Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[TribulationSigns]

Sure shows being possessed

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Question WMP, only because I don't know what angle he is coming from (and has me on ignore) but is it all the angels/spirits/devils (as mentioned in the scripture) considered to be the same earthly origin? Referring to either men or their own man spirits sort of thing?

I cant wrap my mind around this.

First, we need to clear the misconception about Christians be able to be "demon-possessed." No, a "true" Christian cannot be demon-possessed, because when someone becomes born again, or born from above, our body becomes a Holy Temple of God. And He, in the form of the Holy Spirit, comes to dwell there within us. And there can be no communion of the spirit of Satan and the Spirit of God in the same Temple.

2nd Corinthians 6:16

• "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The Holy Temple has no concord or agreement with Belial that they can dwell together. For God and Satan cannot co-exist together in this Holy Temple. They are adversaries, diverse spirits, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

When we become saved, the spirit of Satan is very literally Cast Out! Truly, this is what the miracles Christ did of casting out demons "signified." That we were loosed and made free from the bondage that Satan held over our bodies. And in the Spirit of Christ Satan can no longer rule within us. It is an Oxymoron to claim someone is a Christian, and also Satan possessed. For you cannot be Christ-possessed and Satan-possessed at the same time. You are either saved and free from bondage to Satan, or you are not.

Possession: 1300–50; ME < L possessiōn- (s. of possessiō).​

to have ownership; Have as property; have control over; having no willpower; being controlled by passion or supernatural forces; holding occupancy; having dominion; spiritual actuation; Having custody; The state of being under the dominion of evil spirits.​

None of these things could describe a Christian. A Christian is a slave of bondservant of God, never Satan or his minions. Demon possession means we "are a slave" of Satan, where he rules over us. He has dominion over us. But once saved (meaning sealed or secured with the Holy Spirit -Ephesians 1:13), that cannot be. For our Governor becomes Christ, and He has dominion and rule over us. He holds occupancy. We are His possessions, bought with a price and set free from Satan, wherein we cannot be brought again into captivity.

1st Corinthians 6:19-20

• "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
• For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

We are the possession of the Holy Spirit of God, not the spirit of the antichrist, and we glorify God in our body, His Holy Temple. It cannot ever be again possessed by Satan.

NOW, what about demon possessions that some pastors, teachers, Hollywood authors, or your paranoid grandma talked about when she tied a red ribbon to the front door knob. If you are going to ask me if I believe that somewhere there is a person with a little demon in them which makes them hurl green vomit, and makes their head spin around wherein they need an exorcism, then NO!! Absolutely not! But if you mean do I believe the spirit of devils possesses people and thus they do terrible and wicked things, then YES. Absolutely!

See...we should be "careful" to understand that the miracles that Jesus did of casting out devils were for "signs" or "tokens" that He indeed was the prophesied Messiah/Christ that was to come and heal the broken hearted, and to free the captivity, and to loose the chains of darkness, to rebuke the unclean spirit, and reconcile us again to the Father. These very literal miracles were ONLY for "representations" of Spiritual truths! Not a teaching lesson on how to deal with people controlled by demon by throw their bodies around in the air.

Luke 9:42

• "And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father."

This was done to make manifest the Spiritual truths of the Salvation process. These types of supernatural "miracles" are not happening today no matter how some people may want you to believe in them. The signs and wonders were just that. And their purpose was to confirm (Hebrews 2:3-4) the prophesied coming of salvation for us, God bearing it witness that they represented the gifts of Salvation dispensed by the Holy Ghost, according to God's own will. i.e., indeed, illustrating that the kingdom of God had come.

Healing the blind (Matthew 12:22), for example, "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in our eyes being spiritually opened so that now we can see the Spiritual things of God. The healing of the deaf and speechless (Mark 7:32-37) "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in our ears being opened to truth and our tongue being loosed so that now we can speak in the tongue (language) of the messengers of God. Selah! In this kingdom we indeed have become messengers of God. Likewise, the healing of those possessed of Devils (Matthew 12:22-29) "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in the Devil (the unclean spirit), being cast out in our lives, and the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell where once Satan held us captive. It is a spiritual loosing from Satan. Hello?

