if i wanted to become a catholic

[GodsGrace]

You’re correct, Paul did indeed talk about “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4). The true Christ never tolerates sin, He transforms lives. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This is why genuine faith is always accompanied by obedience, and a “jesus” who allows someone to remain in their sin is not a savior at all.

Agreed.
Just one small nuance and it's these nuances that are causing some confusion.

You said:
CHRIST NEVER TOLERATES SIN.
FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE.

Good.

But why finish off with
A JESUS WHO ALLOWS SOMEONE TO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN IS NOT A SAVIOR AT ALL.

Does man lose his free will at salvation?

 

[bdavidc]

Agreed.
Just one small nuance and it's these nuances that are causing some confusion.

You said:
CHRIST NEVER TOLERATES SIN.
FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE.

Good.

But why finish off with
A JESUS WHO ALLOWS SOMEONE TO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN IS NOT A SAVIOR AT ALL.

Does man lose his free will at salvation?

You ask: “Does man lose his free will at salvation?”

No, it doesn’t take away free will. Salvation works in one’s heart. Ezekiel 36: 26–27 writes that God grants a new heart and puts His Spirit within a person so that they walk in His statutes. Paul confirms that it is God which “worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). This doesn’t mean a believer is incapable of sinning, but it does mean they are incapable of remaining in sin as if nothing happened. John wrote, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). The new nature is at war with the old, and the Father disciplines His children when they go astray (Hebrews 12:6).

You said: “But why finish off with A JESUS WHO ALLOWS SOMEONE TO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN IS NOT A SAVIOR AT ALL.”

I actually wrote it like this: “and a “jesus” who allows someone to remain in their sin is not a savior at all.”

The point still stands: A “jesus” (small “j” because it is not the real Jesus) who leaves a person in their sin is not the Savior of Scripture. The true Christ delivers us from sin’s penalty and power. This does not negate choice, but it proves that true salvation will always produce evidence of obedience. Meaning a real believer will repent when they mess up.

 

[amigo de christo]

You ask: “Does man lose his free will at salvation?”

No, it doesn’t take away free will. Salvation works in one’s heart. Ezekiel 36: 26–27 writes that God grants a new heart and puts His Spirit within a person so that they walk in His statutes. Paul confirms that it is God which “worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). This doesn’t mean a believer is incapable of sinning, but it does mean they are incapable of remaining in sin as if nothing happened. John wrote, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). The new nature is at war with the old, and the Father disciplines His children when they go astray (Hebrews 12:6).

You said: “But why finish off with A JESUS WHO ALLOWS SOMEONE TO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN IS NOT A SAVIOR AT ALL.”

I actually wrote it like this: “and a “jesus” who allows someone to remain in their sin is not a savior at all.”

The point still stands: A “jesus” (small “j” because it is not the real Jesus) who leaves a person in their sin is not the Savior of Scripture. The true Christ delivers us from sin’s penalty and power. This does not negate choice, but it proves that true salvation will always produce evidence of obedience. Meaning a real believer will repent when they mess up.

To the trenches the hour is late .

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God requires obedience. That’s never changed. But the point is, if someone isn’t saved, they can’t obey God in a way that pleases Him.

I believe we should stop beating around the bush.
You said that if someone isn't saved they can't obey God......

Listen.
If someone isn't saved they're not REQUIRED to obey God.
WE are.

What I'm saying is that - whatever the reaon - we MUST obey God.
And this should be made very clear to anyone reading along that is either ignorant of the Christian religion
or someone that is new to the faith.

Islam is clear in what it teaches.
Judaism is clear in what it teaches.
Christianity seems to be full on contradictions...
not in the bible - but in what Christians believe is the theology/doctrine.

Romans 8: 7: “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

There you go.
My point exactly.

That’s why the Bible makes it abundantly clear we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8–9), and it is only after we are saved that the Spirit gives us both the desire and the power to obey. Philippians 2: 13: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

Happy to hear that you understand this.
SOME DO NOT.

I agree with you that John 3:36 also connects belief to obedience: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [literally ‘does not obey’ in the Greek] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Saving faith is never mere lip service, it is trust that submits to Christ. Obedience is evidence of true faith, and disobedience shows unbelief.

