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WPM

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Where did Jesus promise to come "physically"? Why do you dismiss the fulfillment much more closer to the words of Jesus, but stick to weird explanations like transfiguration which do not fit the prophecies at all? Does not make any sense.

Josephus even mentions the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (even though not recognizing it and calling it to be like a sword), exactly as Jesus said.
Acts 1:10 demolishes your secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

Physically: “This same Jesus.”
Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what you have been taught, the second coming of Christ has not happened neither is it a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.
 
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HealthyShape

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Acts 1:10 demolishes your secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

Physically: “This same Jesus.”
Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what do you have been taught, the second coming of Christ has not happened neither is it a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.
I see, you could not find anything actually saying "physically". You could only find verses about visibility, so you try to hide it into it.

Answer me this, but clearly and concisely: Why do you insist that "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" must be either transfiguration or the Pentecost (even though these events were not related to any sign mentioned with the coming), but you reject the 70 AD which was full of the sings mentioned with His Coming?
 

rwb

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Well, you just presented the common futurist eschatological view. But fine.

What I presented comes by study of the Word of God through FAITH and power of the Holy Spirit in me. You, on the other hand you try proving your doctrine using an unbelieving Jewish historian without faith or the Holy Spirit that unbelievers shall not possess for your understanding of the doctrines of Christ.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:13 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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WPM

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I see, you could not find anything actually saying "physically". You could only find verses about visibility, so you try to hide it into it.

Answer me this, but clearly and concisely: Why do you insist that "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" must be either transfiguration or the Pentecost (even though these events were not related to any sign mentioned with the coming), but you reject the 70 AD which was full of the sings mentioned with His Coming?
It is all in context and fulfills what was predicted. The kingdom did come in supernatural "power" in both of these instances.
 
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WPM

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"A most strange and prodigious thing appeared; for upon the first day of the siege, there appeared to many men in the city, as they were looking upwards, something like a light of a continuing flame, and of a great and bright blaze; and this they say, continued for an entire day, and shone exceedingly; yet it was not near them, but distant; and it was in the air, and of a round compass: and some saw it to be of a small compass, and in manner of a round circle, but others that were at a distance, say it was of a long length; and some say it made a noise in the air, as of a trumpet; and some say it moved up and down, and some say they saw it to be in the southern quarter."
From The Jewish War, Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3 (Whiston):

"There were also many prodigies seen in the heavens; among which were these:—there was a very great light seen in the heavens, and as it were the figure of a sword; and there were the voices of men sounded in the air."
From Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 10

This corresponds much more to the words of Jesus than the transfiguration or the Pentecost hypotheses. Sword = cross.
Where are all the Christian testimonies of this great historic appearing?
 
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Lizbeth

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If we want to talk about the New Testament prophecies, they were meant to be fulfilled in the first century.

Regarding the Gentile nations, it is quite subjective to call a bad event (e.g. the fall of the Roman empire) a judgement. Almost all nations have some bad events and crises throughout their history.
I was thinking of the whole world being judged in the end of this age of grace.
 

grafted branch

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Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.
I came across a formula that shows that under perfect conditions theoretically a person could observe lightning from a maximum distance of approximately 273 miles (440 kilometers) away. Here’s the formula …



D = (2RH + H2 – 2Rh – h2)1/2
D is the maximum distance that lightning can be observed
R is the distance from the surface of the earth to the center of the earth, estimated at 4,000 miles
H is the height of the clouds, based on Wikipedia’s top most cloud layer that lightning comes from, which is 49,000 feet
h is the height of a person, 6 feet.

Lightning is literally a local event and not a global event.
 

WPM

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I came across a formula that shows that under perfect conditions theoretically a person could observe lightning from a maximum distance of approximately 273 miles (440 kilometers) away. Here’s the formula …



D = (2RH + H2 – 2Rh – h2)1/2
D is the maximum distance that lightning can be observed
R is the distance from the surface of the earth to the center of the earth, estimated at 4,000 miles
H is the height of the clouds, based on Wikipedia’s top most cloud layer that lightning comes from, which is 49,000 feet
h is the height of a person, 6 feet.

Lightning is literally a local event and not a global event.
Why do you limit God? We're not talking about ordinary natural lightning. Why do you question His majesty and power? Why do you deny His glorious final future coming?
 
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grafted branch

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Why do you limit God? We're not talking about ordinary natural lightning. Why do you question His majesty and power? Why do you deny His glorious final future coming?
Hey, I’m not the one who said His coming is like lightning, He Himself used that term.

Are you exaggerating what God has said? How do you know it’s not natural lightning that is being referenced? Are you denying there was a coming in judgment in the first century?

God can do anything He wants but you deny there’s going to be a future millennium so I guess it’s no different than someone denying it’s supernatural lightning.
 

grafted branch

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Why do you limit God? We're not talking about ordinary natural lightning. Why do you question His majesty and power? Why do you deny His glorious final future coming?
When He ascended in Acts1:9 was it seen locally or globally? He will return in like manner.
 

WPM

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Hey, I’m not the one who said His coming is like lightning, He Himself used that term.

