Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Truth7t7]

Why aren't you dealing with verse 17 as well? Is that not meaning any of those in verse 16 left of the nations which came against Jerusalem? Verse 17 indicates that after verse 12 was fulfilled first, those remaining of the nations are commanded to come up year to year, which, BTW, is impossible to fulfill in a single day. But if they refuse to come up, upon them will be no rain, thus a punishment of some kind. Does it sound reasonable that one can still be threatened with punishments after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled?

Keeping in mind, you clearly have some of Zechariah 14 meaning after the time 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. And now you have to explain how verse 17 fits after verse 12 is fulfilled. Now you have to explain how there can still be a time period after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled in order to prevent what is recorded in verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever. Until you reconcile that first, you have failed to prove that you are interpreting all of Zechariah 14 correctly. But I do agree you are interpreting most of Zechariah 14 correctly, except most of Zechariah 14 is not all of Zechariah 14.

In my view it is verse 17 that proves Premil since verse 17 requires a period of time after verse 12 is fulfilled first, in order to prevent verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever. Clearly then, verse 17 is meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment, before the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28 which follows after the time of the great white throne judgment. therefore, the only time period that can prevent verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever, is the millennium. Otherwise, we have no choice but to apply this part to all of eternity---even upon them shall be no rain. Thus a punishment of some kind since it can't be meaning a blessing of some kind instead.

(The Day Of The Lord) Zechariah 14:1 & 12 and 2 Peter 3:10KJV (The End Of This Earth By Fire) As The Unsaved World Is Consumed By This Fire As They Are Standing On Their Feet (The End)

(Destroyed Them All) By The Lord's Fire At His Return

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[claninja]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

Despite the gospels never mentioning the phrase "day of the Lord" nor defining it, I'm assuming we can agree that the "day of the Lord" is in some sense related, at least in part, to the "coming of the son of man of on the clouds" from the Olivet discourse. The "coming of the son of man on the clouds" occurs post the tribulation, and the signs in the sky WITHIN the context of the olivet discourse.

With that in mind, I think that what the OP doesn't originally address, in regards to the olivet discourse of matthew, is vs 37-39:

• As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man

Where does "eating, drinking, and marrying; oblivious of what's going to happen" fit chronologically within Matthew 24:4-31?

 

[Davy]

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

....

Brethren in Christ:
Truth7t7, with his idea of a 'parallel' reading of Zechariah 14:16 with Isaiah 4 is not one at all. It's obvious to me that he simply went looking for Bible Scripture that mentioned the idea of 'burning', and simply tried... to apply that to Zechariah 14:16 when 'burning' is NOT even the subject of that Zechariah 14:16 verse at all.

Instead, the subject of the Zechariah 14:16 verse is about Christ's enemies that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world that are NOT destroyed. After that day they will be required to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, Lord Jesus Christ, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (The Feast of Tabernacles was ordained for Israel to commemorate Israel's wandering in the wilderness when they made temporary shelters, also called booths, made of palm leaves and willow trees.)

The Isaiah 4 Scripture is hard-linked back to the Isaiah 3 Chapter in subject. It is about the haughty leaders of Israel back in the days of Isaiah, with a future prophecy given of God's punishment in final for them and the wicked at JERUSALEM. There is no mention of a battle against an army that comes up against Jerusalem on the last day, like the Zech.14:16 verse points to instead.

The following example I give reveals how important it is to stay with the FLOW of God's written Word, and not simply jump around in God's Word looking for a verse to try and support a pet theory.

Isa 3:14-4:6
14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of His people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

Those "ancients of His people" represent the leaders of Judah at Jerusalem. That is who God is pointing this too, as at this time they were rebellious against Him. That symbolic "vineyard" is further explained to represent the ten tribe "house of Israel" in the later Isaiah 5 Chapter. It is also directly related to Jesus' parable of Matthew 21 about the husbandmen over the vineyard that profaned it by rejecting Jesus as The Christ, and thus the fruits of that vineyard would be produced by another nation (i.e., Christ's Church).

