The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence

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covenantee

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This verse has nothing to do with the content of the promises of God.
Your understanding is deficient. Both "yea" and "Amen" embrace the reality of the completed fulfillment of the promises, which most definitively includes their content.

3483 [e]
Nai
Ναί .
Yes
Prtcl

"have been fulfilled, have been confirmed by the event, 2 Corinthians 1:20"

"Ναί encapsulates the certainty of God’s word. Paul’s “Yes in Christ” assures believers that every covenant promise finds fulfillment, encouraging unwavering trust."


281 [e]
Amēn
Ἀμὴν
Amen
Heb

"Ἀμήν in the New Testament is more than a liturgical sign-off; it is the Spirit-chosen word that binds every promise of God to its fulfillment in Christ and invites every believer to stake his life on that unbreakable certainty."


You try to destroy the content of the promises of God. Greater shame on you!
 

Randy Kluth

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Your understanding is deficient. Both "yea" and "Amen" embrace the reality of the completed fulfillment of the promises, which most definitively includes their content.
I've not said otherwise. God's Promises include *all* of his promises, ie all of their content. It is *you* who are excluding from the set of God's Promises the Promise God made to the nation Israel. It was not a Promise that Paul said could be excluded by failure under the Old Covenant. It was affirmed by an "Amen" that the Promise continues forever.
 

covenantee

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I've not said otherwise. God's Promises include *all* of his promises, ie all of their content. It is *you* who are excluding from the set of God's Promises the Promise God made to the nation Israel. It was not a Promise that Paul said could be excluded by failure under the Old Covenant. It was affirmed by an "Amen" that the Promise continues forever.
"All of their content" is and are fulfilled in Christ, and Christ alone.

There are no promises for anyone outside of Christ.

That includes the unbelieving within Israel.
 
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PinSeeker

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is heretic bad? it means "to chose" and i like making my own choices. the Nazarene, the sect of Jesus, the church called heretics.
Excuse me... What? <smile>

A heretic, Jaybird, is a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted ~ in this particular case regarding eschatological matters. And we could say the same about the different systematic views of Scripture, namely dispensationalism versus covenant theology. Now, it could be said by a person holding to any of the eschatological views (premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, and possibly preterism)... and/or systematic views of Scripture (dispensational, covenantal)... that anyone holding to any of the views except his/hers is a heretic, because in some sense they are all "generally accepted" (some more than others, of course).

But, at any rate, we should be careful about bandying that term around (and weaponizing it, really), as... some... on here are prone to do.

Generally speaking, just because someone is wrong about something doesn't mean they are a heretic.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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It is *you* who are excluding from the set of God's Promises the Promise God made to the nation Israel.
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The real disagreement, Randy, is who God's Israel really is. And the answer is given to us by Paul ~ who was very, very Jewish ~ in Romans 2:28-29... "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

And in Romans 9:6-8... "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

It was not a Promise that Paul said could be excluded by failure under the Old Covenant. It was affirmed by an "Amen" that the Promise continues forever.
Well, right, but see directly above. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Randy Kluth

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The real disagreement, Randy, is who God's Israel really is. And the answer is given to us by Paul ~ who was very, very Jewish ~ in Romans 2:28-29... "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

And in Romans 9:6-8... "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."


Well, right, but see directly above. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.
I appreciate your good spirit, even in disagreement. My position is that Paul did not separate physical characteristics from the promise God made to Abraham concerning the nation Israel. What he said was that physical characteristics alone would not fulfill the promise's requirement, since it is both the physical characteristics and the presence of faith that were required in the promise.

We can clearly see that there are many Jews in Israel who do not have faith, indicating that it is not just by physical characteristics that a person is qualified to be a son of God. There are also many nominal Christians in Christian countries who also would not qualify with their lack of genuine faith, since they subvert essential Christian doctrines from their belief system.

So what Paul said is entirely true, that physical characteristics alone do not generate faith, which is needed. But it is at the same time essential that there be national distinctions in order to fulfill the promise, since a specific nation was mentioned, ie Israel, along with a multitude of other nations--not just remnants, but entire "nations."

This has all been seen in history, Israel devoted to covenant relationship with God, and Christian nations following suit. It should be no surprise that God intends to achieve this again, though with greater permanence in the future.
 

Randy Kluth

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"All of their content" is and are fulfilled in Christ, and Christ alone.

There are no promises for anyone outside of Christ.

