Why did our Redeemer need to be both God and Man?

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Sabé

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He didn't.

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus as high priest:- The author outlines the qualifications of Jesus for this role by first examining the office and its nature as described in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then demonstrating how Jesus perfectly fulfills those same requirements.

If you can show me anywhere in the OT or NT that Christ was God or had to be God - well good luck!

"Blessed are you among all women" (Lk. 1:42)

This blessing, which we say poorly or do not say at all, to Her Who with Her sacrifice began the Redemption, continually resounds in Heaven, pronounced with infinite love by the Trinity, with inflamed charity by those saved by their sacrifice, and by the angelic choirs. All paradise blesses Mary, the masterwork of universal Creation and Divine Mercy.

Even if all the Father's work to create the Earth from nothing had served only to receive Mary, the work of Creation would have had its reason for being, for the perfection of this Creature is such that it is testimony not only of the wisdom and power, but also of the love with which God created the world.

Since the earthly creation has instead yielded Adam and Adam's race, Mary witnesses to the merciful superlove of God towards man, for through Mary, Mother of the Redeemer, God has worked the salvation of the human race. Jesus is the Christ because Mary conceived Him and gave Him to the World.

Some will say that as God Jesus could have overcome the need to take flesh in a woman's womb. He could do all, it's true. But reflect on the law of order and goodness which lies in His annihilation in mortal clothing.

The sin committed by man had to be expiated by man and not by the non-incarnate divinity. How could the Divinity, incorporeal Spirit, redeem the sins of the flesh with the sacrifice of Itself? It was, then, necessary that God should pay for the sins of flesh and blood with the agony of an innocent Flesh and Blood, born of an innocent woman.

His mind, His feeling, and His Spirit would have suffered for our sins in mind, feeling, and spirit. But to be the Redemption of all forms of concupiscence inoculated into Adam and his descendants by the Tempter, the One Immolated for them all had to be endowed with a nature like ours, made worthy of being given as a ransom to God by the Divinity hidden in it, like a gem of infinite supernatural value hidden under common, natural clothing.

God is order, and God does not violate or do violence to order, except in very exceptional cases, judged useful by His intelligence. Such was not the case with His Redemption.

He had not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil.
No. With a total sacrifice He had to make reparation for Sin and all the sins of all mankind, give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.


His sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He was coming to bring the Law.


If His humanity had not existed, how could we—His poor brothers and sisters, who labor to have faith in Him, who lived for thirty-three years on the earth, a Man among men—have believed? And, how could He appear, already an adult, to hostile or ignorant peoples, making them convinced of His nature and His doctrine? He would then have appeared, in the eyes of the world, as a spirit Who had taken on a human likeness, but not as a man who was born and died, shedding real blood through the wounds of a real flesh—as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.

Isn't it sweeter for us to think that He is really our brother, with the destiny of creatures who are born, live, suffer, and die, than to conceive of Him as a spirit superior to the exigencies of humanity?

It was necessary, then, for a woman to give birth to Him according to the flesh, after having conceived Him above the flesh, for from no marriage of creatures, no matter how holy they were, could the God-Man be conceived, but only from a wedding of Purity and Love, the Spirit and the Virgin, created without stain so as to be the matrix for the flesh of a God, the Virgin the thought of Whom was God's joy, since before time existed, the Virgin in Whom there is a compendium of the Fathers creative perfection, the joy of Heaven, the salvation of the Earth, the most beautiful flower of Creation of all the flowers of the Universe, a living star before whom all the suns created by the Father seem dull.
 

Hiddenthings

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"Blessed are you among all women" (Lk. 1:42)

This blessing, which we say poorly or do not say at all, to Her Who with Her sacrifice began the Redemption, continually resounds in Heaven, pronounced with infinite love by the Trinity, with inflamed charity by those saved by their sacrifice, and by the angelic choirs. All paradise blesses Mary, the masterwork of universal Creation and Divine Mercy.

Even if all the Father's work to create the Earth from nothing had served only to receive Mary, the work of Creation would have had its reason for being, for the perfection of this Creature is such that it is testimony not only of the wisdom and power, but also of the love with which God created the world.

Since the earthly creation has instead yielded Adam and Adam's race, Mary witnesses to the merciful superlove of God towards man, for through Mary, Mother of the Redeemer, God has worked the salvation of the human race. Jesus is the Christ because Mary conceived Him and gave Him to the World.

Some will say that as God Jesus could have overcome the need to take flesh in a woman's womb. He could do all, it's true. But reflect on the law of order and goodness which lies in His annihilation in mortal clothing.