15 "What mean ye that ye beat My people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?" saith the LORD GOD of hosts.

16 Moreover the LORD saith, "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

In what day? On the "day of the Lord". That is the day God is pointing to in final. That is the day of Christ's future return. And once again, this is NOT about the leftovers of the pagan armies that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day at the battle of Armageddon (Rev.19).

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21 The rings, and nose jewels,
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Is that idea of "burning" meant as the literal burning of 2 Peter 3:10-11? Not specifically, but it is pointing to the idea of what's pleasant to the eyes that is of the world.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

Not the armies that come up against Jerusalem, but God instead is pointing to His people that are rebellious being those who will fall by the sword.

26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

Whose gates? Jerusalem's gates. This is a rebuke against JERUSALEM by God on that day.

The subject of Isaiah 3 Chapter continues...

Isaiah 4:6
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by Thy name, to take away our reproach.

Above, God switches gears, so to speak, and begins speaking of His Faithful servants. The "one man" represents our Lord Jesus Christ. The "seven women" represent Christ's elect Church. The name those of Christ are called is 'Christian', which means a disciple of Jesus Christ.

2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

The escaped idea is about how Christ will protect His elect on that day. The BRANCH per Isaiah 11 and Zech.6 is another title for Lord Jesus Christ.

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

The Zechariah 14:16-21 Scripture does not show those rebellious in that future time are among those who's names are written in the Book of Life. They instead still show rebellion against Christ with not coming up to Jerusalem to worship and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life represent those who will reign... with Lord Jesus Christ in that time, over those rebellious nations with the "rod of iron" (Psalms 2; Revelation 2:26-27; Revelation 19:15).

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

That is... about the cleansing of God's people that were rebellious, ending all strife and wickedness on earth, but not the rebelliousness of the nations that will still refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship Christ per Zechariah 14:16-21.

5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
KJV

The above is about Christ's elect dwelling in peace and under God's shadow in final at Jerusalem.

So we see here there is actually no direct 'parallel' of Isaiah 4:3-4 to Zechariah 14:16-21. Truth7t7 is merely trying to drum up fodder as proof. The only relation of Zechariah 14:16 to the above "spirit of burning" is about those among those nations THAT DID NOT SURVIVE God's consuming fire, though they are not specifically mentioned in that verse.

 

[Truth7t7]

Brethren in Christ:
Truth7t7, with his idea of a 'parallel' reading of Zechariah 14:16 with Isaiah 4 is not one at all. It's obvious to me that he simply went looking for Bible Scripture that mentioned the idea of 'burning', and simply tried... to apply that to Zechariah 14:16 when 'burning' is NOT even the subject of that Zechariah 14:16 verse at all.

Instead, the subject of the Zechariah 14:16 verse is about Christ's enemies that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world that are NOT destroyed. After that day they will be required to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, Lord Jesus Christ, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (The Feast of Tabernacles was ordained for Israel to commemorate Israel's wandering in the wilderness when they made temporary shelters, also called booths, made of palm leaves and willow trees.)

The Isaiah 4 Scripture is hard-linked back to the Isaiah 3 Chapter in subject. It is about the haughty leaders of Israel back in the days of Isaiah, with a future prophecy given of God's punishment in final for them and the wicked at JERUSALEM. There is no mention of a battle against an army that comes up against Jerusalem on the last day, like the Zech.14:16 verse points to instead.

The following example I give reveals how important it is to stay with the FLOW of God's written Word, and not simply jump around in God's Word looking for a verse to try and support a pet theory.