That includes the unbelieving within Israel.
A nation devoted to Christ fulfills the requirement to be "in Christ." The nation "Israel" can be identified as the candidate of promise even at a time when it is not "in Christ," because the promise concerns not just what "is," but also what "will be."
 

covenantee

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A nation devoted to Christ fulfills the requirement to be "in Christ." The nation "Israel" can be identified as the candidate of promise even at a time when it is not "in Christ," because the promise concerns not just what "is," but also what "will be."
The nation devoted to Christ to which you refer is the Church of Christ. Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:5,9

It is immeasurably more than a candidate of promise. It is the children of promise. Romans 9:8; Galatians 4:28

Past, present, and future.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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When did I say Premillennialism was heretical?

" ...many of the views they hold, cherish and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity – chiefly among the heretics."
..."But, it may shock a lot of them to know that many of the views they hold, cherish and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity – chiefly among the heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early Church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (AD 50-100) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: AD 85, Died: AD 160). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity.
Like the Pharisees, the early Premillennialist heretics had a hyper-literal earthly expectation of a future physical earthly kingdom, believing that the Old Testament kingdom promises would be fulfilled by ethnic Israel coming to prominence there."
 

PinSeeker

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I appreciate your good spirit, even in disagreement. My position is that Paul did not separate physical characteristics from the promise God made to Abraham concerning the nation Israel. What he said was that physical characteristics alone would not fulfill the promise's requirement, since it is both the physical characteristics and the presence of faith that were required in the promise.

We can clearly see that there are many Jews in Israel who do not have faith, indicating that it is not just by physical characteristics that a person is qualified to be a son of God. There are also many nominal Christians in Christian countries who also would not qualify with their lack of genuine faith, since they subvert essential Christian doctrines from their belief system.

So what Paul said is entirely true, that physical characteristics alone do not generate faith, which is needed. But it is at the same time essential that there be national distinctions in order to fulfill the promise, since a specific nation was mentioned, ie Israel, along with a multitude of other nations--not just remnants, but entire "nations."

This has all been seen in history, Israel devoted to covenant relationship with God, and Christian nations following suit. It should be no surprise that God intends to achieve this again, though with greater permanence in the future.
The issue is not "physical characteristics" or lack thereof, it's really about ethnicity. And nothing God has ever done as really had anything to do, ultimately speaking, with ethnicity. Yes, everything was shown and taught and illustrated through lesser Israel, which consisted of mostly ethnic Jews. But there were some aliens... Gentiles... taken into the commonwealth of Israel, foreshadowing the full inclusion of Gentile believers upon the coming of Jesus. This is why God allowed Satan to "deceive the nations" (in Revelation 20 terms) throughout the Old Testament and up to Jesus's advent. He was able ~ again because God allowed it, even ordained it to be so ~ to prevent the Gospel from being spread to "the nations" outside/beyond Israel. Again, ultimately speaking, God's Israel was never and never will be limited to just ethnic Jews. But it suited His purposes for this to be the case for a time, namely from Adam through Moses and the prophets. But when Jesus came, that was no more... it was revealed in full. The Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, and Satan's power to "deceive the nations" was completely taken away.

When Paul says in Romans 2 that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical; a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; his praise is not from man but from God," this was really always true, even from the beginning. Rather than Paul saying "physical characteristics alone" do not generate faith, he was saying ethnicity does nothing to determine who is able to have faith... or to whom God's promises are limited to. So... What we call "lesser Israel" in the Old Testament was picture" of God's "greater Israel." This is exactly what Paul is saying at the end of Ephesians 2 (vv.11-22)...

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

As has been said, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Yes, we can know that there are many Jews in Israel who do not have saving faith and thus do not believe. That means either ~ and we do not know which, which should produce in us the same desire to share the Gospel with them as with anyone else of any other ethnicity ~ of the following:
  • that they are not yet called by God and thus are not yet (in the case of Elect Jews who are not yet born again of the Spirit) part of God's Israel but will be
  • that they never will be part of God's Israel (as is true with all the non-Elect, Jew or Gentile).
Which group anyone who is not right now a believer falls into only God knows. And He will bring His Israel to completion (Romans 11:25-26).

Thank you for the kind words regarding my spirit; same to you.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
 

Randy Kluth

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The issue is not "physical characteristics" or lack thereof, it's really about ethnicity.
Really? What do you do with this passage?....

