Only Those Who Do the Will of God Will Enter the Kingdom

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps, Genesis 12:3 answers this question for all who claim to be a Saint of the one true God as to who will enter the Kingdom of God: -

Genesis 12:3: - ​

3 I will bless those who bless you,​

And I will curse him who curses you;​

And through you all the families inhabiting My fertile soil shall be blessed."​

 

[Deleted member 26788]

I agree
Jesus often spoke of His followers as sheep who belong to Him, who hear His voice and follow where He leads. He said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10:27–29). These words show a deep promise of safety and love, but also a clear condition: His sheep are those who listen to Him and follow His word. They are not just believers in name, but those who live by His teachings and trust in His care.

Jesus called Himself the good Shepherd who gives His life for the sheep (John 10:11). This means that He laid down His life to save those who belong to Him, to lead them from darkness into light. The Father and the Son are one in this work of saving and keeping the faithful, but the promise of being safe in His hand belongs only to those who stay within His fold. The sheep who wander away do so by their own choice, not because the Shepherd failed to protect them.

When Jesus spoke of “the elect,” He was talking about the same faithful ones—the true sheep who endure to the end. He said, “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matthew 24:31). These elect are those who hold fast to the truth, love God, and remain loyal through trials. Jesus also warned, “Because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:12–13). This shows that being among the elect is not about being chosen at random, but about choosing to stay faithful and obedient to the Shepherd who called us.

Before His death, Jesus prayed for His disciples, saying, “While I was with them, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition” (John 17:12). This means that Jesus guards all whom the Father gives Him, yet one was lost by turning away. Judas shows that being called does not remove free will; a person must remain in the truth to stay under the Shepherd’s care.

After Jesus ascended, His disciples taught the same message. Peter wrote, “You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9). God’s chosen ones are those who live in His light. Peter also said, “Be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10), showing that election is something confirmed by how we live and obey. John wrote, “He who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him” (1 John 3:24), linking obedience to remaining in Christ.

From all this we understand that the sheep Jesus spoke of are indeed the elect of God—the ones who hear His voice, follow Him, and remain in His love. They are safe in His hands, not because they are forced to be, but because they freely choose to stay near their Shepherd and trust in His word. Their safety is not in themselves but in His power and truth. As Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32).

We have to remain faithful to the end, Blessings Friend.

i wonder, do you realize when you speak of the elect you are referring to the 144000 ?

 

[LoveYeshua]

i wonder, do you realize when you speak of the elect you are referring to the 144000 ?

Jesus spoke about “the elect” as those chosen by God to be saved, the faithful who endure to the end and follow His teachings. He said that during the time of great trouble, God will shorten the days for the sake of His elect (Matthew 24:22), and that at His coming, He will send His angels with a loud trumpet sound to gather His elect from every part of the heavens (Matthew 24:31). From His own words, we see that the elect are not a small group or limited number of people, but all who truly belong to Him, those who have heard His voice and follow Him wherever He leads (John 10:27–28). Jesus also said that many will come from the east and the west and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 8:11), showing that His chosen ones come from all nations, not from one people alone.

The number 144,000 is found in the book of Revelation, where John the Apostle saw in a vision those sealed by God from the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe (Revelation 7:4). Later he saw them again, standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion, pure and faithful, described as the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:1–4). This group represents the completeness of God’s covenant people, shown by the symbolic number 12 times 12 times 1,000, meaning fullness and perfection. They stand as a sign that God has kept His promises to Israel, gathering a faithful remnant who have not turned away from Him even in times of trial. Right after the vision of the 144,000, John saw another sight—a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, all standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and praising God (Revelation 7:9). This shows clearly that the saved, the true elect, are not limited to 144,000, but include a countless number of faithful believers from every part of the earth.

The 144,000 represent the first group of faithful ones, while the great multitude shows the full gathering of all who belong to Christ.

In truth, the elect are all those who love and obey God, who believe in His Son and walk in His ways. The 144,000 are a symbolic sign within that greater body, showing God’s order and faithfulness to His promise. When Jesus returns, He will not only call a small number, but all His elect from every corner of the earth, those who kept their faith, endured in righteousness, and were sealed by His Spirit until the end.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

14 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

redeemed from the earth. meaning they were taken from the earth ??

then verse 6 '' Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
interesting, the 144000 are in heaven and yet there are a great number of people still living here on earth. to such a large number its very difficult to set a number to it .

how bout i just let you rethink who the 144000 are

 

[LoveYeshua]

14 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

redeemed from the earth. meaning they were taken from the earth ??

redeemed at what time?

then verse 6 '' Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
interesting, the 144000 are in heaven and yet there are a great number of people still living here on earth. to such a large number its very difficult to set a number to it .

how bout i just let you rethink who the 144000 are

We know who they are, 12000 from the 12 tribes, well in reality lets say GOD knows where they are. Most of the tribes are lost and were scattered, many Europeans, Canadians and Americans are from the lost tribes. No one knows exactly where they are today except GOD, the prophets of the O.T. describe a second exodus of the remnants of Israel to return to the Holy land at Christ's return or shortly thereafter.

I am not an expert on this and I could be wrong but this is what I know so far and from scripture, they are my sole source of information and The Holy Spirit guides me to the truth that is imparted to me but not all. In any case we shall know sooner than later end times are upon us, we are in the times of Jacob's troubles as described in Jeremiah, Of this I am 1000% certain.

Peace be with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
I had to go back a long ways to find the verses you are mentioning.

