IS THE RAPTURE FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

[IndianaRob]

Look at the verse...................[Mat 26:64 KJV] 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
He was speaking only to the high priest

Matthew 26:64 (KJV) grammatically.

“Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

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Step 1: Identify the pronoun​

• “Ye” = second person plural pronoun in Early Modern English.
• Modern equivalent = “you all”.

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Step 2: Identify the antecedent​

• Grammatically, “ye” refers to the people being addressed by Jesus in the sentence.
• The sentence has two layers:
  1. “Thou hast said” → Jesus is speaking to the high priest (singular: thou).
  2. “I say unto you… ye shall see…” → Jesus shifts to address a group (plural: ye).

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Step 3: Who is included in “ye”?​

• English grammar only:
  • “Ye” = plural subject of “shall see”.
  • Grammatically, it cannot refer to a single person (“thou”).
  • Therefore, it refers to all present who are included in Jesus’ address, not just the high priest.

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Conclusion​

• “Ye” = plural audience being addressed by Jesus.
• Grammatically, it cannot refer only to the high priest, even if he was the immediate interlocutor.

 

[HealthyShape]

@Doug you have made 5 or so replies about the same thing, so I will react only once, to make it readable:

The KJV does not say anything much different from NIV or any other mainstream translation. "Ye" is old English plural. Jesus was speaking generally to Sanhedrin.

I would recommend to not read the KJV, its language confuses people and is based upon worse underlying texts than we have today.

 

[HealthyShape]

No idea what you are seeing here

Jesus was saying to his disciples that He would return before the disciples can go to all the towns in Israel.

 

[Doug]

Jesus was saying to his disciples that He would return before the disciples can go to all the towns in Israel.

That's not what Jesus was saying..........................[Mat 10:23 KJV] 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was telling them when persecuted in one city to go to another, but they would not be able to go unto all the cities of Israel until he returned Jesus's return was not conditional upon them not going to all the cities. Jesus did not say he would return before they were done,

 

[Doug]

@Doug you have made 5 or so replies about the same thing, so I will react only once, to make it readable:

The KJV does not say anything much different from NIV or any other mainstream translation. "Ye" is old English plural. Jesus was speaking generally to Sanhedrin.

I would recommend to not read the KJV, its language confuses people and is based upon worse underlying texts than we have today.

Ye was able to convey more than one person
Our you doesnt express singular or plural so we would have to say you all/all of you
Your Bible translation wrongly keeps you singular by not saying you all

 

[HealthyShape]

That's not what Jesus was saying..........................[Mat 10:23 KJV] 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was telling them when persecuted in one city to go to another, but they would not be able to go unto all the cities of Israel until he returned Jesus's return was not conditional upon them not going to all the cities. Jesus did not say he would return before they were done,

I do not understand your post. You quoted the verse and then you said it does not say what it says.

 

[HealthyShape]

Ye was able to convey more than one person
Our you doesnt express singular or plural so we would have to say you all/all of you
Your Bible translation wrongly keeps you singular by not saying you all

I do not understand what you are saying. What "my" Bible translation wrongly keeps it singular?

You mean this?

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64

Where do you see anything singular, there? And why are we even talking about if it is singular or plural, it does not change the return time frame. None of them has been living for 2,000 years.

 

[Doug]

I do not understand what you are saying. What "my" Bible translation wrongly keeps it singular?

You mean this?

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64

Where do you see anything singular, there? And why are we even talking about if it is singular or plural, it does not change the return time frame. None of them has been living for 2,000 years.

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64
[Mat 26:64 KJV] 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

In the verse you quoted I underlined "from now on YOU" you singular not ye plural
Besides that "Isay to you all" is not found in the KJV

I do not understand your post. You quoted the verse and then you said it does not say what it says.

I didnt say he didnt say it I was trying to explain what he meant.
You are saying he should have returned and I dont see that.
He was only saying that whenever he returns they would not have gone to all the cities of Israel

Why do you find it necessary to find error in all these verses?

 

[HealthyShape]

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64
[Mat 26:64 KJV] 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

In the verse you quoted I underlined "from now on YOU" you singular not ye plural

"You" in English is both singular and plural, so I do not understand your point.

Besides that "Isay to you all" is not found in the KJV

That is the way in which NIV communicates the plurality.

He was only saying that whenever he returns they would not have gone to all the cities of Israel

I still do not understand what you are saying. Or, rather, I do not see why do you think it is different from what I am saying.