So the point is this: obedience is not optional, but it is the natural result of salvation. If someone professes faith in Christ and then resists obeying, their faith is a sham. If they are truly saved, they will obey, not because they “feel like it,” but because God has changed their heart.

I just realized I've already replied to this.
It's a problem when one doesn't keep up with their posting.
Sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus never said that good works keep us saved.

Jesus said good works keep us saved.

John 15:2
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

(HE is referring to God,,,the Vine Keeper, verse 1)

He said that the only proof to show if our foundation is real is by our obedience (Matthew 7:24–27).

Why does God need proof?
He doesn't know if we're saved or not?

Jesus said to pray by ourselves....
Jesus said to give anonymously...

God doesn't need proof/evidence.

The wise man hears and does the Word of Christ. He builds on the rock and his house does not fall (Matthew 7:24–25). The foolish man only hears but does not do. He builds on the sand and his house falls (Matthew 7:26–27). That passage is not about salvation. It is about the difference between true faith and false faith.

You're slipping away bdavidc.
I had high hopes for you.

Matthew 7:24-27 doesn't mention being born again or faith.
Jesus is teaching that the wise ACT on His words.
ACT.
The foolish man does NOT ACT on His words and his house falls.

Jesus is saying that good works WILL SAVE US....KEEP US SAVED, I should say.

Plus,,,no such animal as TRUE FAITH...
one has faith or one does not have faith.
Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed is sufficient.

I had replied to you to keep studying because Jesus came for another reason that you did not state.
You said:
For the atonement of our sins.
To destroy the power of the devil.

Third reason?
To set up His kingdom (here on earth).

If you notice, Jesus only spoke about being born again ONE TIME.
How many times did Jesus speak of His Kingdom?
It was the central teaching of His ministry.
HOW to please God.
HOW to get to heaven.

The Bible is very clear: we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, if your faith is real, it will produce obedience to the Word of God. That is why James 1:22 says, “Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

Agreed.
Could we just be clear on this and stop with the BECAUSE WE WANT TO?
Could we say that obedience is necessary?
Romans 1:6 Paul wants to teach the obedience of faith even to the Gentiles.
(Just as the Jews knew it).

Matthew 7: 26 is not teaching that we are kept saved by good works. It is teaching that if you have no works, you were never saved to begin with.

Doesn't say this.
You're adding words to scripture.
This is not supposed to be done....Revelation.

It says: THE FOOLISH MAN DOES NOT ACT ON THE WORD OF JESUS....
AND HIS HOUSE FELL.

Works are the proof of the foundation. If there is no obedience, there is no real salvation not because you have to but because with you new life in Christ you natural just do good works because the Holy Spirit lives in you. No good works in you, then no Holy Spirit in you.

If we naturally do good works...
why do some fall away?
Why do I read that we could return to a life of sin and STILL BE SAVED?

Maybe it's time to state what Jesus taught....
and not some modern day illusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

You ask: “Does man lose his free will at salvation?”

No, it doesn’t take away free will. Salvation works in one’s heart. Ezekiel 36: 26–27 writes that God grants a new heart and puts His Spirit within a person so that they walk in His statutes. Paul confirms that it is God which “worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). This doesn’t mean a believer is incapable of sinning, but it does mean they are incapable of remaining in sin as if nothing happened. John wrote, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). The new nature is at war with the old, and the Father disciplines His children when they go astray (Hebrews 12:6).

You said: “But why finish off with A JESUS WHO ALLOWS SOMEONE TO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN IS NOT A SAVIOR AT ALL.”

I actually wrote it like this: “and a “jesus” who allows someone to remain in their sin is not a savior at all.”

The point still stands: A “jesus” (small “j” because it is not the real Jesus) who leaves a person in their sin is not the Savior of Scripture. The true Christ delivers us from sin’s penalty and power. This does not negate choice, but it proves that true salvation will always produce evidence of obedience. Meaning a real believer will repent when they mess up.

The above is not what I read from others.
I agree with you....

but, apparently, not every Christian does.

And herein lies the problem.

A split in the Christian faith....
that was NOT there in the early church.

I think we have a real problem.

