

I would say get ready for an earthly judgement of sorts here on earth. From my research, I believe the powers that be are going to use our internet history to force us to comply with their great reset society.

Sort of like the Epstein files but they will threaten noncompliants with the release of the compromising things we’ve all said in texts and emails. All the websites we’ve looked at and images from our cameras while we were visiting those websites.

They even have all the conservations we’ve had around Siri, Alexa, ring door bells and no telling what else. Those devices are always listening and uploading to the cloud.

 

[grafted branch]

I would say get ready for an earthly judgement of sorts here on earth. From my research, I believe the powers that be are going to use our internet history to force us to comply with their great reset society.

Sort of like the Epstein files but they will threaten noncompliants with the release of the compromising things we’ve all said in texts and emails. All the websites we’ve looked at and images from our cameras while we were visiting those websites.

They even have all the conservations we’ve had around Siri, Alexa, ring door bells and no telling what else. Those devices are always listening and uploading to the cloud.

I agree that everything we have said or done on the internet has probably been recorded. I’ve heard that the encrypted messages have been recorded and once technology advances enough, perhaps through quantum computing, that they will know that information also. What we currently think is safely encrypted, like bank accounts and passwords, may at some point be easily known.

 

[IndianaRob]

I agree that everything we have said or done on the internet has probably been recorded. I’ve heard that the encrypted messages have been recorded and once technology advances enough, perhaps through quantum computing, that they will know that information also. What we currently think is safely encrypted, like bank accounts and passwords, may at some point be easily known.

If you’ve watched the Black Mirror series, that’s where we’re headed.

 

[grafted branch]

If you’ve watched the Black Mirror series, that’s where we’re headed.

I’ve never seen the Black Mirror series, I’ll have to take a look.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

There seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation:

The door that had been opened in heaven for John (immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence), allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" at the time of the receiving of the testimony (Exodus 20:18),

and we see it again in the scroll when the seventh trumpet sounds, and again when the seventh plague or bowl of wrath is poured out. The events of both the seventh trumpet and the seventh plague or "bowl of wrath" symbolize God's judgment.

Exodus 20:18: Receiving of the testament:

"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off."

7th TRUMPET

"And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail." (Revelation 11:19).

7th PLAGUE

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake." (Revelation 16:17-18).

7th SEAL (Note: a scroll is only sealed after the scroll has been written in order to seal its contents):

"And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

The scroll unrolled after the 7th seal was loosened, so we could view its contents - which were in place BEFORE the scroll was sealed:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5-6).

This is not an end-times chart. Just a summary of what the passages are talking about that use the symbolism of lightnings and thunderings:

View attachment 68854

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In Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment; and the cities of the nations are said to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

Revelation 15: The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony was opened in Heaven (verse 5):

* Four beasts
* sea of glass
* those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 4:

* 24 elders.
* clothed in white raiment.
* crowns of gold on their heads.
* sea of glass.
* Four beasts.
* Out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.

* The earthly tabernacle was a pattern of the 'tabernacle' in heaven.

* The testament that was in the ark of the testament in the earthly tabernacle consisted of the 10 Commandments representing all the law - and it's a testimony against us - see Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The nations seen being judged in the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19) are judged by the 10 commandments because without the blood of Christ covering "the mercy seat" there is no forgiveness for sins - which is the transgression of the law.

Revelation 11 (7th trumpet)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

@Zao is life, you lay out your case well, and I agree with you. I believe that that judgment happens at the same time when Jesus appears in the air with the souls of believers who have died, we rise to meet him in the air after being given our resurrection bodies, he burns off this decaying earth, he presides over the final judgment, he creates the new heavens and earth, and all resurrected believers descend with Jesus as the new Jerusalem to the new earth, where we will live and reign with and under him forever. That's the order of the one coming of Jesus that I believe the Bible presents. But we will know the exact fulfillment when it happens. Come soon, Lord Jesus!

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

LOL. How will we be "naked" in heaven? The souls of the believers won't be "naked". They won't be physically or spiritually naked in heaven but clothed with white robes. Read my earlier responses.

@TribulationSigns, Our souls won't be naked in heaven, because God will clothe us until our bodily resurrection, if we have died before Jesus' second coming:

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I agree with you, I think most of us would agree that the dead believers are clothed in white robes and those robes were made possible by the work Christ did on the cross.

If there is still one final judgment then that final judgment wouldn’t include the white robe wearing believers, right? I mean I’ve never heard anyone argue that a person can have their white robe stripped off of them at a final judgment.