Are you exaggerating what God has said? How do you know it’s not natural lightning that is being referenced? Are you denying there was a coming in judgment in the first century?

God can do anything He wants but you deny there’s going to be a future millennium so I guess it’s no different than someone denying it’s supernatural lightning.
Do you believe there is going to be a future millennium?
 

WPM

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When He ascended in Acts1:9 was it seen locally or globally? He will return in like manner.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes [Gr. phulē] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Revelation 1:7 declares: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [Gr. phulē] of the earth shall wail because of him.

The Greek word phulē here means race, clan, kindred, or tribe. When it is prefixed by “all tribes” or “all the tribes” it means all races, it means everyone. Hello!

John is telling us that Jew and Gentile alike will see Jesus when He appears in the future. The wording and context is crystal clear for those who are unindoctrinated and have to support false teaching to push (as you do). He teaches that "every eye shall see him." Hello! There you go! There it is! There is the context to what he is teaching. He then reinforces that all-embracing statement by saying "they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him.”

This couldn't be clearer. The 2nd point reinforces the 2nd point.
 
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rwb

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Hey, I’m not the one who said His coming is like lightning, He Himself used that term.

Are you exaggerating what God has said? How do you know it’s not natural lightning that is being referenced? Are you denying there was a coming in judgment in the first century?

God can do anything He wants but you deny there’s going to be a future millennium so I guess it’s no different than someone denying it’s supernatural lightning.

It should be understood as the coming of Christ shall be exactly as bright shining (lightning) that comes out of the east and shines even unto the west. It's not speaking of literal lightning, but the bright, shining countenance of the Lord. His brightness, like lightning shall not be visible seen from east to west and shining unto every part that is under heaven.

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:24 (KJV)
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Revelation 1:13-15 (KJV) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
 

WPM

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I see, you could not find anything actually saying "physically". You could only find verses about visibility, so you try to hide it into it.

Answer me this, but clearly and concisely: Why do you insist that "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" must be either transfiguration or the Pentecost (even though these events were not related to any sign mentioned with the coming), but you reject the 70 AD which was full of the sings mentioned with His Coming?
He ascended up physically before man and He will descend the same. Hello! It does not need explained away by Preterists to support their error.
 

Davy

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If you would read/study the context of KJV 2 Peter ch. 3, you will definitely see that there are two verses that describe the 1000 years as being about the Lord's plan of salvation through faith in Jesus.

We are to understand that period of time of "a thousand years" to be figurative, because neither Jesus, the angels or any man knows the time of Jesus' return, except God the Father.

Nah..., that's doctrines of men you are trying to use to replace what the Scripture actual says as written.

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


Peter actually is... pointing directly... to the literal "thousand years" period written of in Revelation 20 that begins at Christ's future return. The main subject of that 2 Peter 3 Chapter is about the 3 world earth ages. And with that 2 Peter 3:8-9 Scripture, Peter is letting us know that God is long-suffering and does not wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, meaning believe on Him and His Son Jesus Christ unto Eternal Life. That is actually what the future literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect over the UNSAVED NATIONS is about. There are many souls of this present world time that never had their opportunity to hear The Gospel and believe. That future "thousand years" period that begins at Christ's future return will correct that. And those of God's people that erred will be taught the difference between the holy and profane, and the clean vs. the unclean per God's laws. That is going to be one of the jobs of Christ's future priests, to teach.

And for the "dead" in that future time, for the sake of a relative, those in Christ as His priests, will be allowed to go to a SPIRITUALLY dead relative and help them, for in that time no one is literally dead in a literal grave anymore. The "dead" of Rev.20:5 represent the spiritually dead without Christ, the UNSAVED. I'm not making this up, it is future prophecy written in The Old Testament, but do your own homework.
 

grafted branch

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The Greek word phulē here means race, clan, kindred, or tribe. When it is prefixed by “all tribes” or “all the tribes” it means all races, it means everyone. Hello!
It means everyone who is local will see Him, Hello. His ascension was local, lightning is local, and what happened in 70AD was local. Every local eye sees the local events.
 

WPM

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It means everyone who is local will see Him, Hello. His ascension was local, lightning is local, and what happened in 70AD was local. Every local eye sees the local events.
No. Your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 is blinding you to the truth. Neither the coming of Titus nor AD70 were the focus of the OT Law or the prophets. Neither are they the focus of Jesus and the NT writers. This is the obsession of the heretical Full Preterists. You twist text after text, word after word, and truth after truth, to support your fixation.
 

WPM

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Nah..., that's doctrines of men you are trying to use to replace what the Scripture actual says as written.

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


Peter actually is... pointing directly... to the literal "thousand years" period written of in Revelation 20 that begins at Christ's future return. The main subject of that 2 Peter 3 Chapter is about the 3 world earth ages. And with that 2 Peter 3:8-9 Scripture, Peter is letting us know that God is long-suffering and does not wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, meaning believe on Him and His Son Jesus Christ unto Eternal Life. That is actually what the future literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect over the UNSAVED NATIONS is about. There are many souls of this present world time that never had their opportunity to hear The Gospel and believe. That future "thousand years" period that begins at Christ's future return will correct that. And those of God's people that erred will be taught the difference between the holy and profane, and the clean vs. the unclean per God's laws. That is going to be one of the jobs of Christ's future priests, to teach.

