Jesus is God

[Muna]

...this the love of God has been revealed among us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world...
1 J 4:9

No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known
J 1:18

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son
J 3:16

Right, I havent any issues with the scriptures

 

[HealthyShape]

Right, I havent any issues with the scriptures

Well, you ask for Scriptures and then you say you have no issues with them.

 

[Muna]

Well, you ask for Scriptures and then you say you have no issues with them.

Thank you for those, I dont have an issue with the scriptures but understanding the whole eternally begotten thing.

 

[HealthyShape]

Thank you for those, I dont have an issue with the scriptures but understanding the whole eternally begotten thing.

It is a very simple thing. Eternally means before all ages and begotten means "not made" or "not created".

Jesus is not a creation of Father, but His only Son and having the same nature.

 

[Muna]

It is a very simple thing. Eternally means before all ages and begotten means "not made" or "not created".

Jesus is not a creation of Father, but His only Son and having the same nature.

Thanks

 

[rebuilder 454]

That the Greek article is misrendered as definite, and there is an assumption mass nounage really hurts the bible in every English translation. For every passage used to prove the deityhood of the messiah, there are 3 that contradict the observation. There are major deficencies in logic. E.g. in Calvinism, God has to be justified, as if he weren't just to begin with.

The contradiction of your mind is your downfall.

The plurality of God is vivid and anyone can see it, as you must but defy.

That is the difference.

And no, you have no idea of Greek or grammer.

Like I posted earlier , at Robinson, A GREEK EXPERT, threatened watchtower to remove his name in the footnotes of John, where they pervertd Jon's gospel with the wording "a god"

Just plain ridiculous and appalling that the Watchtower cult resorts to twisting Gods word....for their limited mental deficit in their mental correction of God himself.

BTW...no doubt the Greek of Watchtower is the Alexandrian text that the church fathers threw out for being corrupt.

So your starting place in Watchtower corrupted teaching is a huge hurdle to ovrrcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

He did believe Jesus to be the Most High. He even said 2 gods at time.

Is the Most High God Almighty, the One True God and creator of the universe?

 

[MonoBiblical]

The contradiction of your mind is your downfall.

The plurality of God is vivid and anyone can see it, as you must but defy.

That is the difference.

No, it isn't. You want a pantheistic god present in every atomic element. I know better.

So your starting place in Watchtower corrupted teaching is a huge hurdle to ovrrcome.

Didn't I say I am not a JW? Yet I don't care about them or their BS. They think they can help people through globalism and belief without real action.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Is the Most High God Almighty, the One True God and creator of the universe?

Yes, he is the authenticated one. There are other gods, but they are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

And I misstated it. Justin Martyr did not believe Jesus was the most high, but that there were 2 gods.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Where did that come from? Did you even read what I wrote? Good grief this place is nuts.

Sola and Monos mean unique not one or alone. That was my only point.

 

[Davy]

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-illustration/spirit-emerges-space-soul-aura-600nw-1378730588.jpg

Is this the sort of cartoon you’re envisioning?

No, that is obviously what YOU are envisioning.

You were given previous Old Testament examples of what the spirit body appear like? Why have you not paid attention to those Scriptures, or why haven't you BELIEVED those Scriptures as written??

Don't you know any Old Testament examples of the real spirit body appearing on earth with the image of man?

 

[GodsGrace]

GG,
It's really very simple. At the end of each sentence are bible verses that clear it all up! You obviously ignored all of those. It's not the best idea to half read posts and then attack people. At least know why you are attacking.

It seemed like you were posting conflicting verses.
I don't half read posts....
I thought you were saying that you're a JW.
I don't read each and every post on a thread so I don't really know what you believe..
I only know what you write to ME.

I thought you had something new since you said it was our language that was the problem. Nothing there is new.
I understand -- monogenés better than you do.

This makes me happy.
No problem for me.

its a Greek adjective consisting of two parts, μονο (mono) and γενης (genes)
The first part of the word-- it's from the Greek word μονον (monon) an adverb meaning "only".
That's not the issue- It's the second part--
The traditional view is that γενης (genes) is to be derived from the Greek verb γενναω (‘to beget’), so that μονογενης (monogenes) means only begotten. BUT---
A more recent view is that γενης is derived from γενος, meaning ‘class’, ‘sort’, ‘kind’, so that μονογενης must mean "one of a kind" or "unique"’.

Right.
And it meant unique even back at the beginning.
None of the ECFs believed Jesus was created....

In support of this later view, some say that γενος has only a single ν (the Greek letter pronounced- nu), so does μονογενης, while γενναω has two ν's.
So which is right? Makes no real difference. It will always mean what it means no matter what.

Right.
Even though I don't know Greek (Koine or otherwise).

You are using only MONO. That's half of the word. That actually hurts your position and I can explain that to you at some point if you want.

No. I don't only know MONO. You're assuming this.

If you accept what the whole word really does mean it is far better than saying it only means unique. It actually supports the trinity IF you understand a few passages in John the way I do-- I only know several people who do.

Perhaps you'd care to share your knowledge?

Most people just skip over those! It actually makes it airtight IMO. BUT I still have a problem with the phrase "eternally begotten".

I DID say that I also have a problem with the phrase.

It is illogical and opposing. That is not to say I don't accept the trinity. Maybe I am not being clear enough for you. I wish there was a place on here to speak without interruptions from Uni's. I find that so annoying- we ought to have a place to go.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood and believed you to be a JW.

And, I can't find your post now..but you stated to me that I believe a person has to understand what begotten means to be a Christian.
No. I've NEVER stated this.
In fact, discussion about this word is totally a waste of time.

