Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[Truth7t7]

Church fathers were not inspired, did not know much and contradicted each other often. And Irenaeus just repeated what he heard, in this regard.

The earliest full manuscript of Irenaeus is from the 7th century and it is just Latin translation. Earliest Greek manuscript is from the 10th century.

As reformers said - church fathers may be useful, but we reject them when they contradict the teachings of Scriptures. John, Paul, Peter, James etc. are more than Polycarp or Irenaeus.

And I Disagree With Your Biased Preterist opinions

 

[Truth7t7]

The confusion for the Church is believing heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God will be a physical kingdom that Christ will establish when He comes again. Looking for a physical, material kingdom on this earth is why the Pharisee's of Old did not believe Christ is the promised Messiah foretold to come.

Scripture clearly talks about a future kingdom, there will be a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, and it's described in great detail in Revelation Chapters 21-22

This present earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return 2 Peter 3:10-13, the New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, will be a completely New Creation Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:1-5

 

[rwb]

Scripture clearly talks about a future kingdom, there will be a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, and it's described in great detail in Revelation Chapters 21-22

Yes, it's the future Kingdom that shall come down to the new earth from Heaven. John writes it shall be AFTER the first heaven and earth have passed away. The future Kingdom of God shall be inhabited by immortal & incorruptible living souls who shall have immortal & incorruptible flesh with the breath of life that shall come from their spirits that God shall bring with Him.

Revelation 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

Q: Without any theological bias, just reading the text of the New Testament, what is the most objective eschatological view - preterism, historicism or futurism?

AI answer:
Short answer: preterism is the most textually immediate and least speculative reading of the New Testament’s eschatological passages; futurism is the most speculative; historicism lies between but requires broad, long-range correlations.

... (long introductions to each eschatological view left out)...

Why preterism is the most objective under a “read-the-text-only” rule:

• The New Testament repeatedly uses near‑term language (“soon,” “near,” “this generation,” “at hand”) and addresses contemporary crises of first‑century readers. Assigning those phrases to first‑century fulfillments adheres closely to authorial intent and the plain sense of the text without importing later historical constructs or distant future speculation.
• When restraint is the guiding principle (don’t add chronological scaffolding beyond what the text gives), preterist readings minimize extra‑textual assumptions.

----

Interesting. As the use of AI will grow, it may change how people view eschatology, if they will ask similar questions.

Are you of the impression that AI has a living spirit? Because the things of God must be spiritually discerned!

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

All people are living human souls when possessing mortal flesh & blood with the breath of life that is natural human spirit. Believer's spirits, unlike spirits in unbelievers, returns to God after our physical body dies, a living soul. Since the spirit in every man/woman who has been born again can never die, because we have Christ's promise that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, our mortal flesh & blood being marred by sin is destined to death and is not eternal. No man (except Jesus) shall receive a glorified human body of flesh until every dead human body is resurrected from the grave in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no more.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (flesh) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul.

After bodily death, our mortal flesh ceases to be a living soul because the spirit; breath of life has left our mortal body and returned to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust (flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (as living soul) shall return unto God who gave it.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The spirit of every born-again believer already has eternal/everlasting life that can never die. When our spirit returns to God after death of our mortal body, we, the spirit, of every born-again believer is still living souls in heaven, continuing to be the body of Christ in heaven but are as the angels of God without physical form. Believers will not be complete immortal & incorruptible living souls again until the resurrection and change that shall be on the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47-50 (KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Not only does our natural spirit transform to a spiritual body of Christ in heaven after death, our natural mortal, corruptible flesh shall also be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible, once again complete living souls fit for life with Christ forever on the new earth when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

Old Testament saints could not ascend to heaven after death until after Christ came to defeat sin through His shed blood on the cross and conquer the power of death by resurrecting from the grave. The Old Covenant saints had to wait until Christ came to free them from bondage of the grave, which He did before He ascended to heaven. After rescuing the OC saints from the power of death, He gave gifts to the Church that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete as the gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11-13 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

In the seed analogy, what does the life contained in the seed body represent as far as it's counterpart in us?

 

[rwb]

In the seed analogy, what does the life contained in the seed body represent as far as it's counterpart in us?

I'm not really sure what you're asking?

 

[IndianaRob]

I'm not really sure what you're asking?