Hi Joe
Sorry for the delay.
You sure do write a lot and I wanted to take the time to go through your post.

Here they are:

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Faith is a gift from God that does not come naturally from within ourselves. Faith is given with the Early Rain and comes in "measure".

You add a lot to scripture Faith.
This is a big problem with these ideas, nowadays.

You said that faith is a gift from God that does not come naturally from within ourselves.

You use words that are not common to the Christian faith.
This is also problematic in a disucussion with you.
I've tried before.

The CONCEPT of early rain and late rain is not found in the bible.

IF you mean that a measure of faith is given to EVERYONE...
then I agree. God reveals Himself to everyone....
If you want to call it a measure of faith...it's not correct -
maybe you mean what some would call prevenient grace.

IF you mean prevenient grace,,,then this is a correct Christian CONCEPT.

Everyone has just enough grace in order to accept God, IF they want to.

Faith belongs to man.
The gospel is spoken....
it is accepted....
we now have faith
and we are now saved.

Grace and salvation are gifts from God.
Faith must come from us.

We are saved BY GRACE
THROUGH FAITH.

Through faith.

In the verse below, Paul is writing to babes who have been called to be saints and who have only been given the Early Rain.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man (babes) that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Re Romans 12:3 It does not mean what you think.
It means that God gives to every man the measure of faith necessary for that person to carry out what God would want that person to do for the Kingdom of God.

Please notice that all of chapter 12 is about service to God.
We require faith and the help of the Holy §Spirit to carry out God's wishes for us.
We are told to present our bodies a living sacrifice....verse 12:1
We are told not to be conformed to the world....verse 2
We do not all have the SAME FUNCTION....verse 4
We have gifts that differ.....verse 6

etc.

You should take the time to go through all of Romans 12 without any preconceived ideas.

A babe's faith will be increased beyond the measure that they received from the Early Rain when they receive the Latter Rain.

Where does the NT state the above?

Jesus said that all we need is the faith of a mustard seed.

What YOU are speaking of is the maturity of a Christian.
Some become mature Christians immediately,
and some take time.
Some can drink only milk, and some can eat the meat.

In the verse below, Paul is writing to babes who are "called to be saints". When Paul says to them "when your faith is increased", he is referring to when they will receive the Latter Rain. It will be at that time that they will actually be a saint.

2Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men’s labors, but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

2 Cor 10:15 is Paul teaching that our behavior will grow to be more in line with the desires of God.

Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

This occurs as a result of being converted into a child of God.

Babes who have the Early Rain cannot love God with all their heart, soul and mind because only a child of God can do this. Unconverted babes remain children of the Devil and can only see Christ carnally. Because of such, they will mistake Satan for Christ. Their love is misplaced.

Are you saying that an "early rainer" is not a child of God??


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[GodsGrace]

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Romans 8:9-10
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

This is true for converted believers who have both the Early and Latter Rains. It is also true for babes who have just the Early Rain AND who remain faithful.

At the time Paul wrote his letters, most of the babes were remaining faithful. So what Paul said in the verses above applied to them. But after Paul's death and the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ, those verses no longer apply to babes because all babes will fall away and become unfaithful.

Below is where Paul teaches about babes who fall away:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those (babes) who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (Early Rain), and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God (milk), and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Repentance from works and approaching Christ solely by faith is what keeps a babe under the grace of the New Covenant. When a babe mixes works with faith, they will fall from grace and will spiritually die.

Faith,,,ANY believer can fall away because the NT does not teach about the early rain and the later rain.


The discussion was originally about how we decide to become saved again.

Quite honestly,,,I've lost track of our conversation.

This is what is being referred to here:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Matthew chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway that all the Elect will travel to their salvation. Rev chapter 11 is another chapter that likewise teaches the pathway to salvation that all the Elect will travel. In both chapters, the Elect will be spiritually killed by the apostasy. Since the death of Paul, no babe has avoid being spiritually killed.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

After a person receives the Early Rain, they become the temple of God. But after the Abomination of Desolation occurs within God's temple (the babe), the believer will fall from grace and will spiritually die.

After Christ returns to a fallen away babe and pours out the Latter Rain, the babe's spiritual blindness will be healed and they will then be able to "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within them. Judgment will then follow to destroy the man of sin within them.

Mat 24:15 When (not if) ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall)

This is the same event as what this scripture below describes:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Faith comes by hearing and a person's ability to hear comes by the Word of God (who is Christ) within them. This happens when a person receives the Early and Latter Rains.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Faith in Christ is a gift that comes from having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If a person does not have the Spirit, they will not be able to hear and have faith.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:7
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing to the babes in Rome. They were called to be saints by the Early Rain. Since they had not received the Latter Rain and were not yet converted, they were not saints yet.

This is also true of Paul's letter to the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ out Lord, both theirs and ours:

Here is where Paul writes to both groups (converted believers & unconverted babes):

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (the converted) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (babes) in Christ Jesus:

And here:

Col 1:2 To the saints (converted) and faithful brethren (babes) in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think that is all of your verses.

Joe

Yes. Well, you DO wander off.

But you tried, so I responded.
However, I'm sorry to say that you WANDER too much and cannot keep to a specific conversation.

You originally had stated that one must be born again in order to be born again.
IOW, what you're basically saying is that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.
I was replying to THAT, and then you never addressed my posts.

So, I think this will be the end of the conversation for me.
UNLESS, you SPECIFICALLY respond and post scripture showing HOW a person is born again FIRST...
in order to become born again.

