Jesus is God

[PS95]

This is what YOU stated in post 383:

Having been raised a Jw I have a TON more--
Reconcile the above and you will have your answer.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

After all of that do I generally say Jesus is God. No, I generally say Jesus is the Son of God. Why? Jesus (flesh) was God and man.


HOW was I supposed to know your questions were rhetorical on a thread that is about Jesus not being Divine??
I even replied to a different post of yours asking you to be very clear since this is not a topic I enjoy debating.

GG,
It's really very simple. At the end of each sentence are bible verses that clear it all up! You obviously ignored all of those. It's not the best idea to half read posts and then attack people. At least know why you are attacking.

And here is what begotten means.....
It's from CHATGPT4 but a good meaning.

• Eternal Generation:
  Jesus is "eternally begotten" of the Father, an eternal relationship of shared divine essence, rather than a temporal event or a creation.
• Unique Sonship:
  The Greek word translated as "begotten" is monogenes, which emphasizes the Son's unique, unparalleled nature as the single instance of God's kind, unique within his class.
• "Begotten, Not Made":
  This key phrase from the Nicene Creed highlights that Jesus is not a creature created by God but is of the same nature as the Father.

The second bullet is the accepted definition....
It just means that Jesus is unique...

Not begotten as some understand it as being born...like a baby.
(although it is used this way today).

And notice how a Creed explains begotten...
which is what Creeds do...
they explain scripture.

I thought you had something new since you said it was our language that was the problem. Nothing there is new.
I understand -- monogenés better than you do.
its a Greek adjective consisting of two parts, μονο (mono) and γενης (genes)
The first part of the word-- it's from the Greek word μονον (monon) an adverb meaning "only".
That's not the issue- It's the second part--
The traditional view is that γενης (genes) is to be derived from the Greek verb γενναω (‘to beget’), so that μονογενης (monogenes) means only begotten. BUT---
A more recent view is that γενης is derived from γενος, meaning ‘class’, ‘sort’, ‘kind’, so that μονογενης must mean "one of a kind" or "unique"’. In support of this later view, some say that γενος has only a single ν (the Greek letter pronounced- nu), so does μονογενης, while γενναω has two ν's.
So which is right? Makes no real difference. It will always mean what it means no matter what.
You are using only MONO. That's half of the word. That actually hurts your position and I can explain that to you at some point if you want.
If you accept what the whole word really does mean it is far better than saying it only means unique. It actually supports the trinity IF you understand a few passages in John the way I do-- I only know several people who do. Most people just skip over those! It actually makes it airtight IMO. BUT I still have a problem with the phrase "eternally begotten". It is illogical and opposing. That is not to say I don't accept the trinity. Maybe I am not being clear enough for you. I wish there was a place on here to speak without interruptions from Uni's. I find that so annoying- we ought to have a place to go.

 

[Muna]

I don't get the whole "eternally begotten" word salad explanation of things myself. I heard that was made up to defeat some sort of heresy, and rather than doing that by the word of God they made some stuff up and tossed it together and became that thing.

 

[MonoBiblical]

GG,
It's really very simple. At the end of each sentence are bible verses that clear it all up! You obviously ignored all of those. It's not the best idea to half read posts and then attack people. At least know why you are attacking.




If one must accept the oxymoronic phrase "eternally begotten" or not be a Christian, then WHO exactly is the one judging, me or you?
Ever read John's epistles? Son of God is what is required. The Father & the Son. Nowhere do the scriptures say I must believe anything about being eternally begotten.
There are countless Christians who do not accept "eternally begotten." It is not biblical. Yes, It changes the definition of the Nicene trinity but there is still a trinity without that. You should not judge people for rejecting a man made phrase.
Yes,I was raised jw and not until my 30's did I fully tackle this subject. I know far more about it than most- every in and out of it.. I spent many years on this one subject alone.
. Having you tell me that I must accept all of a creed's words, or I am not a Christian is really something else and you get a medal for being the first! You can judge me as not a Christian -fine by me. I could spin your head in half an hour stomping a Jw over the divinity of Jesus. I can't be bothered- because unlike you I fully understand where they are in their thinking and in their mind control and you can blab about this now until eternity and they will not change their minds. You can not teach this. They don't have Christ. It will never go anywhere. Give them Christ. Give them Christ. That's where they are empty!
No one here listens- they have no clue what it's like in the mind of a Jw. They keep bickering day in and day out about the trinity and hellfire with Jws and can't SEE they can't hear you--- they need Christ!.

Eternally begotten meant permanently begun. The Arians believed all could become permanently begun, and sons of God. Hence, Arius did not have a high view of the messiah.