Paul's seed analogy is used to explain how the resurrection works. Inside a seed there is life, and that life is given a body—the seed body. The life is not the seed body, and the seed body is not the life. When the seed body is planted and watered, it dies and rots. At that point, the life within it is given a new body—the plant.

So my question is: in this analogy, what does the life inside the seed body represent in us? In other words, what is the life in us that corresponds to the life in the seed body?

 

[rwb]

Paul's seed analogy is used to explain how the resurrection works. Inside a seed there is life, and that life is given a body—the seed body. The life is not the seed body, and the seed body is not the life. When the seed body is planted and watered, it dies and rots. At that point, the life within it is given a new body—the plant.

So my question is: in this analogy, what does the life inside the seed body represent in us? In other words, what is the life in us that corresponds to the life in the seed body?

If we belong to the ONE Seed (Christ) it means we have everlasting/eternal life through Him and are part of the body of Christ spiritually, through Christ's Spirit in us. The life we have through the Seed of Christ in us is not our physical life, it is spiritual life. In Him death of our physical body cannot hurt us, because in death our living spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us leaves our natural body and ascends to heaven a spiritual body. Then when the end comes when the fullness of the Kingdom of God is delivered up to the Father, then the last enemy (death) shall be swallowed up in victory. And our natural body of flesh too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible through Christ's Spirit in us and reunited with our eternal spirit that returned with Christ, and we shall once again be complete living souls fit for everlasting life on the new earth.

 

[IndianaRob]

If we belong to the ONE Seed (Christ) it means we have everlasting/eternal life through Him and are part of the body of Christ spiritually, through Christ's Spirit in us. The life we have through the Seed of Christ in us is not our physical life, it is spiritual life. In Him death of our physical body cannot hurt us, because in death our living spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us leaves our natural body and ascends to heaven a spiritual body. Then when the end comes when the fullness of the Kingdom of God is delivered up to the Father, then the last enemy (death) shall be swallowed up in victory. And our natural body of flesh too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible through Christ's Spirit in us and reunited with our eternal spirit that returned with Christ, and we shall once again be complete living souls fit for everlasting life on the new earth.

Can you show me the resurrection of the seed body in Paul’s analogy?

 

[rwb]

Can you show me the resurrection of the seed body in Paul’s analogy?

Are you speaking of the "first resurrection" through the Seed of Christ? Because Scripture only speaks of (1) the "first resurrection" which pertains to the bodily resurrection of Christ, and (2) the resurrection of every human body that has physically died in an hour that is coming on the last day. When writing to the Corinthians, Paul gives us understanding of both.

What does Paul mean when he longs to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Cor 5)

 

[IndianaRob]

Are you speaking of the "first resurrection" through the Seed of Christ? Because Scripture only speaks of (1) the "first resurrection" which pertains to the bodily resurrection of Christ, and (2) the resurrection of every human body that has physically died in an hour that is coming on the last day. When writing to the Corinthians, Paul gives us understanding of both.

What does Paul mean when he longs to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Cor 5)

No I'm talking about Paul's seed analogy. I'm asking where does analogy show the seeds body being resurrected.

 

[rwb]

No I'm talking about Paul's seed analogy. I'm asking where does analogy show the seeds body being resurrected.

What do you mean by "seeds body"?

 

[IndianaRob]

What do you mean by "seeds body"?

A seed has three main parts:

1. Seed Coat (body)
   • Protective outer covering.
   • Shields the seed from physical damage, drying out, and infection.
2. Embryo (life)
   • The young plant inside the seed.
   • Made up of:
     • Radicle → will develop into the root.
     • Plumule → will develop into the shoot (stem and leaves).
     • Cotyledons → seed leaves, often store nutrients for the embryo.
3. Endosperm (food)
   • A food reserve made of starch, proteins, or fats.
   • Provides nourishment for the embryo during germination.

The seed coat is the body that the embryo lives in.

 

[rwb]

A seed has three main parts:

1. Seed Coat (body)
   • Protective outer covering.
   • Shields the seed from physical damage, drying out, and infection.
2. Embryo (life)
   • The young plant inside the seed.
   • Made up of:
     • Radicle → will develop into the root.
     • Plumule → will develop into the shoot (stem and leaves).
     • Cotyledons → seed leaves, often store nutrients for the embryo.
3. Endosperm (food)
   • A food reserve made of starch, proteins, or fats.
   • Provides nourishment for the embryo during germination.