Amos 3.2 You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth.

Israel was specially chosen as God's 1st born among the nations, as the direct descendants of Abraham and Isaac. And they were barred from connecting with pagan nations around them. This involves biological descendancy and restriction to a single ethnicity.

Other nations were not subject to the entire Law of Moses as Israel was. That is discrimination, though certainly not partiality.
And nothing God has ever done as really had anything to do, ultimately speaking, with ethnicity. Yes, everything was shown and taught and illustrated through lesser Israel, which consisted of mostly ethnic Jews. But there were some aliens... Gentiles... taken into the commonwealth of Israel, foreshadowing the full inclusion of Gentile believers upon the coming of Jesus. This is why God allowed Satan to "deceive the nations" (in Revelation 20 terms) throughout the Old Testament and up to Jesus's advent. He was able ~ again because God allowed it, even ordained it to be so ~ to prevent the Gospel from being spread to "the nations" outside/beyond Israel. Again, ultimately speaking, God's Israel was never and never will be limited to just ethnic Jews. But it suited His purposes for this to be the case for a time, namely from Adam through Moses and the prophets. But when Jesus came, that was no more... it was revealed in full. The Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, and Satan's power to "deceive the nations" was completely taken away.
All this is debatable. I think all nations have always been under a law of conscience. Lacking the Law of Moses other nations were not without God's Law.

I don't think God's Law was ever kept from people generally. But when they turn away from God, then God gives them a delusion to believe in something other than Himself. That is, He allows them freedom to Sin.

The Law of Moses was a means of exposing sin 1st in Israel and later in all nations so that final judgment can come to the world. Judgment follows God's Law.
When Paul says in Romans 2 that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical; a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; his praise is not from man but from God," this was really always true, even from the beginning. Rather than Paul saying "physical characteristics alone" do not generate faith, he was saying ethnicity does nothing to determine who is able to have faith... or to whom God's promises are limited to. So... What we call "lesser Israel" in the Old Testament was picture" of God's "greater Israel." This is exactly what Paul is saying at the end of Ephesians 2 (vv.11-22)...
I agree that physical characteristics have nothing to do with having Faith. But I wouldn't say physical characteristics are not important to the Promise. Can you have Salvation without human beings? No, neither can you have Salvation unless there are a multitude of nations, including especially Israel. And that's because that is what God promised Abraham, the salvation of both Israel and a company of nations.
"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

As has been said, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Yes, we can know that there are many Jews in Israel who do not have saving faith and thus do not believe. That means either ~ and we do not know which, which should produce in us the same desire to share the Gospel with them as with anyone else of any other ethnicity ~ of the following:
  • that they are not yet called by God and thus are not yet (in the case of Elect Jews who are not yet born again of the Spirit) part of God's Israel but will be
  • that they never will be part of God's Israel (as is true with all the non-Elect, Jew or Gentile).
Again, this is debatable. I think God knows in advance who His Elect are. And I think we can also know who they are, to some extent. They are those who are open and ultimately willing to respond to the word of Christ.

Israel is called to be a holy nation, but God only chooses those who are or will be His Elect.
Which group anyone who is not right now a believer falls into only God knows. And He will bring His Israel to completion (Romans 11:25-26).

Thank you for the kind words regarding my spirit; same to you.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
These are all arguable points, but thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions.
 

covenantee

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This involves biological descendancy and restriction to a single ethnicity.
Untrue. From its birth, Israel was comprised of both Abraham's descendants and non-descendants (i.e. known ultimately as Jews and Gentiles). Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

God's Covenant was extended equally and impartially to all of those faithful and obedient to Him and His Covenant.
 
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WPM

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" ...many of the views they hold, cherish and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity – chiefly among the heretics."
..."But, it may shock a lot of them to know that many of the views they hold, cherish and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity – chiefly among the heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early Church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (AD 50-100) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: AD 85, Died: AD 160). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity.
Like the Pharisees, the early Premillennialist heretics had a hyper-literal earthly expectation of a future physical earthly kingdom, believing that the Old Testament kingdom promises would be fulfilled by ethnic Israel coming to prominence there."
The ancient founders of what we have today in modern Premil were heretics. Big difference. Hello! See the evidence. It is irrefutable. That is likely why no Premil is able to rebut it (including yourself). Those believers who follow it today have recived it from a questionable source. Look at the evidence in the Op. Where am I wrong?
 