Luke 13:15

• "The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
• And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"

Being bound by Satan illustrated she was possessed by him, where he held her in spiritual bondage to him, and he once was in control. And by the WORK of Christ, she enters into His Sabbath of rest.

Someone may argue that once we are born again with the Spirit of God, why are we still tempted by the things of Satan, if he is no longer "possessing" us?

The truth is we are tempted of the flesh, not the spirit. We have to understand that we still have a "body" of flesh that lusts after sin. That is why we sometimes lusts after woman with our eyes. Sometimes we were tempted to steal candy bar at the store. Sometimes, we were tempted to tell a white lie. We will NEVER totally conquer this body of sin until we leave the body of death to be present with the Lord. For example, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You need to remember that to be tempted by sin IS NOT demon possession, that's simply our life in having to live in this body of sin, the body of our flesh. As it is written, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Yet though we live in the flesh, we do not live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, we are just kidding (lying to) ourselves. But if we live through the Spirit, we will mortify the deeds of the body. This is a continuous battle against the flesh.

Galatians 5:16-18

• "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
• For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
• But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

In other words, the law no longer judges us. But the fact that we are not under the judgment of the law for our sins in the flesh, does not give us a license to sin, right. So our strength is our faith and hope in Christ.

Amen!

@rwb

 

[WPM]

Hello! Wow… looks like you’ve been binge-watching The Exorcist a little too much. Careful—you might start thinking every shadow in your house is a demon!



No, it is their own spirit of disobedience that has blinded them. They have been deceived by the lies they tell themselves, and their stubborn pride keeps them from seeing the truth.



Of course! That’s exactly why false prophets and false Christs appear among us—we must test their own spirit, which is called none other than Satan.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Contrary to what you teach, this is not Jesus encountering an abstract impersonal “collective manifestation of human depravity.” No! This is Jesus encounter our arch-enemy the devil – a real evil being. This is a being with volition, an agenda and feelings. Satan is “the prince of the devils.” He is the king of the kingdom of darkness. He speaks. He reasons. He has intellect. He deceives. He manipulates. He intimidates.

There is no mention of any ungodly human being in this story who is controlled by "their own spirit of disobedience that has blinded them." This is Satan himself, a fallen angel.

1st Temptation

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

This attempt was to try and get Jesus to think about his own welfare. After all, He was hungry. Food would have been extremely appealing to Him after forty days and forty nights without it.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (He quoted this from Deuteronomy 8:3).

Jesus doesn’t miss the mark. He puts the ball in the net every time. He reminded Satan that we are governed, satisfied and nourished by something more important than natural food, spiritual food – God’s truth.

Christ demolished this attack by resisting the devils attack, and by employing applicable Scripture to state the truth and expose his nonsense.

This is what you need to do with what he is hitting you.

2nd Temptation

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Having failed in his attempt to get Jesus to fulfill any selfish desires, Satan went to the other extreme and tempted Jesus to wantonly throw himself upon the Father’s protection. This was so sneaky. Simply, he was trying to tell Jesus what to do by manipulating the words of Scripture. He’s really good at that. Amen?

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (He quoted this from Deuteronomy 6:16).

This is such a bold but simple biblical dismissal of the evil one. We sometimes think that we need to get into a long elaborate prolong battle with the devil when that is not the case.

Christ again demolished this attack by resisting the devils attack, and by employing applicable Scripture to state the truth and expose his nonsense.

3rd Temptation

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

This temptation here involved an alternative path – a less painful path to win the nations. The only problem was, this was not what God planned.

This tells me: the devil will always offer you a Plan B that is easier and more palatable – don’t fall for it!

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (He quoted this from Deuteronomy 6:13).

Jesus reminded Satan of who is submitted to who!

Christ again demolished this attack by resisting the devils attack, and by employing applicable Scripture to state the truth and expose his nonsense.

Are there not lessons here for you and me?

Satan knows the power of the Word of God. In fact, he trembles at it. That is why the devil so desperately tries to keep you away from this Book brother/sister. He knows when you are in this Book, you are not ignorant. He knows when you’re employing this Book that he has nothing to counteract it.

 

[Muna]

You are way too wordy Tribs and you are bringing in Hollywood straw when we are not mentioning that. I do prefer the scriptures without the twisty stuff between it

Man's Psychology seems to be more in line with what you teach then what the scripture teaches

The psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession. This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.