The sin committed by man had to be expiated by man and not by the non-incarnate divinity. How could the Divinity, incorporeal Spirit, redeem the sins of the flesh with the sacrifice of Itself? It was, then, necessary that God should pay for the sins of flesh and blood with the agony of an innocent Flesh and Blood, born of an innocent woman.

His mind, His feeling, and His Spirit would have suffered for our sins in mind, feeling, and spirit. But to be the Redemption of all forms of concupiscence inoculated into Adam and his descendants by the Tempter, the One Immolated for them all had to be endowed with a nature like ours, made worthy of being given as a ransom to God by the Divinity hidden in it, like a gem of infinite supernatural value hidden under common, natural clothing.

God is order, and God does not violate or do violence to order, except in very exceptional cases, judged useful by His intelligence. Such was not the case with His Redemption.

He had not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil.
No. With a total sacrifice He had to make reparation for Sin and all the sins of all mankind, give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.


His sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He was coming to bring the Law.

If His humanity had not existed, how could we—His poor brothers and sisters, who labor to have faith in Him, who lived for thirty-three years on the earth, a Man among men—have believed? And, how could He appear, already an adult, to hostile or ignorant peoples, making them convinced of His nature and His doctrine? He would then have appeared, in the eyes of the world, as a spirit Who had taken on a human likeness, but not as a man who was born and died, shedding real blood through the wounds of a real flesh—as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.

Isn't it sweeter for us to think that He is really our brother, with the destiny of creatures who are born, live, suffer, and die, than to conceive of Him as a spirit superior to the exigencies of humanity?

It was necessary, then, for a woman to give birth to Him according to the flesh, after having conceived Him above the flesh, for from no marriage of creatures, no matter how holy they were, could the God-Man be conceived, but only from a wedding of Purity and Love, the Spirit and the Virgin, created without stain so as to be the matrix for the flesh of a God, the Virgin the thought of Whom was God's joy, since before time existed, the Virgin in Whom there is a compendium of the Fathers creative perfection, the joy of Heaven, the salvation of the Earth, the most beautiful flower of Creation of all the flowers of the Universe, a living star before whom all the suns created by the Father seem dull.
This is one of those posts where the content is so riddled with error (canker) that it leaves one unable to respond. There is a time coming when these fallacies will be totally removed from the earth...even so come Lord Jesus!
 

Sabé

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This is one of those posts where the content is so riddled with error (canker) that it leaves one unable to respond. There is a time coming when these fallacies will be totally removed from the earth...even so come Lord Jesus!

I agree with the part that it does leave you unable to respond.
 
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quietthinker

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He didn't.

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus as high priest:- The author outlines the qualifications of Jesus for this role by first examining the office and its nature as described in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then demonstrating how Jesus perfectly fulfills those same requirements.

If you can show me anywhere in the OT or NT that Christ was God or had to be God - well good luck!
Isaiah 9:5-7
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
 
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Hiddenthings

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Isaiah 9:5-7
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Future tense - born and given - taken from among men.

Notice on what basis God's children will be given to him?

Hebrews “And again, ‘I will put my trust in him.’ And again, ‘Behold, I and the children whom God has given me.’”

Wonderful things here quiet!
 

Hiddenthings

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@quietthinker

These quotations come from consecutive verses in Isaiah 8 (vv. 17–18). In the Old Testament, Isaiah is the speaker, but the parallels between Isaiah and Jesus, along with the messianic tone of the context, help explain how Jesus can be understood as the speaker. Like any man, he places his trust in “him” (i.e., God) and identifies with the “children” whom God has given.

Logic should prevail.
 

quietthinker

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Future tense - born and given - taken from among men.

Notice on what basis God's children will be given to him?

Hebrews “And again, ‘I will put my trust in him.’ And again, ‘Behold, I and the children whom God has given me.’”

Wonderful things here quiet!
hmmm, not sure what you're trying to say. The following text is pretty straight forward to me.
'And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,'
 
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Hiddenthings

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hmmm, not sure what you're trying to say. The following text is pretty straight forward to me.
'And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,'
Are you referring to the fact that Jesus will be called "mighty God?"
 
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Hiddenthings

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Context is important here. Jesus will be the “mighty God” in the Kingdom Age when he comes in the power and glory of his Father (Matt 16:27). He is fully worthy of this title. Of an angel it was said, “my name is in him” (Exod. 23:21), yet the Son of God has inherited a name far greater than the angels (Heb. 1:4, RSV) and is therefore worthy to carry divine titles. This, however, does not mean he is “Very God,” any more than it did for the angel who bore God’s name before Israel.

That being said, if you held to that (trinitarian) teaching, you would naturally try to make the text support your position, even if it wasn’t the truth.