@grafted branch, Those dead Christians' souls will return with Jesus:

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

The Thessalonians are concerned about their loved ones who have died since Paul has preached about Jesus' second coming, as to what has happened to them. Paul comforts them by saying that the Father will send their souls back with Jesus to be joined with their resurrected bodies at that same time when God raises them from the dead, the "house" that he talks about in 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Where does it say that? Nowhere. You make it up as you go to support your heresy.

Hebrews 12:22-24 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

Interestingly, we see “the spirits of just men made perfect,” who I believe correlate with “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.” The beast is simply this world, and his mark is that final mark of reprobation which the damned ultimately receive.

@WPM, first, no one knows who you are talking to, because you haven't put their "name" with an @ before it to direct it to them.
Second, I don't know what you are calling a heresy; I learned in seminary that there are five major interpretations for Revelation. They are just differences in Christians' interpretations of the Bible. Please don't label other Christians heretics unless they have deviated from the basic doctrines of the Bible.
Third, we are already citizens of heaven now, while we are still alive on earth (Philippians 3:20; Colossians 3:3--ESV):

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Fourth, notice, also, that the reason our position is in heaven now is that we have already been "raised with Christ," pretty obviously through the new birth.

 

[Earburner]

In both Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12 the books are opened. In Daniel 7:10 the judgment is set and the books are opened, while in Revelation 20:12 people are judged out of what is written in the books.

Are you saying these are both the same event and happened at the cross, or do you see the books being opened more than once?

Only once.
All of the OC saints who had died in faith, had NOT YET received the permanent Gift of the Holy Spirit, until immediately AFTER Jesus' death/resurrection.
These are they whose names were "remembered" by God. KJV Malachi 3:16. They are also seen in Rev. 6:9-11 as having received the "White robes" (the Holy Spirit) and are now asleep in Jesus, waiting to RISE from their sleep, to come with Jesus in the clouds, upon His Glorious return "in flaming fire".

According to the Amil view, many are not aware that it was these OC saints (Rev. 6:9-11) who are the symbolic 144,000.

 

[WPM]

@WPM, first, no one knows who you are talking to, because you haven't put their "name" with an @ before it to direct it to them.
Second, I don't know what you are calling a heresy; I learned in seminary that there are five major interpretations for Revelation. They are just differences in Christians' interpretations of the Bible. Please don't label other Christians heretics unless they have deviated from the basic doctrines of the Bible.
Third, we are already citizens of heaven now, while we are still alive on earth (Philippians 3:20; Colossians 3:3--ESV):

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Fourth, notice, also, that the reason our position is in heaven now is that we have already been "raised with Christ," pretty obviously through the new birth.

First of all, I did address it to someone. You obviously missed it. I quoted: IndianaRob.
Secondly, I've been interacting with him and cutting across his full Preterism, which is recognized throughout the broad Christian family as heresy (a denial of the literal, physical, visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ).
Thirdly, I have no difficulty with others having different orthodox views of Revelation, even though I have my own views. But I have the right to challenge what they believe, as they have me.

 

[WPM]

@TribulationSigns, Our souls won't be naked in heaven, because God will clothe us until our bodily resurrection, if we have died before Jesus' second coming:

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

He already said that above. You need to read people's posts before you rebuke them.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The white robes are the righteousness of Christ which we do have here and there but what Paul is talking about is the glorified heavenly body. Our heavenly house (body).

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

And I believe, @IndianaRob, that we will receive that heavenly house, our resurrection body, at Jesus' one second coming, when he will bring our souls back with him to resurrect us who have died and those who are still alive with our perfect resurrection bodies. We will all meet Jesus in the air and descend with him as the new Jerusalem to the new earth, which he will create to replace this old earth. When we die, Jesus' righteousness will clothe us in heaven. You can probably guess the passages that I have used to get this series of events:

2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
2Co 4:15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,
2Co 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

The previous context defines the "building from heaven" as our resurrection body (context always matters).

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Again, this verse is about Jesus' one second coming, when he will bring believers' souls with him to be resurrected with us, if we're alive.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—...
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (ESV).

Thus, our final home will be on the new earth, since the new Jerusalem is symbolic of all believers, the bride of Christ consisting of Old and New Testament believers. Heaven will meet and fill the new earth, where we will live and reign with Jesus, our adoptive Father, and the Spirit, our one eternal God.