 

[WPM]

Sure shows being possessed

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Question WMP, only because I don't know what angle he is coming from (and has me on ignore) but is it all the angels/spirits/devils (as mentioned in the scripture) considered to be the same earthly origin? Referring to either men or their own man spirits sort of thing?

I cant wrap my mind around this.

Can you explain your question more?

 

[Muna]

First, we need to clear the misconception about Christians be able to be "demon-possessed." No, a "true" Christian cannot be demon-possessed, because when someone becomes born again, or born from above, our body becomes a Holy Temple of God. And He, in the form of the Holy Spirit, comes to dwell there within us. And there can be no communion of the spirit of Satan and the Spirit of God in the same Temple.

2nd Corinthians 6:16

• "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The Holy Temple has no concord or agreement with Belial that they can dwell together. For God and Satan cannot co-exist together in this Holy Temple. They are adversaries, diverse spirits, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

When we become saved, the spirit of Satan is very literally Cast Out! Truly, this is what the miracles Christ did of casting out demons "signified." That we were loosed and made free from the bondage that Satan held over our bodies. And in the Spirit of Christ Satan can no longer rule within us. It is an Oxymoron to claim someone is a Christian, and also Satan possessed. For you cannot be Christ-possessed and Satan-possessed at the same time. You are either saved and free from bondage to Satan, or you are not.

Possession: 1300–50; ME < L possessiōn- (s. of possessiō).​

to have ownership; Have as property; have control over; having no willpower; being controlled by passion or supernatural forces; holding occupancy; having dominion; spiritual actuation; Having custody; The state of being under the dominion of evil spirits.​

None of these things could describe a Christian. A Christian is a slave of bondservant of God, never Satan or his minions. Demon possession means we "are a slave" of Satan, where he rules over us. He has dominion over us. But once saved (meaning sealed or secured with the Holy Spirit -Ephesians 1:13), that cannot be. For our Governor becomes Christ, and He has dominion and rule over us. He holds occupancy. We are His possessions, bought with a price and set free from Satan, wherein we cannot be brought again into captivity.

1st Corinthians 6:19-20

• "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
• For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

We are the possession of the Holy Spirit of God, not the spirit of the antichrist, and we glorify God in our body, His Holy Temple. It cannot ever be again possessed by Satan.

NOW, what about demon possessions that some pastors, teachers, Hollywood authors, or your paranoid grandma talked about when she tied a red ribbon to the front door knob. If you are going to ask me if I believe that somewhere there is a person with a little demon in them which makes them hurl green vomit, and makes their head spin around wherein they need an exorcism, then NO!! Absolutely not! But if you mean do I believe the spirit of devils possesses people and thus they do terrible and wicked things, then YES. Absolutely!

See...we should be "careful" to understand that the miracles that Jesus did of casting out devils were for "signs" or "tokens" that He indeed was the prophesied Messiah/Christ that was to come and heal the broken hearted, and to free the captivity, and to loose the chains of darkness, to rebuke the unclean spirit, and reconcile us again to the Father. These very literal miracles were ONLY for "representations" of Spiritual truths! Not a teaching lesson on how to deal with people controlled by demon by throw their bodies around in the air.

Luke 9:42

• "And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father."

This was done to make manifest the Spiritual truths of the Salvation process. These types of supernatural "miracles" are not happening today no matter how some people may want you to believe in them. The signs and wonders were just that. And their purpose was to confirm (Hebrews 2:3-4) the prophesied coming of salvation for us, God bearing it witness that they represented the gifts of Salvation dispensed by the Holy Ghost, according to God's own will. i.e., indeed, illustrating that the kingdom of God had come.

Healing the blind (Matthew 12:22), for example, "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in our eyes being spiritually opened so that now we can see the Spiritual things of God. The healing of the deaf and speechless (Mark 7:32-37) "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in our ears being opened to truth and our tongue being loosed so that now we can speak in the tongue (language) of the messengers of God. Selah! In this kingdom we indeed have become messengers of God. Likewise, the healing of those possessed of Devils (Matthew 12:22-29) "represented" the aspect of Salvation illustrated in the Devil (the unclean spirit), being cast out in our lives, and the Spirit of Christ coming to dwell where once Satan held us captive. It is a spiritual loosing from Satan. Hello?