I will not be replying to anything else.
Sorry.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Faith,,,ANY believer can fall away because the NT does not teach about the early rain and the later rain.

Dear GodsGrace,
Converted believers cannot fall away because they have been "born again". After a person is born again, their salvation is secure. But for unconverted babes, they absolutely can fall away; and since the death of Paul, they all have.

You said:
UNLESS, you SPECIFICALLY respond and post scripture showing HOW a person is born again FIRST...
in order to become born again.

A person is not "born again" before they have faith. I have never made that statement.

Here is how Christ saves a person:

Christ will come to a unbeliever and give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. This small measure of the Spirit is called the Early Rain in the farming analogy. The farming analogy (along with many other analogies) teaches the pathway to salvation.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.

Christ gives the Early Rain to an unbeliever without their asking for it and without their permission. It is Christ's decision to give this gift to them and not the person's decision to ask for it or to receive it. They have no choice in the matter.

Paul was given the Early Rain as He traveled the Damascus Road. In fact, Paul hated Christ at that time and had no intention of becoming one of His followers. But all that "suddenly" changed for Paul after Christ gave Paul the Early Rain. As a result, Paul fell to the ground and called Jesus "Lord".

Paul's confession could not have been made without him already having the Spirit (Early Rain) within him:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After Paul accepted Christ, Paul became a "babe". Paul's blindness represented his spiritual blindness. Paul's being led by the hand also represented the truth that Paul had no ability to see Christ for himself at that time.

At this point, Paul was an unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded "babe". Paul was not "born again" because conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by judgment.

As long as a babe remains faithful though, they will remain "justified" and will no longer be condemned by the Law. This is the spiritual state of the OT faithful. They are justified by their faith which came from the Early Rain they were given. They will be made perfect (converted) upon their "better resurrection" from the grave. They will then be born again and will be found in the Lamb's book of Life.

In this age, however, no babe will remain faithful due to the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ at the end of the 1st century. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches accepted Satan's "another gospel" and became unfaithful. Nothing has changed for the babes since that time.

For an Elect babe, Christ will return to them before they die and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. It will restore the person's faith and it will give them their new birth as a child of God. This is the moment a person is "born again". Their faith came first (it was a gift), then came their new birth and conversion.

Paul received the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) after his time as an apostate babe was complete (typed by his three days in Damascus). After Paul's time of great tribulation was complete, Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. In response, Christ came a second time to Paul (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. Paul's blindness and his inability to eat or drink was healed at that time. This is when Paul was "born again".

Salvation is a gift from God. He gives it to whom He will. Mankind does not have a say in the matter. Christ is the one who does the work of saving a person. After He does His work, the person's heart, mind and character will be changed. So, in this sense, the work of Christ comes first and then comes salvation. Included in Christ's work is giving the person their faith. Faith comes first, then comes salvation.

Paul's conversion testimony is presented in Acts chapter 9. You should read it. There are many, many more teachings in scripture that teach the same pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion followed. However, they are taught in Christ's spiritual language and are taught "here a little and there a little". Christ teaches in this manner so that only those who have "eyes that can see" will be able to understand and receive it - and this understanding only comes to them after they are born again.

Christ is purposely concealing Himself from everyone in this world. Only those who are given both the Early and Latter Rains have the ability to "see" Christ. In this age, those persons are the Elect who were chosen for this blessing before the foundation of the world was laid.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children...

In your post, you stated that Christ has given all mankind a measure of faith. This is not true. If all mankind had a measure of faith, they will be following Christ and calling Him "Lord" - that is what it means to have faith.

Faith only develops within a person who has been given the Spirit - even just a small measure like the Early Rain. Without the Spirit, no one can call Jesus "Lord". The only thing they can do is to continue in their unbelief until they die. They are at the mercy of Christ to save them.

From your posts, I can tell that you have a very strong foundation of mixing works with faith. When you read scripture, you automatically add your belief in works to what the verse teaches. This is causing you a great deal of error in your understanding.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST....

 

[FaithWillDo]

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Faith,,,ANY believer can fall away because the NT does not teach about the early rain and the later rain.


The discussion was originally about how we decide to become saved again.

Quite honestly,,,I've lost track of our conversation.

Yes. Well, you DO wander off.

But you tried, so I responded.
However, I'm sorry to say that you WANDER too much and cannot keep to a specific conversation.

You originally had stated that one must be born again in order to be born again.
IOW, what you're basically saying is that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.
I was replying to THAT, and then you never addressed my posts.

So, I think this will be the end of the conversation for me.
UNLESS, you SPECIFICALLY respond and post scripture showing HOW a person is born again FIRST...
in order to become born again.

I will not be replying to anything else.
Sorry.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

Here is a very simple and clear statement by Paul that teaches how Christ saves a person:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The "faith" that a person has does not develop naturally within themselves if they do not have the Spirit. As Paul said, faith is "not of yourselves" - it is a gift from God that accompanies the Spirit.

It is a person's faith that they were given that makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to "appear" and convert them. The Early Rain gives a person a measure of faith but that faith is not founded upon truth because the person remains spiritually blind. This is why all babes will quickly fall away and become unfaithful. For those who are blessed, Christ will "come again" and give the person the Latter Rain, too. The Latter Rain will restore & increased their faith so that Christ will perform His work of conversion within them. After the person is converted, the truth will strengthen them.