Isa 3:14-4:6
14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of His people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

Those "ancients of His people" represent the leaders of Judah at Jerusalem. That is who God is pointing this too, as at this time they were rebellious against Him. That symbolic "vineyard" is further explained to represent the ten tribe "house of Israel" in the later Isaiah 5 Chapter. It is also directly related to Jesus' parable of Matthew 21 about the husbandmen over the vineyard that profaned it by rejecting Jesus as The Christ, and thus the fruits of that vineyard would be produced by another nation (i.e., Christ's Church).

15 "What mean ye that ye beat My people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?" saith the LORD GOD of hosts.

16 Moreover the LORD saith, "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

In what day? On the "day of the Lord". That is the day God is pointing to in final. That is the day of Christ's future return. And once again, this is NOT about the leftovers of the pagan armies that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day at the battle of Armageddon (Rev.19).

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21 The rings, and nose jewels,
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Is that idea of "burning" meant as the literal burning of 2 Peter 3:10-11? Not specifically, but it is pointing to the idea of what's pleasant to the eyes that is of the world.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

Not the armies that come up against Jerusalem, but God instead is pointing to His people that are rebellious being those who will fall by the sword.

26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

Whose gates? Jerusalem's gates. This is a rebuke against JERUSALEM by God on that day.

The subject of Isaiah 3 Chapter continues...

Isaiah 4:6
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by Thy name, to take away our reproach.

Above, God switches gears, so to speak, and begins speaking of His Faithful servants. The "one man" represents our Lord Jesus Christ. The "seven women" represent Christ's elect Church. The name those of Christ are called is 'Christian', which means a disciple of Jesus Christ.

2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

The escaped idea is about how Christ will protect His elect on that day. The BRANCH per Isaiah 11 and Zech.6 is another title for Lord Jesus Christ.

3

Jesus Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, At This Time The Resurrection Of "All" Takes Place (Then Cometh The End)

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not arguing against what you submitted. I fully agree with you. Except I don't take it to be involving a literal temple, in the event you do. I'm arguing against the idea that great tribulation begins with the DOTL, that great tribulation involves the DOTL. No it doesn't, and the OP clearly proves it doesn't. And since great tribulation can't be involving the DOTL, this tells us that great tribulation can't be involving God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, but must be involving satan's wrath upon the church in it's closing days leading up to the end of this age. thus the 42 month reign of the beast, and not involving 70 AD instead.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I know that you believe this passage relates to what happened in 70 AD (except for Jews being led captive to all nations and the times of the Gentiles). The passage describes "great distress", which is no different than "great tribulation", and "wrath" occurring in Judea and especially in Jerusalem. Yet, we agree that this passage is not about the DOTL.

You are trying to argue that since great tribulation doesn't begin with or involve the DOTL then "great tribulation can't be involving God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century". That contradicts your understanding of the above passage from Luke 21, does it not? That passage describes God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, yet you are apparently trying to say that God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century can't be referred to as great tribulation. Yet, Jesus Himself described it as "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people". So, the claim you are making in this thread contradicts what Jesus Himself said in Luke 21:20-24 since God's wrath that occurred in 70 AD upon unbelieving Jews involved great tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Truth7t7 EVADED the Greek word stoicheion for "elements" in the 2 Peter 3 Scripture which is what he has been trying... to claim means earthly material matter, when that is NOT what Greek stoicheion means.

It CAN mean that, so why are you being so dishonest here? The Greek word stoicheion can refer to material matter and the context of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is very clearly in relation to material things being burned up. So, why are you trying to change the context of the passage? Do you also deny that it's talking about the physical earth and the material heavens being burned up and dissolved?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pt 3:5-7 (NIV)

Historically, technically, our planet was not formed from waters. The waters in Genesis are a mythological concept, not science. Similarly, the Flood of Noah was not technically over the whole planet, but happened in Mesopotamia.

So, in the similar way, the fire did not need to be literal, but symbolic (however, Romans were known for using fiery shots from catapults massively, it looked like fire falling from heaven - so who knows what Peter saw in some vision).