Luke 13:15

• "The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
• And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"

Being bound by Satan illustrated she was possessed by him, where he held her in spiritual bondage to him, and he once was in control. And by the WORK of Christ, she enters into His Sabbath of rest.

Someone may argue that once we are born again with the Spirit of God, why are we still tempted by the things of Satan, if he is no longer "possessing" us?

The truth is we are tempted of the flesh, not the spirit. We have to understand that we still have a "body" of flesh that lusts after sin. That is why we sometimes lusts after woman with our eyes. Sometimes we were tempted to steal candy bar at the store. Sometimes, we were tempted to tell a white lie. We will NEVER totally conquer this body of sin until we leave the body of death to be present with the Lord. For example, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You need to remember that to be tempted by sin IS NOT demon possession, that's simply our life in having to live in this body of sin, the body of our flesh. As it is written, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Yet though we live in the flesh, we do not live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, we are just kidding (lying to) ourselves. But if we live through the Spirit, we will mortify the deeds of the body. This is a continuous battle against the flesh.

Galatians 5:16-18

• "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
• For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
• But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

In other words, the law no longer judges us. But the fact that we are not under the judgment of the law for our sins in the flesh, does not give us a license to sin, right. So our strength is our faith and hope in Christ.

Amen!

@rwb

I dont know how any of this applies to anything, sorry.

 

[WPM]

You are way too wordy Tribs and you are bringing in Hollywood straw when we are not mentioning that. I do prefer the scriptures without the twisty stuff between it

Man's Psychology seems to be more in line with what you teach then what the scripture teaches

The psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession. This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.

Or Christadelphianism. Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will.

 

[WPM]

I dont know how any of this applies to anything, sorry.

It doesn't. It is gibberish.

 

[Muna]

Can you explain your question more?

Sorry WPM, now that I am not on ignore with him anymore I could ask him that but I don't even care to because he just floods the reply box with droning on about nothing that even applies.

It is that he sees something like 7 sevens cast out of a woman as personalities in a person? And not devils, or spirits?

Does he regard all devils/spirits /angels as the same thing (always pertaining to man)? Is that any better?

I tried to discuss this before, if you caught the copy paste I posted (as I know you did) I was just as confused then.

Maybe I shouldnt care everyone has their own delusions to live with, thats what I am beginning to think.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are way too wordy Tribs and you are bringing in Hollywood straw when we are not mentioning that. I do prefer the scriptures without the twisty stuff between it

Wordy? LOL
I did provide the Scripture. Tons of it. Where are yours in rebuttal?

Man's Psychology seems to be more in line with what you teach then what the scripture teaches

The psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession. This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.

Psychologica model? LOL. I prefer God's Word over any psychologists, exorcists, or ghostbusters any day.

 

[WPM]

Sorry WPM, now that I am not on ignore with him anymore I could ask him that but I don't even care to because he just floods the reply box with droning on about nothing that even applies.

It is that he sees something like 7 sevens cast out of a woman as personalities in a person? And not devils, or spirits?

Does he regard all devils/spirits /angels as the same thing (always pertaining to man)? Is that any better?

I tried to discuss this before, if you caught the copy paste I posted (as I know you did) I was just as confused then.

Maybe I shouldnt care everyone has their own delusions to live with, thats what I am beginning to think.

He is more of a Christadelphian. He liked my definition of them. He seems to advocate that. Check it out. He will likely remove it as it exposes his agenda.

 

[WPM]

Wordy? LOL
I did provide the Scripture. Tons of it. Where are yours in rebuttal?



Psychologica model? LOL. I prefer God's Word over any psychologists, exorcists, or ghostbusters any day.

Christadelphians claim the same, but they butcher it.

 

[Muna]

Wordy? LOL
I did provide the Scripture. Tons of it. Where are yours in rebuttal?

Theres nothing there to quote to actually respond to in that entire thing. It appears to be written for someone else because you start off on Christian possession (??)

Psychologica model? LOL. I prefer God's Word over any psychologists, exorcists, or ghostbusters any day.

Your model is more theirs is why I did a search as to where your ideas originate from as opposed to the biblical model.