These verses apply:

Isa 40:29 He gives power (Early Rain) to the weak (mankind), and to those who have no might He increases strength. 30 Even the youths (babes who have the Early Rain) shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall, 31 But those (the Elect) who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (by Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk (by faith) and not faint (spiritually die).

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (their Elect status), when it was weary (when it was weak and in an apostate condition).

Psa 104:27 These (the Elect) wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat (truth) in due season (the season of the Latter Rain).

Prov 16:15 In the light of the king's (Christ's) countenance is life (salvation); and his favour (blessing) is as a cloud of the Latter Rain.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

If you can't understand how Christ saves a person from the scriptures that I presented, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
Converted believers cannot fall away because they have been "born again". After a person is born again, their salvation is secure. But for unconverted babes, they absolutely can fall away; and since the death of Paul, they all have.

So you're saying that BABES IN CHRIST are NOT born again?

If someone is IN CHRIST,,,they are born again.

You said:
UNLESS, you SPECIFICALLY respond and post scripture showing HOW a person is born again FIRST...
in order to become born again.

A person is not "born again" before they have faith. I have never made that statement.

Yes Faith.
You HAVE said that God puts faith in us in order for us to be saved.

Listen to this:
If a person has FAITH....
they are ALREADY born again.

What YOU are espousing is that God has to put faith into a person FIRST...
AND THEN
that person becomes born again.

This is reformed/Calvinist theology which is not biblical.

Also, OSAS is not biblical.

If you wish to discuss either of those two subjects...
OK

If you just want to write books...
I'm not here to read.

Here is how Christ saves a person:

Christ will come to a unbeliever and give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. This small measure of the Spirit is called the Early Rain in the farming analogy. The farming analogy (along with many other analogies) teaches the pathway to salvation.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.

Christ gives the Early Rain to an unbeliever without their asking for it and without their permission. It is Christ's decision to give this gift to them and not the person's decision to ask for it or to receive it. They have no choice in the matter.

Paul was given the Early Rain as He traveled the Damascus Road. In fact, Paul hated Christ at that time and had no intention of becoming one of His followers. But all that "suddenly" changed for Paul after Christ gave Paul the Early Rain. As a result, Paul fell to the ground and called Jesus "Lord".

Paul's confession could not have been made without him already having the Spirit (Early Rain) within him:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After Paul accepted Christ, Paul became a "babe". Paul's blindness represented his spiritual blindness. Paul's being led by the hand also represented the truth that Paul had no ability to see Christ for himself at that time.

At this point, Paul was an unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded "babe". Paul was not "born again" because conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by judgment.

As long as a babe remains faithful though, they will remain "justified" and will no longer be condemned by the Law. This is the spiritual state of the OT faithful. They are justified by their faith which came from the Early Rain they were given. They will be made perfect (converted) upon their "better resurrection" from the grave. They will then be born again and will be found in the Lamb's book of Life.

In this age, however, no babe will remain faithful due to the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ at the end of the 1st century. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches accepted Satan's "another gospel" and became unfaithful. Nothing has changed for the babes since that time.

For an Elect babe, Christ will return to them before they die and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. It will restore the person's faith and it will give them their new birth as a child of God. This is the moment a person is "born again". Their faith came first (it was a gift), then came their new birth and conversion.

Paul received the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) after his time as an apostate babe was complete (typed by his three days in Damascus). After Paul's time of great tribulation was complete, Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. In response, Christ came a second time to Paul (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. Paul's blindness and his inability to eat or drink was healed at that time. This is when Paul was "born again".

Salvation is a gift from God. He gives it to whom He will. Mankind does not have a say in the matter. Christ is the one who does the work of saving a person. After He does His work, the person's heart, mind and character will be changed. So, in this sense, the work of Christ comes first and then comes salvation. Included in Christ's work is giving the person their faith. Faith comes first, then comes salvation.

Paul's conversion testimony is presented in Acts chapter 9. You should read it.

Yeah.
Maybe some day I'll read Acts chapter 9.

There are many, many more teachings in scripture that teach the same pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion followed. However, they are taught in Christ's spiritual language and are taught "here a little and there a little". Christ teaches in this manner so that only those who have "eyes that can see" will be able to understand and receive it - and this understanding only comes to them after they are born again.

Christ is purposely concealing Himself from everyone in this world.

Christ is concealing Himself from the world?
So He came here to play hide and go seek?
I guess Paul was wrong in Romans 1 when he states that God HAS ALWAYS revealed Himself to mankind.

And that makes
Titus 2:11-14 make no sense at all.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Only those who are given both the Early and Latter Rains have the ability to "see" Christ. In this age, those persons are the Elect who were chosen for this blessing before the foundation of the world was laid.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children...

In your post, you stated that Christ has given all mankind a measure of faith. This is not true. If all mankind had a measure of faith, they will be following Christ and calling Him "Lord" - that is what it means to have faith.

Faith only develops within a person who has been given the Spirit - even just a small measure like the Early Rain. Without the Spirit, no one can call Jesus "Lord". The only thing they can do is to continue in their unbelief until they die. They are at the mercy of Christ to save them.

From your posts, I can tell that you have a very strong foundation of mixing works with faith. When you read scripture, you automatically add your belief in works to what the verse teaches. This is causing you a great deal of error in your understanding.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST....

 

[GodsGrace]

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

Here is a very simple and clear statement by Paul that teaches how Christ saves a person:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The "faith" that a person has does not develop naturally within themselves if they do not have the Spirit. As Paul said, faith is "not of yourselves" - it is a gift from God that accompanies the Spirit.

