Why did our Redeemer need to be both God and Man?

[Hiddenthings]

Sounds like a convoluted reply for a straightforward text.

Things need interpreting...I'm sure you know this

 

[PS95]

Hidden things doctrine is 100% watchtower lies.
I have no idea why they are allowed in here.
Leading people into hell.
THEY DENY THE DEITY OF JESUS.
DENY JESUS, and buy a ticket to hell.
They come in here playing a deadly game.

Hidden and Trevor arent Jws- but very similar group- Christadephians.
Many Uni's hold to this Jesus had no pre-existence nonsense. That is what drives their doctrines..
It makes little sense to debate it- they have dug in their heels as cults do. offering scriptures goes nowhere- cognitive dissonance is very real.
They have Gnosis secret special knowledge that you need..

I agree they should not be here. Oh well......

 

[quietthinker]

Things need interpreting...I'm sure you know this

Yes, things do need interpreting.
Everything is worth a second look but missing the obvious is hardly discerning.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, things do need interpreting.
Everything is worth a second look but missing the obvious is hardly discerning.

And is the “obvious” simply your interpretation?

When you read Isaiah 9, you must be careful not to import doctrines that were formulated in church councils more than 300 years after the Gospel was first proclaimed, and which, even in the days of the Apostles, were already being challenged.

Surely the prophet was not delivering a discourse on a later Trinitarian formula.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

The challenge with passages like Isaiah 9 is that they are often interpreted in isolation, rather than in light of the whole of Scripture, yet all of Scripture must fit together in harmony.

Take 1 Corinthians 15:22–28 which can be read as a commentary on Isaiah 9:6.

The Father grants the Son delegated authority and power, but only for a limited time.

“For he {God} hath put all things under his {Jesus’} feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him {God} that put all things under him {Jesus}, that God may be all in all” (vv. 27–28).

Now I know that you know this to be true and yet how do you fit this into Isaiah 9?

Do you return with "convoluted?"

Since the Son is ultimately subject to the Father, he cannot be considered “co-equal” with the Father, and by implication is not a distinct person within a triune Godhead.

Within Hebrew tradition, Isaiah 9:6 is understood differently. The Messiah is given titles that reflect God, in much the same way as other Jews were named after God, including Isaiah himself. The list of titles is not Trinitarian in nature: for example, Jesus is not identified as “the Father” in traditional interpretation. The phrase “Mighty God” (El Gibbor) also bears this nuance, since gibbor can be applied to human figures as “hero” or “mighty one” elsewhere in the Old Testament.

It isn’t my role to convince you of anything, only to lay out the facts. What you choose to do with them is entirely in your hands. That’s what I love about pursuing “truth”: it is discovered by the one who truly seeks, and it is to such a seeker, when rewarded, that God takes delight.

That is why I sometimes find it almost amusing when people respond with such emotion, yet cannot give a reason for their hope, offering only heartfelt pleas but no real substance to uphold their position.

Been good chatting!

 

[Marvelloustime]

Great another all inclusiviain , whats next muslims and buddists and atheists are now all our brothers and sisters too .
My goodness folks , WHEN does this madness end .
MORMONS , really grailhunter . REALLY . this madness must stop .
I will list just a few places
that all must stay out and or get out of and fast . THE RCC , FLEE it
Mormonism , FLEE it , nar realm , FLEE IT
progressive liberal realm FLEE IT , JW , flee it , SDA , flee it
OH my this list is gonna be long . JUST GET BACK INTO THE BIBLE for ourselves and fast , please , please hurry .

@amigo de christo

 

[quietthinker]

I

@quietthinker

The challenge with passages like Isaiah 9 is that they are often interpreted in isolation, rather than in light of the whole of Scripture, yet all of Scripture must fit together in harmony.

Take 1 Corinthians 15:22–28 which can be read as a commentary on Isaiah 9:6.

The Father grants the Son delegated authority and power, but only for a limited time.

“For he {God} hath put all things under his {Jesus’} feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him {God} that put all things under him {Jesus}, that God may be all in all” (vv. 27–28).

Now I know that you know this to be true and yet how do you fit this into Isaiah 9?

Do you return with "convoluted?"

Since the Son is ultimately subject to the Father, he cannot be considered “co-equal” with the Father, and by implication is not a distinct person within a triune Godhead.

Within Hebrew tradition, Isaiah 9:6 is understood differently. The Messiah is given titles that reflect God, in much the same way as other Jews were named after God, including Isaiah himself. The list of titles is not Trinitarian in nature: for example, Jesus is not identified as “the Father” in traditional interpretation. The phrase “Mighty God” (El Gibbor) also bears this nuance, since gibbor can be applied to human figures as “hero” or “mighty one” elsewhere in the Old Testament.

It isn’t my role to convince you of anything, only to lay out the facts. What you choose to do with them is entirely in your hands. That’s what I love about pursuing “truth”: it is discovered by the one who truly seeks, and it is to such a seeker, when rewarded, that God takes delight.

That is why I sometimes find it almost amusing when people respond with such emotion, yet cannot give a reason for their hope, offering only heartfelt pleas but no real substance to uphold their position.

Been good chatting!