Going back to the beginning, what we still see is a man who mediates between God and man, yet now this man is exalted to the Father’s right hand and represents Him perfectly.

He still is and will forever be our High Priest who was taken from among men.
 

rebuilder 454

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Context is important here. Jesus will be the “mighty God” in the Kingdom Age when he comes in the power and glory of his Father (Matt 16:27). He is fully worthy of this title. Of an angel it was said, “my name is in him” (Exod. 23:21), yet the Son of God has inherited a name far greater than the angels (Heb. 1:4, RSV) and is therefore worthy to carry divine titles. This, however, does not mean he is “Very God,” any more than it did for the angel who bore God’s name before Israel.

That being said, if you held to that (trinitarian) teaching, you would naturally try to make the text support your position, even if it wasn’t the truth.

Going back to the beginning, what we still see is a man who mediates between God and man, yet now this man is exalted to the Father’s right hand and represents Him perfectly.

He still is and will forever be our High Priest who was taken from among men.
This is a Christian site.
You are a heretic.
Your doctrine is a lie.
 

rebuilder 454

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hmmm, not sure what you're trying to say. The following text is pretty straight forward to me.
'And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,'
Hidden things doctrine is 100% watchtower lies.
I have no idea why they are allowed in here.
Leading people into hell.
THEY DENY THE DEITY OF JESUS.
DENY JESUS, and buy a ticket to hell.
They come in here playing a deadly game.
 
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rebuilder 454

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He didn't.

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus as high priest:- The author outlines the qualifications of Jesus for this role by first examining the office and its nature as described in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then demonstrating how Jesus perfectly fulfills those same requirements.

If you can show me anywhere in the OT or NT that Christ was God or had to be God - well good luck!
Both God and man .
Kindergarten basic bible.
You are so far off it is pitiful
 
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rebuilder 454

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No, the very act of Logos becoming flesh is NOT God becoming sins flesh which is impossible! But God revealing Himself through that Flesh.

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Romans 5:1

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinth 15:57

I just realized it's actually useless quoting Scripture to you asoul!

You believe the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. But this is not enough to prove Trinitarianism. You also need to prove that the reverse is true: ie. that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You must prove that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are united in substance as three persons comprising one being Who is God. All of this must be achieved using exclusively Biblical concepts derived solely from Scripture.

I know that you know you can't do this...so where does that place you?

Go into Scripture (not creeds) and search how God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself.

Once you have done this...inform me how we as Sons of God do likewise (how God manifests His will through us!)



For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. Eccles 3:19

This truth is the basis of every Scripture concerning the fate of man and beast.

F2F
God is three persons.
God made man 3 parts.
Spirit,soul and Body.
Man is triune.
Oh wait, that can not be.

In Rev Jesus is both a lion and a lamb.

God is not in your box.

In your one dimensional doctrine Jesus can not be a lion and a lamb at the same time.
 

Eternally Grateful

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He didn't.

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus as high priest:- The author outlines the qualifications of Jesus for this role by first examining the office and its nature as described in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then demonstrating how Jesus perfectly fulfills those same requirements.

If you can show me anywhere in the OT or NT that Christ was God or had to be God - well good luck!
Jesus could not be a high priest if the sacrifice was not given.

Jesus (the lamb of God) had to be God. otherwise he could not pay for all the sin of mankind. so he could possibly be a high priest for them.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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This is one of those posts where the content is so riddled with error (canker) that it leaves one unable to respond. There is a time coming when these fallacies will be totally removed from the earth...even so come Lord Jesus!
a fallacy that the great "I Am" was not God?

That my friend is the fallacy
 

Eternally Grateful

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Context is important here. Jesus will be the “mighty God” in the Kingdom Age when he comes in the power and glory of his Father (Matt 16:27). He is fully worthy of this title. Of an angel it was said, “my name is in him” (Exod. 23:21), yet the Son of God has inherited a name far greater than the angels (Heb. 1:4, RSV) and is therefore worthy to carry divine titles. This, however, does not mean he is “Very God,” any more than it did for the angel who bore God’s name before Israel.

That being said, if you held to that (trinitarian) teaching, you would naturally try to make the text support your position, even if it wasn’t the truth.

Going back to the beginning, what we still see is a man who mediates between God and man, yet now this man is exalted to the Father’s right hand and represents Him perfectly.

He still is and will forever be our High Priest who was taken from among men.
so a man becomes God..

Got it :rolleyes:
 
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Michiah-Imla

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“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…” (Isa 11:1-2, KJV)
 
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rebuilder 454

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“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…” (Isa 11:1-2, KJV)
Good verse.
Yes Jesus is deity.