It is a person's faith that they were given that makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to "appear" and convert them. The Early Rain gives a person a measure of faith but that faith is not founded upon truth because the person remains spiritually blind. This is why all babes will quickly fall away and become unfaithful. For those who are blessed, Christ will "come again" and give the person the Latter Rain, too. The Latter Rain will restore & increased their faith so that Christ will perform His work of conversion within them. After the person is converted, the truth will strengthen them.

These verses apply:

Isa 40:29 He gives power (Early Rain) to the weak (mankind), and to those who have no might He increases strength. 30 Even the youths (babes who have the Early Rain) shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall, 31 But those (the Elect) who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (by Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk (by faith) and not faint (spiritually die).

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (their Elect status), when it was weary (when it was weak and in an apostate condition).

Psa 104:27 These (the Elect) wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat (truth) in due season (the season of the Latter Rain).

Prov 16:15 In the light of the king's (Christ's) countenance is life (salvation); and his favour (blessing) is as a cloud of the Latter Rain.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

If you can't understand how Christ saves a person from the scriptures that I presented, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Joe

I appreciate that you're trying to help me Joe.
I pray God's blessings upon you.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I appreciate that you're trying to help me Joe.
I pray God's blessings upon you.

Dear GodsGrace,
I thought I would make one more post to you since I thought of another scripture to use.

Since you seem to like to use the term "born again" for salvation, I will present the verses where Christ mentions how a person is born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Early Rain) and of the Spirit (Latter Rain), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The verse below states when a person enters the Kingdom of Heaven:

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe), you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

For a person to be "born again", a person must have both the Early and Latter Rains - just as James says below.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Most people understand that being born of water occurs when a person is physically born into this world but that is not what Christ was saying to Nicodemus. Carefully read it again.

Christ says that a "man" (who is already physically born) must be born of water and the Spirit to be "born again". Being born again requires a person to be born by TWO things: water and Spirit.

So what does "water" and "Spirit" represent in the salvation process?

This concept applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural is the Early Rain and is represented by the spirit word "water".

The spiritual is the Latter Rain and is represented by the spirit word "Spirit".

Here is why:

The Early Rain comes first and leaves the person unconverted, carnally minded and spiritually blind. In this condition, they are still in the natural but are considered a child of God (a babe) as long as they remain faithful. However, in this condition, the person still has the spiritual makeup that has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful. They have not been converted so as to have the same spiritual makeup of Christ. The person is still in their natural spiritual state and that is why scripture teaches that babes still dwell upon the earth (the natural). In contrast to babes, converted believers are said to have been gathered to heaven (the spiritual) to dwell there. The "sea" is where unbelievers dwell.

Also, water baptism is to be performed after a person has received the Early Rain and has made a confession of faith. It is the natural form of baptism and not the spiritual form of baptism. In other words, physical water baptism foreshadows the spiritual baptism that comes later.

Can you now understand what Christ meant by being born of water and the Spirit?

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
I thought I would make one more post to you since I thought of another scripture to use.

Since you seem to like to use the term "born again" for salvation, I will present the verses where Christ mentions how a person is born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Early Rain) and of the Spirit (Latter Rain), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The verse below states when a person enters the Kingdom of Heaven:

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe), you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

For a person to be "born again", a person must have both the Early and Latter Rains - just as James says below.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Most people understand that being born of water occurs when a person is physically born into this world but that is not what Christ was saying to Nicodemus. Carefully read it again.

You're right about the water in John 3:5
Some understand it to mean physical birth,,,
some understand it to mean baptism...
and some understand it to mean the Word (the written word - God's teachings).

I'm trying to establish your EARLY RAIN to the above.
It cannot be done with physical and baptism.
Not sure it can even be done with the word...maybe.

As to James 5:7
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

James, and the others, were waiting for Jesus to return soon.
James was saying that we are to be patient just like a farmer that waits for his crops to grow....
it takes rain, both the rain at seedling time and the rain at mature plant time.
The farmer will not have a harvest until the right season.

I dislike using commentaries, but in this case it would be worthwhile:

The early and latter rain.—It is, perhaps, just as well to recollect there were only two seasons of rainfall in the Holy Land, and, if long delayed, famine was a certain result. With the change of the Israelites from pastoral life to agricultural, the malignity of these dearths was lessened; but they were and are still severe. The Bible mentions many such—e.g., in the days of Abraham (Genesis 12:10), Isaac (Genesis 26:1), Jacob (Genesis 42:2), Ruth (James 1:1), Samuel (2Samuel 21:1), Ahab (1Kings 18:2). The “early rain” fell during the autumn sowing—in October, November, and December; “the latter” in March and April. By many versions the word “rain” is omitted, but, of course, was always intended.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Behold the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit — Which will recompense his labour and patience; till he receive the early, or the former rain — Immediately after sowing; and the latter — Before harvest. In Judea the rains usually come in a regular manner; the early rain about the beginning of November, after the seed is sown, and the latter in the middle or toward the end of April, while the ears are filling. These rains were promised to the Israelites,


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth - The farmer waits patiently for the grain to grow. It requires time to mature the crop, and he does not become impatient. The idea seems to be, that we should wait for things to develop themselves in their proper season, and should not be impatient before that season arrives. In due time we may expect the harvest to be ripened. We cannot hasten it. We cannot control the rain, the sun, the season; and the farmer therefore patiently waits until in the regular course of events he has a harvest. So we cannot control and hasten the events which are in God's own keeping; and we should patiently wait for the developments of his will, and the arrangements of his providence, by which we may obtain what we desire.