 

[PS95]

The above is not what I read from others.
I agree with you....

but, apparently, not every Christian does.

And herein lies the problem.

A split in the Christian faith....
that was NOT there in the early church.

I think we have a real problem.

YES- we do have a problem, Grace. As I said earlier there are people here who teach differently. I can't deal with them. They are like broken records and refuse to reply to scriptures that don't fit their circular reasoning. They twist Paul and only read HALF of what he taught.
I think it's what Peter referred to.
Fortunately, on here I think there are more who oppose them than are like them. It can be hard to tell at first.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES- we do have a problem, Grace. As I said earlier there are people here who teach differently. I can't deal with them. They are like broken records and refuse to reply to scriptures that don't fit their circular reasoning. They twist Paul and only read HALF of what he taught.
I think it's what Peter referred to.
Fortunately, on here I think there are more who oppose them than are like them. It can be hard to tell at first.

I hope there are more that oppose.
I'm also on another Forum and sometimes I feel overwhelmed.
Happy to have met you and some others on here...
even if we're not going to agree 100% on everything....

 

[Cassandra]

Yes, yes yes!! The message of the Gospel is SO easy. When a man is born again he becomes a new creation 2 cor 5:17. God gives him a new heart Ez 36:26., "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh" and that new man will want to do His will. John 7:17 " If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

A relationship with Jesus is what saves. The closer we become to Him, the more we love Him, The more love the more obedience. Love is the fulfilling of the Law Roman 13:10
First to God

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
MAT.22.37-39.KJV

And to your neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10
…9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

We can go directly to Him there is no barrier, go boldly to the throne of grace. We can approach the Father in the Name of the Son.

 

[Behold]

 

[Behold]

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, yes yes!! The message of the Gospel is SO easy. When a man is born again he becomes a new creation 2 cor 5:17. God gives him a new heart Ez 36:26., "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh" and that new man will want to do His will. John 7:17 " If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

A relationship with Jesus is what saves. The closer we become to Him, the more we love Him, The more love the more obedience. Love is the fulfilling of the Law Roman 13:10
First to God

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
MAT.22.37-39.KJV

And to your neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10
…9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

We can go directly to Him there is no barrier, go boldly to the throne of grace. We can approach the Father in the Name of the Son.

Hi Cassandra
Beautiful words!
It reminds me of when I first became a believer way back when.

Then I began to find out some odd teachings by some and I had to dive headlong into theology.
There are some pretty odd beliefs out there.

Some pastors, Charles Stanley for one, teach that a person could even return to a life of sin and still be saved.

What do YOU think about this?
Does it make sense?

 

[GodsGrace]

View attachment 69428

Easy believism and cheap grace is better?

Is that what Jesus deserves?

 

[Behold]

 

[GodsGrace]

View attachment 69427

You're obsessed.
This is sick.

 

[GodsGrace]

View attachment 69430

Oh my.
That's at Lourdes in the South of France!
Been there 2X.
It was BEAUTIFUL !

Seeing so many believers in one place!
Singing songs of praise to God and His Mother!

May God be praised.

 

[GodsGrace]

SPIN
A Christian Rock Band

God must surely be pleased.

 

[Behold]

Easy believism and cheap grace is better?

Paul teaches that a sinner is Justified by Faith, without works or deeds of the Law.

So, a sinner comes to Jesus by Faith, and God accepts their faith as..."Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness".

One of the best ways to understand this is......."Jesus became my sin, and I became His Righteousness".

Paul teaches this as......"being Made righteous".
And this is caused by God giving the born again believer, "The Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness", and "The Gift of Eternal life".
And Paul teaches this as having become : "The righteosness of God, in Christ".

 

[GodsGrace]

Great light show !

Gotta love it !

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul teaches that a sinner is Justified by Faith, without works or deeds of the Law.

So, a sinner comes to Jesus by Faith, and God accepts their faith as..."Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness".

One of the best ways to understand this is......."Jesus became my sin, and I became His Righteousness".

Paul teaches this as......"being Made righteous".
And this is caused by God giving the born again believer, "The Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness", and "The Gift of Eternal life".
And Paul teaches this as having become : "The righteosness of God, in Christ".

I agree.