Why do you find it necessary to find error in all these verses?

What error in these verses are you talking about? I did not say there is an error in them.

 

[Doug]

"You" in English is both singular and plural, so I do not understand your point.

This discussion cant be dealt with piecemeal in the limitations of a forum
I appreciate your courtesy

 

[KUWN]

The Old Testament mentions the righteous dead being bodily resurrected out of their graves.

•Isaiah 26:19 - "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

•Job 14:13-15 - "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." This "call" was the same "voice of the Son of God" in John 5:25-29 which Christ said was going to wake the dead. And the "change" in Job is the same as that "change" for the mortal remains of all the dead saints mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

The Old Testament mentions the gathering of the resurrected saints together at Christ's coming.

•Genesis 49:10 - "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet UNTIL Shiloh come, and to Him shall the gathering of the people be." Jacob's prophecy of "Shiloh" is about Christ Jesus, telling his sons that Judah would maintain the right to rule and govern among the 12 tribes UNTIL Christ Jesus came and gathered His people, the resurrected saints. These tribal distinctions disappeared with the destruction of the temple in AD 70, with Judah exercising that God-given right of dominance over the other tribes up to that point (as in Zechariah 12:4-7). This "gathering of the people" predicted by Jacob in Genesis 49:10 is the same as the 2 Thess. 2 "our gathering together unto Him".

Joseph knew very well what this Genesis 49:10 prediction of his father meant, which is why he later requested in faith that his bones be taken back to Hebron and buried with his father in the cave of Machpelah. He wanted to be in the same location as his father when the gathering together of the people of God in a resurrection would occur.

But the Old Testament never mentions any such thing as the living believers who had never died expecting to be translated so that they did not have to pass through the physical death process. This is the typical misunderstanding of what the rapture includes, and it is NOT how the Scriptures all describe the believers being gathered together and taken to heaven with Christ.

The problem with this explanation is that it takes passages from two different dispensations/ages and puts them together. Paul in 2 Thess 2 is written to the new elect people of God (i.e. the Church) after God had removed the Jews from their elect status as described in Rom 9-11. You can't have two elect groups in the same age/dispensation. That is why God laid aside the Jews until the final 7 years of the Jewish Dispensation, which was replaced (No, I don't believe in Replacement Theology) by the Church. Once the Church is removed, the Jews can finish their final 7 years to the return of Christ with his Bride.

 

[Doug]

What error in these verses are you talking about? I did not say there is an error in them.

Sorry I lost track of the conversation. You didn't say they were in error. You were only using those verses to show how you disagreed,

 

[HealthyShape]

Sorry I lost track of the conversation. You didn't say they were in error. You were only using those verses to show how you disagreed,

I may be mistaken, but I think it began with me reacting to "will we stick to the words of Jesus or not" - I said "If we did that, we would need to accept that He returned in the first century" or something like that.

Because the whole New Testament (not just the words of Jesus) teaches the second coming in the 1st century - also the beast, the Antichrist, the great tribulation etc. Also, the end of the world (or "ages") or the "last days", whatever they meant by that.

 

[quietthinker]

IS THE RUPTURE FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?​

I'm convinced of it otherwise Jesus would not have come to show us the character of his Father.

 

[Doug]

I may be mistaken, but I think it began with me reacting to "will we stick to the words of Jesus or not" - I said "If we did that, we would need to accept that He returned in the first century" or something like that.

Because the whole New Testament (not just the words of Jesus) teaches the second coming in the 1st century - also the beast, the Antichrist, the great tribulation etc. Also, the end of the world (or "ages") or the "last days", whatever they meant by that.

So am I understanding correctly that your position is that Jesus has already returned?

 

[HealthyShape]

So am I understanding correctly that your position is that Jesus has already returned?

According to the New Testament, yes. If He did not, the New Testament got it wrong and our view of biblical inspiration/infallibility must take it into consideration.

I think both options are more honest than trying to dance around the issue and invent far-fetched reinterpretations or ignoring the texts.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
J 14:3 (Jesus to His apostles)

 

[Bladerunner]

[1Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV] 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

The written saying Paul was referencing is found in Isaiah below.

[Isaiah 25:8 KJV] 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 above is speaking of the rapture.

The rapture was said to be a mystery, as seen below.