And hath long patience for it - That is, his patience is not exhausted. It extends through the whole time in which, by the divine arrangements, he may expect a harvest.

Until he receive the early and latter rain - In the climate of Palestine there are two rainy seasons, on which the harvest essentially depends - the autumnal and the spring rains - called here and elsewhere in the Scriptures the early and the latter rains. See Deuteronomy 11:14; Job 29:23; Jeremiah 5:24. The autumnal or early rains of Scripture, usually commence in the latter half of October or the beginning of November; not suddenly, but by degrees, which gives opportunity for the husbandman to sow his fields of wheat and barley. The rains come mostly from the west or south-west, continuing for two or three days at a time, and falling especially during the nights. The wind then chops round to the north or east, and several days of fine weather succeed. During the months of November and December the rains continue to fail heavily; afterwards they return only at longer intervals, and are less heavy; but at no period during the winter do they entirely cease to occur.

source: James 5:7 Commentaries: Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.


As you can see, it speaks only of having patience to receive the harvest. As the parable of the tares and the wheat.

I think you've created an entire theology out of this verse.
I believe this to be incorrect.


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 2

Christ says that a "man" (who is already physically born) must be born of water and the Spirit to be "born again". Being born again requires a person to be born by TWO things: water and Spirit.

So what does "water" and "Spirit" represent in the salvation process?

This concept applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural is the Early Rain and is represented by the spirit word "water".

The spiritual is the Latter Rain and is represented by the spirit word "Spirit".

Here is why:

The Early Rain comes first and leaves the person unconverted, carnally minded and spiritually blind. In this condition, they are still in the natural but are considered a child of God (a babe) as long as they remain faithful.

The above, last paragraph, is so confusing I cannot even begin to deal with it.

If a person is a child of God...he is saved...born from above.
You even state that they must remain faithful.

ONLY those born from above are required to remain faithful.
The LOST are not required to remain faithful because they ARE NOT faithful because they are not saved.

However, in this condition, the person still has the spiritual makeup that has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful.

We DO NOT have ANY spiritual makeup to be carnally minded.
If we are carnally minded there is NO SPIRIT within us.

They have not been converted so as to have the same spiritual makeup of Christ. The person is still in their natural spiritual state and that is why scripture teaches that babes still dwell upon the earth (the natural). In contrast to babes, converted believers are said to have been gathered to heaven (the spiritual) to dwell there. The "sea" is where unbelievers dwell.

Also, water baptism is to be performed after a person has received the Early Rain and has made a confession of faith. It is the natural form of baptism and not the spiritual form of baptism. In other words, physical water baptism foreshadows the spiritual baptism that comes later.

I agree that a person should be baptized AFTER they have been born from above and become followers of Jesus.

Can you now understand what Christ meant by being born of water and the Spirit?

Joe

Actually Joe,,,I'm not sure what Jesus meant by the water in John 3:5 ( I had started a thread on this).
I'm leaning toward baptism....

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you sure you aren't named "FaithWillDooDoo? Cuz that's one big load you are dropping on us here...

Why is it one big load Shepherd?
Are you not familiar with reformed/calvinist theology?

They believe God predestinated EVERYTHING.....
including evil and sin.

Thus making God evil and a sinner.

Of course, some have smoothed this out a bit so as not to sound so damning toward God.
But the "high" Calvinists will proclaim this with no problem whatsoever.

They blaspheme God...
attributing to God the works of satan.

(love your emoji)

 

[FaithWillDo]

Actually Joe,,,I'm not sure what Jesus meant by the water in John 3:5 ( I had started a thread on this).
I'm leaning toward baptism....

Dear GodsGrace,
The commentaries on the Early and Latter Rain are incorrect.

Water is a spirit word that represents the Holy Spirit. When it falls like Rain, it indwells the person it falls on. It can be either the Early Rain or the Latter Rain.

Associated with the Early and Latter Rains is the person's understanding.

When a person receives the Early Rain, they receive a measure of faith but can understand very little beyond "Christ and Him crucified". Since a babe's understanding of Christ remains carnal, they can see the physical work of Christ that He did under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was given to carnal mankind. They have no trouble understanding it. The Old Covenant is the "natural" and is written on tablets of stone.

But the New Covenant is different. It is a spiritual covenant. To understand the New Covenant, it requires a person's spiritual blindness to be healed. This requires the Latter Rain. It is at that time that a babe becomes a little child who no longer needs to draw milk. They are now ready to eat meat so they can grow to full maturity (a man of full age). The person no longer needs a teacher/mother and no longer needs to be led by the hand. They can now understand the New Covenant teachings because they have the mind of Christ and the guidance of the Spirit of Truth. The Law is now written in their hearts (the spiritual).

Joe

I will follow this up with a second post.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Actually Joe,,,I'm not sure what Jesus meant by the water in John 3:5 ( I had started a thread on this).
I'm leaning toward baptism....

Dear GodsGrace,
I was thinking about something else that I believe is an issue for you. This has to do with the spirit word "babe".

The spirit word "babe" is used by Christ in TWO different analogies, both of which teach the pathway to salvation. If a person tries to combine the two analogies, it will create error. A person must "rightly divide the Word" by the two analogies.