 

[WPM]

Theres nothing there to quote to actually respond to in that entire thing. It appears to be written for someone else because you start off on Christian possession (??)

Your model is more theirs is why I did a search as to where your ideas originate from as opposed to the biblical model.

I inserted your quote on the modern psychological model in the Op. Hope you are Ok with that?

 

[WPM]

Theres nothing there to quote to actually respond to in that entire thing. It appears to be written for someone else because you start off on Christian possession (??)

Your model is more theirs is why I did a search as to where your ideas originate from as opposed to the biblical model.

It is just a cut-and-paste.

 

[Muna]

He is more of a Christadelphian. He liked my definition of them. He seems to advocate that.

I thought so, thats why I was asking about that earlier. He and @Hiddenthings could make quite a pair.

No, I would say @Hiddenthings could debate it far better, he at least did not go off point and stuck with the scriptures better.

 

[Muna]

It is just a cut-and-paste.

You know him so well

 

[TribulationSigns]

I inserted your quote on the modern psychological model in the Op. Hope you are Ok with that?

Humm… it seems my testimony of Truth struck a nerve, so you felt the need to post my quote on the modern psychological model for their opinion based on their dealings with their patients with mental illnesses? LOL.

But tell me—are your ears truly open to God’s Word? Do you understand that Christ was lower than the messengers that he died for them, and that His miracles are not mere physical curiosities but examples of the work we are called to do in freeing those in spiritual bondage?

Why, then, do you turn to psychologists—probably ungodly men or secular organization with human opinions—to interpret what Scripture plainly reveals? That is foolishness. Scripture is not a laboratory for human theories; it is the living Word of God.

 

[Muna]

I think when we talked last time Tribs got hung up on the words angels (which could mean messenger or angel) which can equally show someone such as John the Baptist (a man) or the messenger/angel sent before the His face, or the messenger/angel of the covenant (the Word made flesh) being called the same thing. Both men there (in that office so to speak)

My question is that if such a messenger (or angel) are always of human origin, then why did the messenger/angel of the covenant (Jesus Christ) hold the office of one but was said to have to be made lower one (according to their nature) for the suffering of death?

Naturally men die, Jesus said angels do not die.

So how does that even work? Thats my first question.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Theres nothing there to quote to actually respond to in that entire thing. It appears to be written for someone else because you start off on Christian possession (??)

LOL! No, this was written for YOU—and for anyone else with ears to hear—so I covered all the bases:

First, can Christians be demon-possessed?
Second, what does “demon-possessed” really mean, and why do people believe such things today?

Read it carefully again—or are you just going to ignore it because you assumed it was meant for someone else? That is pure foolishness. Relying on human opinions instead of God’s Word shows a heart that refuses understanding.

Your model is more theirs is why I did a search as to where your ideas originate from as opposed to the biblical model.

Well, it is a biblical model—straight from God’s Word, which I quoted. I’ve never even heard of their so-called “modern psychological model,” so it’s obvious you’re grasping at straws to try to discredit my testimony. You can’t refute or resist what I post, so you look elsewhere. Sad.

I’m still waiting for you—and WPM—to offer a biblical rebuttal to my posts. But instead, you chase after something that has no foundation, hoping to distract from the truth. That is nothing more than a desperate attempt to avoid facing God’s Word.

 

[Muna]

My other question

Here we see John (who had the Holy Ghost) even as Jesus. The two mentioned here as far as their offices (referred to as messengers/angels). In Mal 3:1 Both as men are equally shown as these messengers (mal'aks /angels) (Jesus, the Word made flesh)

It reads,

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger (mal'ak /angel) , and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (mal'ak /angel) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Now in Hebrews we see Jesus (by nature) made lower than the angels here

Heb 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If by nature all angels/messengers are men (with the nature of man that can die) then why would Jesus (the messenger/angel of the covenant) need to be made lower than the angels (messengers) specifically for the very suffering death? Those who can die no more are equal to the angels, and our Lord had to die once being made lower than the angels Luke 20:36

There has to be an office (messenger/angel) and a nature of an another sort of angel (that is not speaking of human nature) was my point. Especially if Jesus was called a messenger/angel but had to be made lower than one in order to die..