What I state is this:
A person is free to believe whatever he wishes to believe...
but to have the word CHRISTIAN under his name,,,he must adhere to Christian beliefs.
I feel strongly about this and repeat it many times on all forums.

This is not saying that non-christians cannot be saved...
but only that definite beliefs allow one to be defined as Christian.
If those beliefs are not present...then how could one possibly define themselves as Christian???

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I am not. You simply have been listening to FALSE DOCTRINES OF MEN instead of the actual written Bible Scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul showed that the TYPE body of the future resurrection, AND CHANGE at the "last trump", is to a SPIRITUAL BODY. Got that? A "spiritual body"!

How is it that you have in yourself listed as a Christian, and you are not familiar with the following Bible Scripture?

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, 'The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.'

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Why waste time on posters such as the one you're writing to?
I absolutely agree that these persons are NOT Christian (as you've alluded to).

 

[Davy]

Why waste time on posters such as the one you're writing to?
I absolutely agree that these persons are NOT Christian (as you've alluded to).

It's so that others may learn, and hopefully drive them into God's written Word to study for themselves, instead of just believing whatever man says, including what I say.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, he is the authenticated one. There are other gods, but they are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

And I misstated it. Justin Martyr did not believe Jesus was the most high, but that there were 2 gods.

You do this Mono.
You make statements but do not post sources.

So, no reply from me since what you do is post YOUR OPINION.

I'm not interested in your opinion.

NO ONE ever believed that there are 2 Gods.
Some,,,even Jews, believed that there are 2 POWERS in heaven...
One of these "powers" is Jesus.

ONE GOD....a being.
THREE persons in the ONE GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's so that others may learn, and hopefully drive them into God's written Word to study for themselves, instead of just believing whatever man says, including what I say.

OK.
I post for this reason too.
But I keep it limited to those that have some semblance of seriousness about such an important topic.

 

[Davy]

OK.
I post for this reason too.
But I keep it limited to those that have some semblance of seriousness about such an important topic.

That's good, and it shows you have more patience than I have.

 

[MonoBiblical]

You do this Mono.
You make statements but do not post sources.

So, no reply from me since what you do is post YOUR OPINION.

I'm not interested in your opinion.

NO ONE ever believed that there are 2 Gods.
Some,,,even Jews, believed that there are 2 POWERS in heaven...
One of these "powers" is Jesus.

ONE GOD....a being.
THREE persons in the ONE GOD.

Justin Martyr On The Logos

There is an intensification of Logos christology among the early apologists especially with Justin Martyr. Justin makes no explicit mention of the Fourth

www.patheos.com

Justin argues that the Logos is “another God and Lord under the Creator of all things, who is also called an Angel, because he proclaims to man whatever the Creator of the world— above whom there is no other God— wishes to reveal to them” (Dial. 56.4; cf. 55.1; 61.1; 128.4; 129.4). This angel “called God, is distinct from God, the Creator; distinct, that is, in number, but not in mind” (Dial. 56.11). A God beneath God is supported by way of citations to Ps 45:6-7 and 110:1 (Dial. 56.14). Justin identifies God with the Angel of the Lord, this Angel with the pre-incarnate Christ, who appeared to Moses in the fire (Dial. 57-60; 127.4; 1 Apol. 62.3-4; 63.7-8, 17).[8]

 

[PS95]

Eternally begotten meant permanently begun. The Arians believed all could become permanently begun, and sons of God. Hence, Arius did not have a high view of the messiah.



MONOS means unique at least. Sola and Monos do not have the meaning lone. Jesus was uniquely begun and so was Adam.

Yes, he is the authenticated one. There are other gods, but they are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

And I misstated it. Justin Martyr did not believe Jesus was the most high, but that there were 2 gods.

there are other gods who are false gods- not the creator- & some called gods who also are not the creator. We can NOT say that about the Word. NOTHING was created without HIM.
Justin Martyr certainly did identify the Son as YHWH. He also saw separateness. He said that . and -- also as begotten, messenger, God, etc.. Fire from Fire- Justin is the EFC that lays out much of what is the trinity today. He doesn't do it all in one spot. Much of it is in Trypho. He was obviously just as confused as to how to sew it all up as one God as we can be today-- but it's all there in a bit of a basic blueprint along with the scriptures and what he had been taught. The trinity creed was a progression. I don't have a problem with that. It's good to try to define what we believe as truth for sake of unity and against those who seek to divide us.

 

[PS95]

Justin Martyr On The Logos

There is an intensification of Logos christology among the early apologists especially with Justin Martyr. Justin makes no explicit mention of the Fourth

www.patheos.com

Justin argues that the Logos is “another God and Lord under the Creator of all things, who is also called an Angel, because he proclaims to man whatever the Creator of the world— above whom there is no other God— wishes to reveal to them” (Dial. 56.4; cf. 55.1; 61.1; 128.4; 129.4). This angel “called God, is distinct from God, the Creator; distinct, that is, in number, but not in mind” (Dial. 56.11). A God beneath God is supported by way of citations to Ps 45:6-7 and 110:1 (Dial. 56.14). Justin identifies God with the Angel of the Lord, this Angel with the pre-incarnate Christ, who appeared to Moses in the fire (Dial. 57-60; 127.4; 1 Apol. 62.3-4; 63.7-8, 17).[8]

. He did say two gods but he also said the Son was called Lord of Hosts. He was making a distinction between persons (distinct in number) of Father and Son by saying 2 gods... otherwise he would not have called the Son, Lord of Hosts. He understood like we do that the Son is all of those things.. messenger, Lord of Hosts etc.
What he was NOT saying is that the son was an angel aka created being- He says begotten fire from fire. He only makes his distinction btwn begotten and unbegotten- This is the trinity