It's not complicated. Love involves the other and defers to the other. It is not a singular activity. It doesn't glorify' itself, it glorifies the other.
The Father glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, the Spirit glorifies the Son. The scripture is clear on this.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Greetings rebuilder 454,


I notice that @Hiddenthings also claims to be a Christian, and if you have followed some of his earlier threads you will discover that he is not a JW. I agree with his view that there is only one God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. I appreciate the tolerance of this Forum to allow a range of beliefs, to discuss these openly and sensibly, as by comparison I have been banned from a number of other forums mainly because I do not accept the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

A virgin birth and Jesus resurrecting himself are also mind bending.
Does not mean they are not pillars of the faith.

The reason the pillars, such as the trinity , are non negotiable, is because to reject them, is to reject not only the bible, but God's testimony.

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 69363

And the sheep have come out of her . The whore is going down on the day of the LORD as will all her children
who loved and bought and made a lie they called love . Kinda odd about the only thing their love seems to love
IS what is contrary to GOD and to HIS LOVE . BUT then this is WHY its all going down on the DAY OF THE LORD .
CAUSE IT WAS NOT OF GOD , it was of he who played as though he were GOD and spouted a love that the flesh did love .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

A virgin birth...... also mind bending. Does not mean they are not pillars of the faith.
The reason the pillars, such as the trinity , are non negotiable, is because to reject them, is to reject not only the bible, but God's testimony.

I appreciate your response, but I hold very strongly onto a belief in the virgin birth, and also believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. I also claim that the Bible teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit on the right hand of God, the Father in God the Father's Throne, and that Jesus will soon return to sit upon his own Throne, the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rebuilder 454]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

I appreciate your response, but I hold very strongly onto a belief in the virgin birth, and also believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. I also claim that the Bible teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit on the right hand of God, the Father in God the Father's Throne, and that Jesus will soon return to sit upon his own Throne, the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

On one dimension you simply believe it.
( the virgin birth)
Even though we can not explain it.

On the other hand, God tells us Jesus us not only deity , but God, and your mind tells you not to believe it.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

A virgin birth and Jesus resurrecting himself are also mind bending.
Does not mean they are not pillars of the faith.

The reason the pillars, such as the trinity , are non negotiable, is because to reject them, is to reject not only the bible, but God's testimony.

Yep

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

On one dimension you simply believe it. ( the virgin birth)
Even though we can not explain it.

I am not sure as to what is your problem here as Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 are simple and clear that God the Father was the father of Jesus by means of the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rebuilder 454]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

I am not sure as to what is your problem here as Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 are simple and clear that God the Father was the father of Jesus by means of the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother.

Kind regards
Trevor

Quoting half of my thought is lame.
Same as deception.
Then saying it is "my problem"

You ok?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

Quoting half of my thought is lame. Same as deception. Then saying it is "my problem"

But you seem to have a problem with the virgin birth, as you claim that it is mind bending. I suggest that the narratives of the virgin birth in Matthew and Luke are simple and clear, but the facts of the case directly contradict the concept and details of the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God Luke 1:35.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rebuilder 454]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

But you seem to have a problem with the virgin birth, as you claim that it is mind bending. I suggest that the narratives of the virgin birth in Matthew and Luke are simple and clear, but the facts of the case directly contradict the concept and details of the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God Luke 1:35.

Kind regards
Trevor

The doctrine of the trinity declares Jesus is the Son of God as you indicated.

The virgin birth is declared in scripture.
Only someone in rebellion would "have a problem" with what is vividly declared.
The virgin birth is one of many pillars of tge Christian doctrine.
I not only have no problem with it, I celebrate it.
My comment to you on the virgin birth, was, like the trinity, it is not mechanically understood through some prism of doubt, as you indicate in your misunderstanding , conclusion, and approach.

So my observation was and is, that you accept one by faith and reject the other in rebellion to the verses you are shown.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

The doctrine of the trinity declares Jesus is the Son of God as you indicted.

The Athanasian Creed does briefly mention and claim that Jesus is the Son of God, but it seems to indicate that the reason why he is called the Son of God is because he was "begotten before the worlds". while Luke 1:35 defines Jesus as the Son of God because God the Father is the father of the human Jesus and Mary is his mother,

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ."

Luke 1:35 (KJV) 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rebuilder 454]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

The Athanasian Creed does briefly mention and claim that Jesus is the Son of God, but it seems to indicate that the reason why he is called the Son of God is because he was "begotten before the worlds". while Luke 1:35 defines Jesus as the Son of God because God the Father is the father of the human Jesus and Mary is his mother,

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ."

Luke 1:35 (KJV) 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

All that conjecture is annihilated by God's Word.
You hate the deity of Jesus.
That means you hate the testimony of God and refuse salvation by denying Jesus.

Your supposed salvation is through an imperfect human.
Your doctrine claims salvation through corrupt human blood.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again rebuilder 454,

All that conjecture is annihilated by God's Word.

As far as conjecture goes, some suggest that Jesus as the only begotten was begotten from eternity, not just before the worlds. I find no mention of this in God's Word.

Your supposed salvation is through an imperfect human. Your doctrine claims salvation through corrupt human blood.

I am not sure what you are actually saying here. Jesus always did that which was pleasing to the Father and he never sinned.

Kind regards
Trevor