[1Corinthians 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 was a hidden mystery that needed to be revealed by God, and Paul was enabled to reveal it here in 1 Corinthians..

If the rapture is indeed a mystery, then it could not be found in Isaiah.

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

The mystery of the Rapture was to Jewish and Gentile believers and no so much the rapture (Harpozo).

1. Enoch was raptured, according to Genesis 5:24, and confirmed by Hebrews 11:5.
2. Elijah was taken up in 2 Kings 2:11.
3. Jesus Himself, after He was physically resurrected, and after He was seen alive, walking, talking and eating, being touched and handled, He Himself was taken up in a moment of glory (Acts 1:9–10).
4. Phillip was carried away in Acts 8:39.
5. Paul was taken up to the Third Heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2.
6. John was caught up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1..........
7. The Seventh Rapture; taken or 'caught up' to Heaven will be the Church, divine fulfillment.

 

[David in NJ]

The mystery of the Rapture was to Jewish and Gentile believers and no so much the rapture (Harpozo).

1. Enoch was raptured, according to Genesis 5:24, and confirmed by Hebrews 11:5.
2. Elijah was taken up in 2 Kings 2:11.
3. Jesus Himself, after He was physically resurrected, and after He was seen alive, walking, talking and eating, being touched and handled, He Himself was taken up in a moment of glory (Acts 1:9–10).
4. Phillip was carried away in Acts 8:39.
5. Paul was taken up to the Third Heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2.
6. John was caught up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1..........
7. The Seventh Rapture; taken or 'caught up' to Heaven will be the Church, divine fulfillment.

the promised rapture is 100% TRUTH just as you pointed out - thank you

The rapture is dependent upon the promise and words of CHRIST.

When did CHRIST promise/prophecy the rapture will occur?

 

[Doug]

The mystery of the Rapture was to Jewish and Gentile believers and no so much the rapture (Harpozo).

1. Enoch was raptured, according to Genesis 5:24, and confirmed by Hebrews 11:5.
2. Elijah was taken up in 2 Kings 2:11.
3. Jesus Himself, after He was physically resurrected, and after He was seen alive, walking, talking and eating, being touched and handled, He Himself was taken up in a moment of glory (Acts 1:9–10).
4. Phillip was carried away in Acts 8:39.
5. Paul was taken up to the Third Heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2.
6. John was caught up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1..........
7. The Seventh Rapture; taken or 'caught up' to Heaven will be the Church, divine fulfillment.

[1Co 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

The rapture is a mystery not found elsewhere in scripture and ONLY involves the body of Christ

 

[Bladerunner]

the promised rapture is 100% TRUTH just as you pointed out - thank you

The rapture is dependent upon the promise and words of CHRIST.

When did CHRIST promise/prophecy the rapture will occur?

The Rapture is imminent, meaning it does not have to have any other event to happen prior to its beginning. If it does not happen before a true believer dies, the true believer in death is with Jesus in Heaven awaiting the Rapture in order to be reuinited . Most people don't understand this. When you die, your soul rests with Jesus in Heaven awaiting the Rapture to happen. Why would a person's soul be awaiting for the Rapture to happen? Simple, it is necessary for the body (container of the soul/spirit) to be reunited with the Soul/Spirit in order to be transfigured for Heavenly life. When the Rapture happens, there will be many who are still alive at that time of this event. Before they are lifted into the clouds to be translated into their heavenly body, the bodies of the dead will arise first to be joined with the Soul/Spirit. These that are affected by this event are the members of Jesus' Church He built from scratch in the first century (Acts 1,2). The members, both Jew and Gentile will transfigured to bodies like that of Jesus Christ "for we shall see Him as He is". (1 John 3:2)

Our Home will be Heavenly and will be with Him at all the times...WHY? for the Holy Spirit (God himself) shall be within us eternally. We see this in the Throne room scene (Rev 4,5) where the 24 elders represent the Church...'Us'. We are told here we are to become in (Rev 5:9-10). This of course is another Bible study. As you can see the Rapture is not for all people who are to be saved but for the Church only.

It is noted that while the Rapture is imminent (could happen at any time) there are many prophecies that can only happen after the restrainer is removed from the earth. Thus the Tribulation will only happen after the Last member of the church is saved and the church members and the the restrainer within them (Holy Spirit) is removed from the earth.

Pray always the Rapture happens today but do not despair if it does not for what ever happens, if you are a "true Believer" you will be with Jesus in the end.