This is shameful stuff. Please get out of here with your pagan, secular science influenced nonsense that denies the truth of holy scripture. The flood of Noah's day was clearly global and there is absolutely nothing in the text in 2 Peter 3 to suggest that Peter was being anything but literal in relation to the heavens and the physical earth that we live on being literally burned with fire. If you think that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is not meant to be taken literally in relation to literal destruction by fire, do you say the same thing about the following passage about the same event...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Do you think the "sudden destruction" that Paul referenced in relation to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night is not physical destruction from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Truth7t7 , you might as well tell them just how you wrongly believe God is going to literally destroy this whole earth, turning it into some kind of asteroid belt, on that day, when the Scripture in the Greek actually points to God cleansing the SURFACE of this earth on that day.

I actually agree that it's the surface of the earth that will be burned up rather than the earth being completely annihilated by fire, but why do you try to claim that the elements are not material elements that will be literally dissolved by fire when you do acknowledge that it's talking about the surface of this physical earth being burned up? There's no consistency in your view and it's clearly affected by doctrinal bias.

 

[HealthyShape]

secular science influenced nonsense that denies the truth of holy scripture.

You have quite inconsistent stance.

1. You stick to the literal reading of the Old Testament, even though it directly contradicts evidence and science.
2. You deny the words of the New Testament about the second coming, because there is no complete historical record of everything that was said to happen in that time.

Biased, selective and it seems you believe the OT more than the NT for some reason...

 

[Davy]

Jesus Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, At This Time The Resurrection Of "All" Takes Place (Then Cometh The End)

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

....

Brethren in Christ:
Truth7t7 simply has 'destruction on the mind' syndrome. He won't listen to others, and won't hear what the Zechariah 14:16-21 Scripture clearly states involving WORSHIP OF CHRIST AFTER HIS RETURN, which is not about destruction on the "day of the Lord". His response above reveals a heavy preaching of destruction themes that the preacher's he's been listening to have put into his mind so that he has difficulty in focus about Scripture that reveals Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over the wicked, i.e., those nations that are not destroyed which will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. What Truth7t7 is experiencing is a classic case of religious brainwashing.

 

[Truth7t7]

Brethren in Christ:
Truth7t7 simply has 'destruction on the mind' syndrome. He won't listen to others, and won't hear what the Zechariah 14:16-21 Scripture clearly states involving WORSHIP OF CHRIST AFTER HIS RETURN, which is not about destruction on the "day of the Lord". His response above reveals a heavy preaching of destruction themes that the preacher's he's been listening to have put into his mind so that he has difficulty in focus about Scripture that reveals Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over the wicked, i.e., those nations that are not destroyed which will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. What Truth7t7 is experiencing is a classic case of religious brainwashing.

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Davy]

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord
....

Like I had said in my previous post, Truth7t7 has "destruction on the mind" syndrome having listened to those deceived preachers he heeds. So of course all he can do is repeat his FALSE affirmations like the Zech.14:16-21 is a parallel to the Isaiah 4:3-4 Scripture WHEN IT IS NOT.

(In case someone doesn't know what an 'affirmation' is, it means making a claim that something is true, when it is not proven to be true. Like, "I hope to win a million dollars playing the Lottery." That's a type of affirmation. It is hoped... to be true, but it has not yet happened or been proven to be true. Affirmations are strongly tied to the idea of HOPE.)

Thus Truth7t7 is only pushing an affirmation about Zech.14 and Isaiah 4 being in parallel with each other. It hasn't been proven, nor can it be proven, simply because Zechariah 14:16-21 is not speaking of 'burning' on the last day, but what the wicked who are left over will be required to do after Christ's return. As one can easily see with Truth7t7's posts, he purposefully OMITS those Zech.14:16-21 points about the unsaved being required to go up and worship The KING and keep the Feast of Tabernacles, showing that is AFTER Christ has returned in the future.