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jaybird

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You may identify as a heretic. But it is not good to be a heretic. They are a schismatic. They divide and destroy.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
so the Nazarene, the sect of Jesus, taught be Jesus, these guys, according to you, are the bad guys. and the guys that burn people alive and do torture inquisitions, they are the good guys.
am i understanding this correct?
 
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jaybird

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Excuse me... What? <smile>

A heretic, Jaybird, is a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted ~ in this particular case regarding eschatological matters. And we could say the same about the different systematic views of Scripture, namely dispensationalism versus covenant theology. Now, it could be said by a person holding to any of the eschatological views (premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, and possibly preterism)... and/or systematic views of Scripture (dispensational, covenantal)... that anyone holding to any of the views except his/hers is a heretic, because in some sense they are all "generally accepted" (some more than others, of course).

But, at any rate, we should be careful about bandying that term around (and weaponizing it, really), as... some... on here are prone to do.

Generally speaking, just because someone is wrong about something doesn't mean they are a heretic.

Grace and peace to you.
the greek word it comes from means "to chose for ones self". you got to back to the old greek, your using a modern definition.
this means if you are moved by the spirit you have to check with the church first as they believe they are above the spirit.
 

Randy Kluth

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Untrue. From its birth, Israel was comprised of both Abraham's descendants and non-descendants (i.e. known ultimately as Jews and Gentiles). Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

God's Covenant was extended equally and impartially to all of those faithful and obedient to Him and His Covenant.
Having non-Hebrews absorbed into the nation and into the ethnicity is in fact an ethnic maneuver. How you are unable to see that astounds me!

Grafting a branch from a different tree into a plum tree does not mean that the plum tree is not a plum tree. Grafting non-Hebrews into a Hebrew Tree does not make the Hebrew Tree a non-Hebrew Tree.

The fact it is Hebrew is a critical component of what God was doing because it was to be a nation descended from Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. That is ethnic and that is racial. Having other nations conform to the uniquely Hebrew Law of Moses doesn't render ethnicity irrelevant. In fact, it is even more relevant!

You can believe the earth is flat for all I care. But God designed an ethnic, racial equation, even if it was ultimately to influence many other nations separately.
 

IndianaRob

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Having non-Hebrews absorbed into the nation and into the ethnicity is in fact an ethnic maneuver. How you are unable to see that astounds me!

Grafting a branch from a different tree into a plum tree does not mean that the plum tree is not a plum tree. Grafting non-Hebrews into a Hebrew Tree does not make the Hebrew Tree a non-Hebrew Tree.

The fact it is Hebrew is a critical component of what God was doing because it was to be a nation descended from Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. That is ethnic and that is racial. Having other nations conform to the uniquely Hebrew Law of Moses doesn't render ethnicity irrelevant. In fact, it is even more relevant!

You can believe the earth is flat for all I care. But God designed an ethnic, racial equation, even if it was ultimately to influence many other nations separately.
Keep in mind Randy, the tree gentiles were grafted into was the olive tree not the fig tree. Israel (Hebrews) are the fig tree. A fig tree is not an olive tree. Gentiles weren’t grafted into Hebrews.
 

covenantee

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Having non-Hebrews absorbed into the nation and into the ethnicity is in fact an ethnic maneuver. How you are unable to see that astounds me!
Having non-Hebrews and Hebrews absorbed into one nation and body is a superb description of the NT nation and body of Christ's Church.

Thanks for providing it!

God cannot be contorted into a racist.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Having non-Hebrews and Hebrews absorbed into one nation and body is a superb description of the NT nation and body of Christ's Church.

Thanks for providing it!

God cannot be contorted into a racist.
A nation consisting of minorities does not cancel a national ethnicity--it absorbs them. "One nation" does not describe the International Church! The Church by definition consists of multiple nations, and is not, by definition, a single nation. You're placing loose with the definition of a "nation." In fact, you're using a non-literal definition of "nation."
 

Randy Kluth

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Keep in mind Randy, the tree gentiles were grafted into was the olive tree not the fig tree. Israel (Hebrews) are the fig tree. A fig tree is not an olive tree. Gentiles weren’t grafted into Hebrews.
False. Both the Fig Tree and the Olivet Tree can represent Israel. Gentile believers could be grafted into the Israeli "Tree" during the OT era. Paul used this example in the NT era because there were not yet any nations of faith other than Israel.

Jer 11.16 The Lord called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form.
 
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