The two analogies that use the word "babe" are:

1). The birthing analogy.

In this analogy, the Early Rain produces a child of God in the womb of the person who receives it. When the person receives the Latter Rain, the child in the womb is born. The term "born again" applies to this analogy.

Here is a verse that uses it:

1Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This verse is teaching on the Latter Rain and the judgment that follows. Paul uses the phrase "as travail upon a woman with child" to show us that he is teaching on the moment that a person is "born again".

2). The maturing analogy.

In this analogy, the Early Rain is what produces the babe in Christ. While a babe, the infant can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified). When the babe receives the Latter Rain, the babe grows into a "little child" who has entered the Kingdom of Heaven. At this point, the child can "eat meat" (bread and New Wine).

This scripture applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For concept must be upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) concept upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Below is a teaching from the Old Testament that combines the Early and Latter Rain concept with the birthing analogy:

Ecc 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to SEVEN, and also to EIGHT; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

In verses 1 & 2 above, two portions of bread are shown to be cast upon the waters. Water is representative of the Holy Spirit. Bread is Truth (Christ).

The first portion of bread goes to SEVEN which is a reference to mankind in their marred & carnal spiritual state. Casting the first portion of bread to SEVEN represents the time when a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. At this time, the new believer (babe) will be able to understand & receive the physical teachings of Christ of the Old Covenant but little else.

Paul refers to this first portion of bread in the verse below in his first letter to the babes in the Corinthian church:

1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Next, a second portion of bread goes to EIGHT because “thou knowest not (deception) what evil shall be upon the earth”. The spiritual term EIGHT is a reference to the worsened spiritual state that occurs to all babes shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. This spiritual change is hidden from the immature believer’s knowledge because they remain spiritually blind. At this time, Satan will make their last state of carnality “worse than the first” (Mat 12:43-45).

If the apostate believer is one of the Elect, Christ will give them a second portion of bread while they are in this worsened carnal state (EIGHT). The second portion of bread is given to them at the time of the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the baptism of the Spirit/Spirit of Truth which will heal the person’s spiritual blindness so that they will be able to understand & receive the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant.

In verse 3, the scripture continues talking about “EIGHT” and mentions the clouds being full of rain. This is a reference to the drought that occurs during the time a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains. It is symbolized by Elijah’s 3 ½ years of drought which is also referred to as a time, times and half a time, 1260 days and 42 months. When the clouds “empty themselves upon the earth”, it is a direct reference to the Latter Rain event that ends the time of drought for a chosen believer.

Verse 3 continues by mentioning a tree which falls either to the North or to the South. A tree is representative of a believer (a babe) who has only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. When the tree falls, that event represents the time when a babe falls away and becomes spiritually worse than the first (apostate). It is the time of Daniel’s Abomination of Desolation when a believer is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ and loses their salvation. If the tree falls to the south, it represents the believers who have been chosen to receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. If the tree falls to the north, it represents believers who have not been chosen to receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The decision of who is chosen and who is not chosen was made from the foundation of the world and cannot be changed (where the tree falls, there it shall be).

Verse 4 continues talking about the chosen believers vs. the non-chosen believers.

The believers who “observeth the wind shall not sow” is a reference to the chosen believers who, after receiving the Latter Rain, are “born of the Spirit” (wind, John 3:8 & Acts 2:2). They will no longer sow because they have stopped approaching Christ by their own works. They have entered into the rest of Christ.

The believers who “regardeth the clouds shall not reap” is a reference to the non-chosen believers who remain spiritually blind. The clouds represent their spiritual blindness which keeps Christ hidden from their understanding. Because they remain blind, they will not reap and produce the spiritual fruit that is required of a child of God. They will remain in this lost spiritual state until they die.

Verse 5 speaks to the concealed nature of the Pathway to Salvation which was presented in verses 1-4. The first part of verse 5 tells us that we do not know “the way of the Spirit” or how the “bones” (a person’s spirit) grow in the womb. Mankind, in their carnally minded spiritual state, cannot understand the ways of God – their carnality blinds them from knowing the truth of God.

Paul said that Christ and His church are a Great Mystery (Eph 5:32). This truth is the most hidden teaching in scripture. At its core is the teaching of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

Verse 5 continues by mentioning the birthing analogy of the woman who is with child. In this analogy, the woman represents the “freewoman” (Gal 4:22-31) and the child in the womb is the child of God waiting to be born. This truth is likewise hidden from mankind.

Verse 5 finishes with another statement that says again that the “works of God who maketh all” is a mystery to mankind.

GodsGrace, try separating the two analogies that use the spirit word "babe" and see if that helps clear up some of the confusion you are having with my posts.

Joe

 

[Bladerunner]

yet Jesus said ''
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.''
ok sure we know God rules in heaven ,yet Jesus was pointing out that one day God would also rule the earth

That is exactly what He is saying and it will be for 1,000 years. better get ready

 

[Bladerunner]

The Kingdom of God is on earth,,,right now.
The two terms can be used interchangeably...
Kingdom of God
Kingdom of Heaven (usually Kingdom of Heaven refers to heaven)

then Why did He change not to say it again in Matthew. Because the Jews rejected it because they believed He was not the Meschiek Nagid

Matthew 4:17
"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
Do you believe that nothing like heaven existed until Jesus said this?
Where did the dead believers go? Could it have been heaven or something similar (Paradise, Hades).

The true believers body's went to the grave and their souls when to Paradise, Jesus in heaven.