Why is Truth7t7 omitting the actual subject of those Zech.14:16-21 verses? It's because he has been taught to do that by those doctrines of men he instead listens to. To admit the actual subject content of those Zech.14:16-21 verses means the CONTINUED existence of the WICKED after Christ's future return, an idea which those on men's false doctrine of Amillennialism are against.

 

[amigo de christo]

or we can listen to jesus

Matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The great trib immediately follows the man of sin committing the abomination which causes desolation.

Who would ever have thought ,
i say again
who would ever have thought we had seen the day
when many in wool preach an anti christ message it calls love
and has made void the one true gospel of BELEIVE IN CHRIST to be saved .
WHO would ever have thought
i say again
Who would ever have thought this broad path sin accepting unbeleif accepting
message of what it calleth love
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNTO THE WORLD and her false religoins , as well as much of christendom
BY MEN IN WOOL . But it was . IT was DONE from WITHIN .
As judas who was as one within betrayed CHRIST
so too will these merged anti christs betray the true sheep . THAT DAY draws nigh too .
Better to have suffered and even died for Christ
than to have followed this delusion . NOT LOOKING GOOD my friend . OH i say NOT LOOKING GOOD at all
So allow me some parting words
The whores ecumincal cup has been poured and the false religoins are buying into it
as has much of christendom . And they drink its love punch down as though it is the solutoin for world peace .
BUT WOE TO THEM ALL on the DAY OF THE LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY and OF THE LAMB . Yea , i say woe wail
for much wailing shalll then be heard by them .

 

[Davidpt]

(The Day Of The Lord) Zechariah 14:1 & 12 and 2 Peter 3:10KJV (The End Of This Earth By Fire) As The Unsaved World Is Consumed By This Fire As They Are Standing On Their Feet (The End)

(Destroyed Them All) By The Lord's Fire At His Return

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain .



Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you .


You would have us believe something preposterous, that Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment. That Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. That throughout all of eternity this threat continues----whoso will not come up---even upon them shall be no rain---the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you


To be denied rain is not a blessing. It is judgment and involves the wrath of God. No way in a million years does Zechariah 14:16-17 fit after the time of the GWTJ, fit after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. Yet you would have us believe that it does, the fact you have Zechariah 14:16-17 meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. I guess one shouldn't be surprised that you do. Look how you interpret the 70 weeks, for example, as in nonsensical. And you continue that pattern with some of Zechariah 14.

BTW, to remain in Jerusalem(Isaiah 4) vs come up to Jerusalem(Zechariah 14) are not the same thing. The former are occupants, the latter are visitors. Those meant in Zechariah 14:16-17 are not occupants of Jerusalem, they are visitors.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


BTW, those in verse 11 are not meaning anyone in Zechariah 14 that might refuse to come up, but could be meaning those that don't refuse to come up. The ones in opposition to coming up are meaning those in verse 12. Except they don't perish until after the millennium during satan's little season.

Verse 11 is meaning during Zechariah 14:16-17, yet your interpretation of portions of Zechariah 14 ignore verse 12. Verse 12 is not meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. It is meaning before those things are fulfilled. Isaiah 60:11 is involving the time of the NHNE. We can know that by comparing to Revelation 21:24-26, for one. And right in the midst of NHNE context there is then this--Isaiah 60:12. But not meaning after the GWTJ is fulfilled, but meaning before the GWTJ is fulfilled.

Clearly then, verse 11 is involving the time of the millennium during the NHNE. We can know that based on verse 12 since that verse has to fit before the time of the GWTJ, not after. And that Revelation 21:24-26 already proves verse 11 is meaning during the NHNE. Therefore, the millennium is the beginning of the everlasting NHNE. Except the NHNE are not instantaneous, but are a process and not in it's final form until after the time of the GTWJ when 1 Corinthians 15:28 will have been fulfilled soon after. Therefore, there is a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:24. And that Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, fits the gap.

 

[amigo de christo]

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain .



Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you .