And for the "dead" in that future time, for the sake of a relative, those in Christ as His priests, will be allowed to go to a SPIRITUALLY dead relative and help them, for in that time no one is literally dead in a literal grave anymore. The "dead" of Rev.20:5 represent the spiritually dead without Christ, the UNSAVED. I'm not making this up, it is future prophecy written in The Old Testament, but do your own homework.
You've no proof of anything that you say here. You seem to make it up as you go along. The detail that is connected to the arrival of the day of the Lord is absolutely destructive. No one can possibly survive it. This totally destroys the theory of a future millennium after the second coming.
  1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
  2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
  3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
  4. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
  5. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
  6. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
  7. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
  8. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?
 

WPM

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Nah..., that's doctrines of men you are trying to use to replace what the Scripture actual says as written.

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


Peter actually is... pointing directly... to the literal "thousand years" period written of in Revelation 20 that begins at Christ's future return. The main subject of that 2 Peter 3 Chapter is about the 3 world earth ages. And with that 2 Peter 3:8-9 Scripture, Peter is letting us know that God is long-suffering and does not wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, meaning believe on Him and His Son Jesus Christ unto Eternal Life. That is actually what the future literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect over the UNSAVED NATIONS is about. There are many souls of this present world time that never had their opportunity to hear The Gospel and believe. That future "thousand years" period that begins at Christ's future return will correct that. And those of God's people that erred will be taught the difference between the holy and profane, and the clean vs. the unclean per God's laws. That is going to be one of the jobs of Christ's future priests, to teach.

And for the "dead" in that future time, for the sake of a relative, those in Christ as His priests, will be allowed to go to a SPIRITUALLY dead relative and help them, for in that time no one is literally dead in a literal grave anymore. The "dead" of Rev.20:5 represent the spiritually dead without Christ, the UNSAVED. I'm not making this up, it is future prophecy written in The Old Testament, but do your own homework.
The one thing that 2 Peter 3:8 doesn’t say, and which our Premillennial brethren often add into it is: ‘the day of the Lord is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as the day of the Lord’. In fact, “the day of the Lord” is not even mentioned (or referred to) in the 1 day / 1,000 years equation. The above verses which the Premil often advances as evidence of a literal 1,000-year day of the Lord do not state what they say they do, namely that a day = a literal thousand years. The reading states, looking at the matter from a divine perspective, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” This is in total contrast to man’s limited standpoint, where one day is with him as simply one day. Also, the word “as” in this verse turns the whole phrase into a simile. A simile is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary as: “a figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, the comparison being made explicit typically by the use of the introductory ‘like’ or ‘as’.” This is therefore not meant to be viewed as a literal equation.

The ironic thing is that the reference to “one day” being with the Lord “as (or like) a thousand years, and a thousand years as (or like) one day” is not remotely speaking about a period subsequent to the second coming, but rather, a time preceding it. It is referring to the here-and-now and is specifically highlights the foolish limited temporal short-sighted reasoning of the wicked on earth before Christ’s Advent in glory in contrast to the supreme omniscience of a sovereign Lord.

The Premillennialist totally ignores the fact that the solemn message embodied within this reading is speaking about the “scoffers” in “the last days” who foolishly question the possibility of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of millennial scoffers 1,000 years later or a period following the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is supposed to be a collection of millennial inhabitants 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be mocking “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is completely absurd because Christ’s coming (or parousia) would then be long past.

Those who spiritualize this day by stretching it out over the duration of a literal 1,000 years forget that the climactic detail embodied within the description of the said day destroys any credence that they have for forcing a Premillennial interpretation upon it. They completely demolish their own argument by advancing such an unlikely idea. They are quick to argue day does not truly mean a literal day in Scripture, and hour doesn’t really mean a literal hour, yet they always conveniently arrive at a literal future thousand-year millennium every time they examine the symbolic detail of Revelation 20.

The meaning and actual length of the day mentioned here (however long it is), must relate to a specific time-period in which the detail described in the narrative continues throughout its duration. To argue otherwise is to totally deny the meaning of the passage. Moreover, whatever is portrayed within the aforementioned day is introduced suddenly to this kosmos – “like a thief in the night.” David Brown, in his classic book ‘Christ’s Second coming: Will it be Premillennial?’ rightly explains, “terms and phrases, expressive of perpetuity, are to be stretched no further than the known duration of the thing spoken.”
 

grafted branch

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No. Your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 is blinding you to the truth. Neither the coming of Titus nor AD70 were the focus of the OT Law or the prophets. Neither are they the focus of Jesus and the NT writers. This is the obsession of the heretical Full Preterists. You twist text after text, word after word, and truth after truth, to support your fixation.
No, your obsession with claiming the old covenant vanished at the cross is blinding you to the truth.