I understand -- monogenés better than you do.
its a Greek adjective consisting of two parts, μονο (mono) and γενης (genes)
The first part of the word-- it's from the Greek word μονον (monon) an adverb meaning "only".
That's not the issue- It's the second part--
The traditional view is that γενης (genes) is to be derived from the Greek verb γενναω (‘to beget’), so that μονογενης (monogenes) means only begotten. BUT---
A more recent view is that γενης is derived from γενος, meaning ‘class’, ‘sort’, ‘kind’, so that μονογενης must mean "one of a kind" or "unique"’. In support of this later view, some say that γενος has only a single ν (the Greek letter pronounced- nu), so does μονογενης, while γενναω has two ν's.
So which is right? Makes no real difference. It will always mean what it means no matter what.
You are using only MONO. That's half of the word.
Good night.

MONOS means unique at least. Sola and Monos do not have the meaning lone. Jesus was uniquely begun and so was Adam.

 

[PS95]

Eternally begotten meant permanently begun. The Arians believed all could become permanently begun, and sons of God. Hence, Arius did not have a high view of the messiah.



MONOS means unique at least. Sola and Monos do not have the meaning lone. Jesus was uniquely begun and so was Adam.

Where did that come from? Did you even read what I wrote? Good grief this place is nuts.

 

[HealthyShape]

If you want false doctrine, use the NIV

It's choked full of false doctrine!

Like what?

 

[HealthyShape]

I don't get the whole "eternally begotten" word salad explanation of things myself. I heard that was made up to defeat some sort of heresy, and rather than doing that by the word of God they made some stuff up and tossed it together and became that thing.

Eternally means before the time began. Always existing.

Begotten means not created.

 

[Muna]

Eternally means before the time began. Always existing.

Begotten means not created.

That sure does not help me any, I believe the Word always existed, why add the begotten or the not created into His preexistence? Or before the Word was made flesh (or even begat by Mary)? We know he was begotton after he died in the flesh, being begotten from the dead, but there is somehow this other begotten in eternity somewheres? Which is somehow before he was both begotten from the dead and before he made flesh?

Although the definition of begotten does not state" it means not created", although I know you might mean, we believe he was begotten not created/made , even though it says the Word was made flesh being the "only begotten" of the Father. Even though I am aware that some do not like the word made there either and use the word "become" which is synomous in the definition itself.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

As far as the words we can or cannot use, for example created also

It says we are to put on Christ right?

Gal 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Again, put on the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Even as we put on the new man

Ephes 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And have put on the new man

Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

The word created is in the last two verses

 

[HealthyShape]

That sure does not help me any, I believe the Word always existed, why add the begotten or the not created into His preexistence?

Because that is what the Bible says.

Hebrews 1:5:

• "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son'?"

 

[Muna]

Because that is what the Bible says.

1. Hebrews 1:5:
   • "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son'?"
2. Hebrews 5:5:
   • "So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you';"

What makes you think I missed those verses, I posted one of them

 

[Muna]

Okay, I saw what you did there you are applying the begotten there to before he made flesh and not to his being begotten from the dead

 

[HealthyShape]

Okay, I saw what you did there you are applying the begotten there to before he made flesh and not to his being begotten from the dead

Begotten meaning before the ages. It does not mean incarnation nor resurrection.

You have it even in the first verse you posted:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John is not talking about His body, but about His divine status.

 

[Muna]

Begotten meaning before the ages. It does not mean incarnation nor resurrection.

You have it even in the first verse you posted:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John is not talking about His body, but about His divine status.

God had to fulfill this, this is speaking of his resurection

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[Muna]

Begotten meaning before the ages. It does not mean incarnation nor resurrection.

You have it even in the first verse you posted:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John is not talking about His body, but about His divine status.

The word only begotten there is an adjective, in my verse its a verb, different things

 

[HealthyShape]

The word only begotten there is an adjective, in my verse its a verb, different things

We are talking about what "eternally begotten" means, are we not?

It means that Jesus is begotten of the Father before all ages. He is not made, created. He is begotten. I am not sure what you mean by "its a verb".

 

[Muna]

We are talking about what "eternally begotten" means, are we not?

It means that Jesus is begotten of the Father before all ages. He is not made, created. He is begotten. I am not sure what you mean by "its a verb".

Its a made up word, where is it in scripture is what I was asking about.
When was Jesus begotten of the Father in "eternity" , like what does that even mean?

 

[HealthyShape]

Its a made up word, where is it in scripture is what I was asking about.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When was Jesus begotten of the Father in "eternity" , like what does that even mean?

It means before the time began.

 

[Muna]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


It means before the time began.

Show me begotten used for Jesus throughout the NT, its not talking about that at all

 

[HealthyShape]

Show me begotten used for Jesus throughout the NT, its not talking about that at all

John is in the NT.

 

[Muna]

John is in the NT.

Thats not what I mean, I think me and you will miss one another

 

[HealthyShape]

Show me begotten used for Jesus throughout the NT, its not talking about that at all

...this the love of God has been revealed among us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world...
1 J 4:9

No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known
J 1:18

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son
J 3:16