You would have us believe something preposterous, that Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment. That Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. That throughout all of eternity this threat continues----whoso will not come up---even upon them shall be no rain---the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you


To be denied rain is not a blessing. It is judgment and involves the wrath of God. No way in a million years does Zechariah 14:16-17 fit after the time of the GWTJ, fit after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. Yet you would have us believe that it does, the fact you have Zechariah 14:16-17 meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. I guess one shouldn't be surprised that you do. Look how you interpret the 70 weeks, for example, as in nonsensical. And you continue that pattern with some of Zechariah 14.

BTW, to remain in Jerusalem(Isaiah 4) vs come up to Jerusalem(Zechariah 14) are not the same thing. The former are occupants, the latter are visitors. Those meant in Zechariah 14:16-17 are not occupants of Jerusalem, they are visitors.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.



Verse 11 is meaning during Zechariah 14:16-17, yet you ignore verse 12. Verse 12 is not meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. It is meaning before those things are fulfilled. Isaiah 60:11 is involving the time of the NHNE. We can know that by comparing to Revelation 21, for one. And right in the midst of NHNE context there is then this--Isaiah 60:11. But not meaning after the GWTJ is fulfilled, but meaning before the GWTJ is fulfilled.

Clearly then, verse 11 is involving the time of the millennium during the NHNE. We can know that based on verse 12 since that verse has to fit before the time of the GWTJ, not after. And that Revelation 21 already proves verse 11 is meaning during the NHNE. Therefore, the millennium is the beginning of the everlasting NHNE. Except the NHNE are not instantaneous, but are a process and not in it's final form until after the time of the GTWJ when 1 Corinthians 15:28 will have been fulfilled soon after. Therefore, there is a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:24.

On those feet David Pt
The influence of the well favored HO have risen greatly .
She a HO , so dont go with her flow . expose the ecumincal movment and let all who name the NAME OF JESUS
get outta any church that in any way follows it .

 

[amigo de christo]

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain .



Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you .


You would have us believe something preposterous, that Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment. That Zechariah 14:17 is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. That throughout all of eternity this threat continues----whoso will not come up---even upon them shall be no rain---the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit ; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you


To be denied rain is not a blessing. It is judgment and involves the wrath of God. No way in a million years does Zechariah 14:16-17 fit after the time of the GWTJ, fit after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. Yet you would have us believe that it does, the fact you have Zechariah 14:16-17 meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. I guess one shouldn't be surprised that you do. Look how you interpret the 70 weeks, for example, as in nonsensical. And you continue that pattern with some of Zechariah 14.

BTW, to remain in Jerusalem(Isaiah 4) vs come up to Jerusalem(Zechariah 14) are not the same thing. The former are occupants, the latter are visitors. Those meant in Zechariah 14:16-17 are not occupants of Jerusalem, they are visitors.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.



Verse 11 is meaning during Zechariah 14:16-17, yet you ignore verse 12. Verse 12 is not meaning after the time of the GWTJ, after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. It is meaning before those things are fulfilled. Isaiah 60:11 is involving the time of the NHNE. We can know that by comparing to Revelation 21, for one. And right in the midst of NHNE context there is then this--Isaiah 60:11. But not meaning after the GWTJ is fulfilled, but meaning before the GWTJ is fulfilled.

Clearly then, verse 11 is involving the time of the millennium during the NHNE. We can know that based on verse 12 since that verse has to fit before the time of the GWTJ, not after. And that Revelation 21 already proves verse 11 is meaning during the NHNE. Therefore, the millennium is the beginning of the everlasting NHNE. Except the NHNE are not instantaneous, but are a process and not in it's final form until after the time of the GTWJ when 1 Corinthians 15:28 will have been fulfilled soon after. Therefore, there is a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:24.