The seed coat is the body that the embryo lives in.

In his analogy of seeds Paul speaks of the seeds (as many) of Abraham as children of the flesh, and of those being born again of Abraham's one supernatural SEED that is Christ. Those born of the flesh (natural seeds) are not the children of God, but those born again of the Spirit (supernatural SEED) belong to the Kingdom of God. It has nothing to do with how plants live and develop. Seed/seeds in Paul's analogy points to being natural man of the flesh, or supernatural man of the Spirit of Christ.

The natural seed of man brings natural life to the body through his natural spirit. The Bible tells us that every human spirit is born with natural life that came from the seeds of flesh. The natural seeds don't have to be resurrected to have life, we are born alive already. As I've already said we must be born again if we desire to go from natural man of flesh to supernatural man of Christ's Spirit.

When going from natural spirit of flesh destined to death to supernatural spirit destined to everlasting life, our spirit within must be quickened (not resurrected), or made alive through His Spirit, not made alive AGAIN because our spirit is already naturally alive. Because there are none righteous, none who seek God before being born again, we are in fact dead men/women walking according to natural man of flesh.

The way man is born again is not by being resurrected, but by being made spiritually alive (quickened) by the Holy Spirit. When we are born again of Christ's Spirit, we have part in His resurrection life that is the "first resurrection" from the dead to never die again. To be born again is not to be resurrected, the spirit in us being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins needs only to be made spiritually alive through the Holy Spirit to both know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

Our natural spirit (seed) attains supernatural spiritual life through the resurrection life of Christ, the "first resurrection." Our spirit has passed from death to eternal life through Christ's Spirit in us and can never die. At the end of the age on the last day if we have died when Christ comes again, we shall be bodily resurrected from the graves immortal & incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air. Believers still physically alive at His coming again shall be raised up and changed with them and we shall all be with the Lord forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A person can’t have the Holy Spirit without having the Spirit of Christ, because if you don’t have the Spirit of Christ, you are not His (you are not saved). You don’t have access to the Holy Spirit apart from Christ. That is exactly what Romans 8:9 is telling us.

What does this even mean? Tell me exactly what your understanding is of us having the Spirit of Christ. What exactly do you believe the Spirit of Christ is?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't endorse anything from full preterism. I'm as against full preterism as much as I am against futurism. I believe the cross and resurrection was everything because that's what the bible teaches.

In my view your belief is a version of full preterism because you do not believe in the future blessed hope of the future appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ at which time the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and at which time He will have His own gathered to Him in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm glad to hear you do not agree with full preterits. When you say you are also against futurism, are you saying that when one believes Christ died on the cross and resurrected from the dead our physical body, like our born-again spirit possesses everlasting life?

He does not believe in the future bodily second coming of Jesus Christ and he does not believe in the future mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ and our being gathered to Christ when He comes. So, while he may not agree with typical full preterists about everything, he still believes in his own version of full preterism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nothing preterist whatsoever regarding my explanation

Read what I say more carefully. I'm not saying that you believe the same thing that preterists do in the sense of seeing the things we're talking about as being fulfilled in the past. I'm just saying that your thinking is similar to theirs in the sense that you think it's talking about seven literal hills or mountains just like they do. But, the symbolic woman does not sit on literal things. She sits on symbolic things like the many waters and the beast with seven heads and ten horns.

Jerusalem presently sits upon seven hills/mounts, and the woman is Jerusalem the great city, you've seen my posting several times regarding Jerusalem being the whore, here it is again

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia.
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

While the great city Babylon has a few things in common with earthly Jerusalem, there are also differences. For example, earthly Jerusalem does not and never has reigned over the kings of the earth. And earthly Jerusalem is not the mother of harlots (Rev 17:5). It is just one of many harlots. Babylon encompasses much more than just Jerusalem. It is said to be the hold of EVERY foul spirit (Rev 18:2). That doesn't describe Jerusalem. Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem and is a global entity.

 

[Truth7t7]

In my view your belief is a version of full preterism because you do not believe in the future blessed hope of the future appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ at which time the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and at which time He will have His own gathered to Him in the air.

Yes the poster is a "Full Preterist" who denies the bodily resurrection and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes the poster is a "Full Preterist" who denies the bodily resurrection and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Right. He just doesn't have the typical preterist belief that Jesus returned in 70 AD, but instead thinks His second coming was His resurrection, which obviously is not true.