“But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth.”
(Job 19:25, WEB)
(Job 19:25, WEB)
I know
- Thread starter Matthias
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I‘ve been listening to people say that no one can prove that God exists. I‘ve been listening to Job, and that’s not what I hear him saying.
The living God, Job’s God, exists - and Job knew it.
The living God, Job’s God, exists - and Job knew it.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
That’s right. Neither did Job. He and I are bound by the constraints of history.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
How can the Redeemer stand on earth when God is a Spirit?
How can a man see God when JESUS said no one has seen God and no one can for He is invisible.
Did you catch the prophecy in Jobs statement? "I know my Redeemer lives"
Are God’s angels spirit? Have they stood on earth? Are they able to do something which God himself cannot do?
Moses saw God’s back. No mortal man can see God’s face and live.
Mortal man has the potential to become immortal. Immortal man, I believe, will literally see his God and Father’s face.
Have you ever pondered the tragedy of a son never being able to see his father’s face?
The blind will see. Right now we can only see in the mind’s eye. After we have been made immortal and are with the Father and the Son - we will see them both.
God’s Son is coming back. I have a thread on the topic of the Father himself coming to the new earth.
That is the point of the OP.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Angels can take on human form and materialize = Lot is one example
JESUS Says: "No one has seen the Father except He who is the Father AND no one has heard His Voice at any time"
Adam walked with the Lord in the Garden and heard His Voice
Isaiah saw the Lord
Ezekiel saw the Lord
Yes. The God whom scripture says can do anything cannot materialize himself? He cannot ever be seen by the angels? He cannot ever be seen by Jesus?
What? Only the Father has seen the Father? I don’t think Jesus said anything of the sort.
The Israelites heard his voice at Mt. Sinai.
Going back to the example above concerning the angels - the angels have never heard his voice and cannot ever hear his voice? Jesus never heard his voice and cannot ever hear his voice?
Yes, but he didn’t see his face. He heard his movement and he heard his voice.
In a vision.
In a vision.
Daniel also saw the Son of Man approach the Lord in a vision and heard them speak.
Reading post-biblical theology back into Job makes Job himself something that he wasn’t. It changes the biblical story.
Job isn’t speaking with or about the Messiah. And he certainly isn’t talking about … and neither am I.
The topic of this thread is proof of the existence of God.
P.S.
When did Job live? If we believe Job, and I do, the proof of God’s existence goes back at the very least to that time.
Job didn’t say, “No one can prove the existence of God.”
My proposition: Job knew for a fact that God exists and plainly said so.
***
“No one can prove the existence of God.” (This assertion has popped up on the forum several times today. That’s what prompted me to start this thread.)
Have you not considered Job?
What I’m looking for here is an argument, if someone wants to make it, that Job had no proof that God exists.
Last edited:
Always look for the strongest argument against your position
What is the strongest argument against the position I’ve taken?
I glanced at it a couple of times in the thread.
1. “Job the trinitarian is not a historical character.”
That’s a fact. But let the wind blow some dust away and let’s look at it again.
Job … is … a historical character.
Is that a fact?
I’ve taken it to be, and I believe there’s good reason to, but there are some reasons not to. That makes my proposition disputable.
2. “When did Job live?”
I didn’t offer a timeline for consideration. That’s a fact. But let the wind blow some dust away and let’s look at it again.
… did Job live?
I’ve taken it as a fact that Job lived, and I believe there’s good reason to, but there are some reasons not to. That makes my proposition disputable.
If we want to pursue it we need to identify and evaluate the reasons that make my proposition disputable.
Is Job a historical character or a fictional character?
“One of the great conceptions of the work of Jesus Christ, which runs through much of early Christian thought, and which is still dominant in the thought of the Greek Orthodox Church, is the idea of the deification of man because of what Jesus Christ has done. The who,e idea is summed up in one great saying of Irenaeus, who spoke of the Word of God who, through his transcendent love, ‘became what we are to make us what he is.’ The idea is that Jesus Christ by taking human nature upon himself freed human nature from the corruptibility which is the consequence of sin and deified it.
… this conception does not mean that man becomes identical with God. Sometimes in Greek, when a noun is used without the definite article, it has a kind of adjectival force. To say that man could become ho theos would be to say that man can become identical with God, one and the same as God. But to say that a man can become theos - using the word without the definite article - is to say that a man can come to have the same kind of life and existence and being as God has, but without becoming identical with God. The conception of deification is that man through Jesus Christ can be lifted out of the life of fallen and corrupt humanity into the very life of God.”
(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, pp. 259, 260)
Man has the potential to become theos but not ho theos.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I agree with that, but... Job seems to be aware of the Canaanite 'council of the gods' as well as a couple of mythological monsters from their pantheon.
If you're looking for Jewish monotheism, Job is strange place to look. It seems to be not originally a Jewish book. Nor is it explicitly monotheistic.
Job isn’t an idolater. His God is the one God of the Bible and the book of Job is part of the Hebrew Bible.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Creation proves that God exists.
It is a fact that everything that exists is created.
A Book is created by a writer.
A Song is created by a songwriter
A Bird's Song is created by a Bird
A Painting is created by a Painter
Heat outside is created by the SUN
All technoligy is created by invention = creation.
Everying livng thing is Created.
The EARTH exists .. the UNIVERSE exists, because they were CREATED.
A.) You can't have CREATION without a CREATOR
Now, Ask SCIENCE to create a Red ROSE from nothing.
They can't do it.
They can create it from a Seed....
They can take a piece of a Rose and re-grow it.
They can join it to another Flower, and make a Hybrid.
But only GOD can CREATE a RED ROSE from NOTHING>.......and He did.
Thanks.
***
@Riven have you had an opportunity to watch the Carl Sagan video I recommended to you the other day? It’s pertinent to the fine argument @Behold posted as well as to Antony Flew’s book There Is A God. Both Sagan (who died an agnostic) and Flew (who died a theist) touched on the one shortcoming.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I agree. But Job is a monaltrist - he believes in multiple gods, though he only worships The One. He holds other gods in contempt... but he still believes they exist.
That doesn't mean it was originally a Hebrew book.
It’s a book of the Bible. The God of the Bible - Yahweh - is Job’s God. There is no God besides Job’s God. Everything else is idols.
Idols exist. The demons are behind them.
I watched it. I really don't like when people answer questions with a question. "What do you mean by God?" Everyone in that room knows what he means, and he never did answer the question the man asked.
Similar threads