Matthew 5:13-16, 27-48 speaks of the Kingdom of God and those that are participating in it.
Matthew chapters 6-7 go on to describe the Kingdom of God....
Matthew chapter 13:44-51 speaks to the Kingdom of God.

Sure He did, But it is the Kingdom of Heaven for as the Jews rejected the first 69 weeks of Daniels prophecy.

Matthew 6:33
“But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”
Does this sound like Jesus telling us to do something right now, right here?
How do we seek the Kingdom of God if He means the heaven realm?
Won't we already be in the heaven realm?

No He was telling the Jewish People, not the Gentiles...In fact the grafting of the Gentiles did not happen until Jesus had already ascended to Heaven

Mark 1:15
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
If Jesus was teaching about the heavenly realm...WHY do we need to repent and believe?
Didn't we already repent and believe?

Sounds like Matthew, early times and always to the Jews/

Luke 4:43
“But He said to them, ‘I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent.'”
Jesus mission was twofold:
1. Atone for the sins of mankind.
2. Establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
Luke 4:43 clearly states that Jesus Himself stated that His mission/purpose was to preach the Kingdom of God to all cities.

There's a lot more, but I'll end here.

The Kingdom of God would be the Heaven the Rapture will take them to.......that is if one is watching for it to happen, (I.e. The story of the 10 Virgins.

This is accepted Christian theology.
If you don't accept it....your choice.

Some reading along might be interested to know that Jesus spoke about being born from above one time....
He spoke about the Kingdom many many times...

Yes, in the last days of His ministry.

 

[ProDeo]

Dear GodsGrace,
Converted believers cannot fall away because they have been "born again". After a person is born again, their salvation is secure. But for unconverted babes, they absolutely can fall away; and since the death of Paul, they all have.

You said:
UNLESS, you SPECIFICALLY respond and post scripture showing HOW a person is born again FIRST...
in order to become born again.

A person is not "born again" before they have faith. I have never made that statement.

Here is how Christ saves a person:

Christ will come to a unbeliever and give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. This small measure of the Spirit is called the Early Rain in the farming analogy. The farming analogy (along with many other analogies) teaches the pathway to salvation.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.

Christ gives the Early Rain to an unbeliever without their asking for it and without their permission. It is Christ's decision to give this gift to them and not the person's decision to ask for it or to receive it. They have no choice in the matter.

Paul was given the Early Rain as He traveled the Damascus Road. In fact, Paul hated Christ at that time and had no intention of becoming one of His followers. But all that "suddenly" changed for Paul after Christ gave Paul the Early Rain. As a result, Paul fell to the ground and called Jesus "Lord".

Paul's confession could not have been made without him already having the Spirit (Early Rain) within him:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After Paul accepted Christ, Paul became a "babe". Paul's blindness represented his spiritual blindness. Paul's being led by the hand also represented the truth that Paul had no ability to see Christ for himself at that time.

At this point, Paul was an unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded "babe". Paul was not "born again" because conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by judgment.

As long as a babe remains faithful though, they will remain "justified" and will no longer be condemned by the Law. This is the spiritual state of the OT faithful. They are justified by their faith which came from the Early Rain they were given. They will be made perfect (converted) upon their "better resurrection" from the grave. They will then be born again and will be found in the Lamb's book of Life.

In this age, however, no babe will remain faithful due to the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ at the end of the 1st century. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches accepted Satan's "another gospel" and became unfaithful. Nothing has changed for the babes since that time.

For an Elect babe, Christ will return to them before they die and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. It will restore the person's faith and it will give them their new birth as a child of God. This is the moment a person is "born again". Their faith came first (it was a gift), then came their new birth and conversion.

Paul received the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) after his time as an apostate babe was complete (typed by his three days in Damascus). After Paul's time of great tribulation was complete, Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. In response, Christ came a second time to Paul (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. Paul's blindness and his inability to eat or drink was healed at that time. This is when Paul was "born again".

Salvation is a gift from God. He gives it to whom He will. Mankind does not have a say in the matter. Christ is the one who does the work of saving a person. After He does His work, the person's heart, mind and character will be changed. So, in this sense, the work of Christ comes first and then comes salvation. Included in Christ's work is giving the person their faith. Faith comes first, then comes salvation.

Paul's conversion testimony is presented in Acts chapter 9. You should read it. There are many, many more teachings in scripture that teach the same pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion followed. However, they are taught in Christ's spiritual language and are taught "here a little and there a little". Christ teaches in this manner so that only those who have "eyes that can see" will be able to understand and receive it - and this understanding only comes to them after they are born again.

Christ is purposely concealing Himself from everyone in this world. Only those who are given both the Early and Latter Rains have the ability to "see" Christ. In this age, those persons are the Elect who were chosen for this blessing before the foundation of the world was laid.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children...

In your post, you stated that Christ has given all mankind a measure of faith. This is not true. If all mankind had a measure of faith, they will be following Christ and calling Him "Lord" - that is what it means to have faith.

Faith only develops within a person who has been given the Spirit - even just a small measure like the Early Rain. Without the Spirit, no one can call Jesus "Lord". The only thing they can do is to continue in their unbelief until they die. They are at the mercy of Christ to save them.

From your posts, I can tell that you have a very strong foundation of mixing works with faith. When you read scripture, you automatically add your belief in works to what the verse teaches. This is causing you a great deal of error in your understanding.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST....

This "babe" teaching of yours, are you writing from experience ?