 

[grafted branch]

Paul comforts them by saying that the Father will send their souls back with Jesus to be joined with their resurrected bodies at that same time when God raises them from the dead, the "house" that he talks about in 2 Corinthians 5.

2 Corinthians 5:6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



Give me your thoughts on this, according to verse 10 we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to receive the things done in our body. If our earthly body is resurrected and joined with our souls again at the second coming, that means there would still be things a person will do in his body after the second coming. Even if a person only does good after the soul is reunited with his body, it appears that good would still be judged according to verse 10.

Wouldn’t that mean there really is no final judgment since we enter into eternity after the second coming and our resurrected body’s would be immortal at that point?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

First of all, I did address it to someone. You obviously missed it. I quoted: IndianaRob.
Secondly, I've been interacting with him and cutting across his full Preterism, which is recognized throughout the broad Christian family as heresy (a denial of the literal, physical, visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ).
Thirdly, I have no difficulty with others having different orthodox views of Revelation, even though I have my own views. But I have the right to challenge what they believe, as they have me.

First, I just looked back at your post, and you didn't put his name and @ in the text of your message, so that's why I said what I said.
Second, what Christian bodies recognize preterism as a heresy. If they do, they are wrong. It is another interpretation that's different from the majority's opinion; that's all. It has a different way of connecting the Bible texts. As you say, if it denies the visible second coming, then I agree with you that it's a wrong interpretation of the Bible. How is it different from a-millennialism?
Third, I completely agree with your right to challenge me in how I interpret Revelation, and I have the same right about your ideas.

 

[IndianaRob]

And I believe, @IndianaRob, that we will receive that heavenly house, our resurrection body, at Jesus' one second coming, when he will bring our souls back with him to resurrect us who have died and those who are still alive with our perfect resurrection bodies. We will all meet Jesus in the air and descend with him as the new Jerusalem to the new earth, which he will create to replace this old earth. When we die, Jesus' righteousness will clothe us in heaven. You can probably guess the passages that I have used to get this series of events:

2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
2Co 4:15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,
2Co 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

The previous context defines the "building from heaven" as our resurrection body (context always matters).

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Again, this verse is about Jesus' one second coming, when he will bring believers' souls with him to be resurrected with us, if we're alive.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—...
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (ESV).

Thus, our final home will be on the new earth, since the new Jerusalem is symbolic of all believers, the bride of Christ consisting of Old and New Testament believers. Heaven will meet and fill the new earth, where we will live and reign with Jesus, our adoptive Father, and the Spirit, our one eternal God.

I do understand that belief but it’s not something I agree with. The new heavenly body is built and waiting for us to enter into it.

 

[WPM]

First, I just looked back at your post, and you didn't put his name and @ in the text of your message, so that's why I said what I said.
Second, what Christian bodies recognize preterism as a heresy. If they do, they are wrong. It is another interpretation that's different from the majority's opinion; that's all. It has a different way of connecting the Bible texts. As you say, if it denies the visible second coming, then I agree with you that it's a wrong interpretation of the Bible. How is it different from a-millennialism?
Third, I completely agree with your right to challenge me in how I interpret Revelation, and I have the same right about your ideas.

Where is it required to put @ when communicating with someone?
Are you saying Full Preterism is not heresy?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

2 Corinthians 5:6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



Give me your thoughts on this, according to verse 10 we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to receive the things done in our body. If our earthly body is resurrected and joined with our souls again at the second coming, that means there would still be things a person will do in his body after the second coming. Even if a person only does good after the soul is reunited with his body, it appears that good would still be judged according to verse 10.

Wouldn’t that mean there really is no final judgment since we enter into eternity after the second coming and our resurrected body’s would be immortal at that point?

We who will have been made perfect in our resurrection bodies will be judged after the second coming and as believers will be declared "not guilty" in that judgment, even though our sins will be exposed in that judgment. Sadly, unbelievers will have the "guilty" verdict. Look at Matthew 25:31-34 and Revelation 20:11-12 for the same final judgment, which happens, I believe, after the symbolic 1,000 years, which is a complete number representing the present age and all its tribulation, which intensifies before Jesus' second coming:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Obviously, this is the same public judgment with different details. When we rise in the air to meet Jesus and the souls of believers who have died but are joined then with their resurrection bodies, we will then descend as the new Jerusalem to the new earth (Revelation 21:1-2), which God will create. At the same time, the final judgment will take place. However, I am also a pan-millennialist; it'll all pan out! We'll all find out the details in the future!

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.