Who would ever have thought ,
i say again
who would ever have thought we had seen the day
when many in wool preach an anti christ message it calls love
and has made void the one true gospel of BELEIVE IN CHRIST to be saved .
WHO would ever have thought
i say again
Who would ever have thought this broad path sin accepting unbeleif accepting
message of what it calleth love
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNTO THE WORLD and her false religoins , as well as much of christendom
BY MEN IN WOOL . But it was . IT was DONE from WITHIN .
As judas who was as one within betrayed CHRIST
so too will these merged anti christs betray the true sheep . THAT DAY draws nigh too .
Better to have suffered and even died for Christ
than to have followed this delusion . NOT LOOKING GOOD my friend . OH i say NOT LOOKING GOOD at all
So allow me some parting words
The whores ecumincal cup has been poured and the false religoins are buying into it
as has much of christendom . And they drink its love punch down as though it is the solutoin for world peace .
BUT WOE TO THEM ALL on the DAY OF THE LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY and OF THE LAMB . Yea , i say woe wail
for much wailing shalll then be heard by them .

 

[Davidpt]

Who would ever have thought ,
i say again
who would ever have thought we had seen the day
when many in wool preach an anti christ message it calls love
and has made void the one true gospel of BELEIVE IN CHRIST to be saved .
WHO would ever have thought
i say again
Who would ever have thought this broad path sin accepting unbeleif accepting
message of what it calleth love
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNTO THE WORLD and her false religoins , as well as much of christendom
BY MEN IN WOOL . But it was . IT was DONE from WITHIN .
As judas who was as one within betrayed CHRIST
so too will these merged anti christs betray the true sheep . THAT DAY draws nigh too .
Better to have suffered and even died for Christ
than to have followed this delusion . NOT LOOKING GOOD my friend . OH i say NOT LOOKING GOOD at all
So allow me some parting words
The whores ecumincal cup has been poured and the false religoins are buying into it
as has much of christendom . And they drink its love punch down as though it is the solutoin for world peace .
BUT WOE TO THEM ALL on the DAY OF THE LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY and OF THE LAMB . Yea , i say woe wail
for much wailing shalll then be heard by them .

I have no idea who you are applying these things to, to me or to someone else?

 

[amigo de christo]

I have no idea who you are applying these things to, to me or to someone else?

not to you , its just a reminder . Just wondering do you agree with what i wrote .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have quite inconsistent stance.

1. You stick to the literal reading of the Old Testament, even though it directly contradicts evidence and science.

What are you talking about? Are you incapable of speaking clearly? Stop being vague.

2. You deny the words of the New Testament about the second coming, because there is no complete historical record of everything that was said to happen in that time.

Biased, selective and it seems you believe the OT more than the NT for some reason...

LOL. The last thing anyone should ever accuse me of is believing the OT more than the NT when I have to tell Premills constantly that they should allow the NT to shine light on the OT for them.

You are the one who denies the words of the NT about the second coming. It very clearly teaches that Jesus will come in like manner as He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11). That has not yet occurred. It very clearly teaches that when He comes the heavens and the earth will be burned up. That clearly has not yet occurred. It very clearly teaches that when He comes all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17) and we will be gathered to Him in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). That has clearly not yet happened. So, you have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about.

 

[HealthyShape]

What are you talking about? Are you incapable of speaking clearly? Stop being vague.

Genesis stories.

LOL. The last thing anyone should ever accuse me of is believing the OT more than the OT when I have to tell Premills constantly that they should allow the NT to shine light on the OT for them.

You believe the OT stories even though they contradict science and evidence. But you do not believe the NT teachings just because there is a lack of historical record. Not a contradiction, just a lack of evidence. Therefore, you believe the OT more strongly.

You are the one who denies the words of the NT about the second coming. It very clearly teaches that Jesus will come in like manner as He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11). That has not yet occurred. It very clearly teaches that when He comes the heavens and the earth will be burned up. That clearly has not yet occurred. It very clearly teaches that when He comes all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17) and we will be gathered to Him in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). That has clearly not yet happened. So, you have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about.

It also clearly teaches that it will happen in the first century generation. Now what?