THE LORD'S PRAYER: JESUS DIDN'T PRAY IT, SHOULD WE?

[LoveYeshua]

Reread the above post, highlighted it for you

what you posted is incomplete you cut off some parts of my post. To prove what I wrote wrong?

Here it is again;

Do not forget Paul a new convert did not preach immediately in acts 9 but rather started to peach to the gentiles in Acts 13 if I remember correctly.

I knew you would see it and not like it it is why I added this last phrase.

 

[Muna]

what you posted is incomplete you cut off some parts of my post. To prove what I wrote wrong?

It was irrelevant, because I had already acknowledged that Peter was an apostle BEFORE Paul

You wrote this n your first paragraph

Before Paul even came into the story, Jesus had already chosen Peter and the other apostles to go to all nations. After His resurrection, Jesus said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19–20). Then later, Jesus spoke directly to Peter in a very personal way, saying three times, “Feed My lambs… Tend My sheep… Feed My sheep” (John 21:15–17). That was Jesus’ way of restoring Peter after his denial, but it was also a command that reached beyond Israel. Jesus had already spoken of this earlier when He said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16). Those “other sheep” were the Gentiles, and this meant Peter’s task to tend and feed Christ’s sheep included them too.

Again, I had acknowledged Peter was an apostle before Paul, so you missed my point

Peter was not going in unto the Gentiles until that vision came to him (In Chapter 10) and Paul would never have believed upon the the Lord Jesus Christ until that vision came to him and His being a chosen vessel unto him to the Gentiles (in Chapter 9).

Regardless of what Jesus said to Peter, he was not understanding it

As Peter said to Cornelius in Chater 10

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.( This was shown to Peter earlier in Acts Chapter 10 and Peter mentions this very incident in Acts 11:9)

This thing was not at all computing with Peter until God showed him, and it was no small thing with these either when they heard of it

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Acts 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Acts 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

And then Peter begins at his vision that he had in Chapter 10 recalling that here in Acts 11

Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet,
let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me, (Acts 10:11) This had to happen three times.

Which had to do with the Gentiles, and which was said to him in both places

Acts 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. (Acts 10:28)

Jesus said salvation was of the Jews (John 4:22)

We all know Peter was a Jew who walked with Jesus first even as Paul a Jew not among the original apostles

Paul quoting Isaiah 49:6 here saying the same were set to be a light to the Gentiles

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles,
that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Here it is again;

Do not forget Paul a new convert did not preach immediately in acts 9 but rather started to peach to the gentiles in Acts 13 if I remember correctly.

I knew you would see it and not like it it is why I added this last phrase.

Its not a competition, we are just shown Paul was called a chosen vessel unto the Gentiles (in Acts chapter 9) which was before Peter even understood thats what he would have to do. So whether walked with Christ or not, Peter wasnt going in that direction without some additional guidance.

So when you wrote your next two paragraphs (I will copy paste these here

We see this become real in Acts chapter 10, when Peter received a vision from God. He saw a great sheet lowered from heaven filled with all kinds of animals, clean and unclean, and heard a voice say, “What God has cleansed you must not call common” (Acts 10:15). This vision confused him at first, but it was preparing him to meet Cornelius, a Gentile man who also had received a vision. An angel told Cornelius, “Now send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter. He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do” (Acts 10:5–6). Peter obeyed God’s direction, went to Cornelius’ house, and began to speak the gospel. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon everyone there, showing that God had accepted the Gentiles as well. Seeing this, Peter said, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:34–35). That was the first clears moment when the gospel reached the Gentiles, and it came through Peter’s preaching, not Paul’s.

Paul’s calling came afterwards in Acts chapter 9. When the Lord spoke to Ananias about Saul, He said, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). So yes, Paul was chosen to go to the Gentiles too, but that hapened after Peter had already been sent and had already preached to them. Paul later became the main apostle traveling among Gentile nations, but the door had been opened first through Peter’s obedience.

I was trying to point out you had the two backwards, Pauls calling did not come AFTER Peters in Chapter 10, Pauls calling was before Peters in Chapter 9 (as far as the Gentiles go). I would say both were on equal footing there not knowing they would be going to the Gentiles even when Jesus would tell them things it sometimes did not compute, and obviously that was the case with Peter.

 

[Muna]

what you posted is incomplete you cut off some parts of my post. To prove what I wrote wrong?

Here it is again;

Do not forget Paul a new convert did not preach immediately in acts 9 but rather started to peach to the gentiles in Acts 13 if I remember correctly.

I knew you would see it and not like it it is why I added this last phrase.

I see your subtle jabs at Paul, they dont go unnoticed

 

[Muna]

And @Truly for information.

Peter’s involment with the ministry to the Gentiles and his relationship with Paul is a little more complicated than what you present.

Its a small reply box

To start with Peter was a Jewish-Christian and they were taking the word to the Gentiles ….but….they had conditions for the Gentiles to adhere to in order for them to be Christians….like the requirement to be circumcised and follow at least some of the Mosaic Laws….But the Jewish-Christians considered Gentile-Christians to be sort of a “honorary membership” The Gentile-Christians were not allowed in the Temple and were still considered Gentiles. So they could not sacrifice animals like the Jewish-Christians were doing.

At times Peter and Paul had disagreements and Paul had to set him straight….But as time went on Peter’s beliefs became more in line with Paul’s. And Peter joined Paul's ministry to the Gentiles and Peter joined Paul at the meeting in Jerusalem in Acts 15 to settle the differences and animosities between the Jewish-Christians and Gentle-Christians which ended with James issuing this letter.

The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell. Acts 15:24-29

Besides resolving….attempting to resolve their differences it points out some of the differences between the Jewish-Christians and Gentile Christians.

The same is mentioned in this context as well, up further where it goes into Paul teaching the Jews against circumcision and they again quote what they did earlier as you quoted

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Right
Jesus didnt say pray this prayer word for word, just a pattern

I don't read verse 9 as saying that.

Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

 

[Marvelloustime]

again , according to whom doug . You and your dispensationslist men .
AS FOR ME , ITS LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar . YOU all are twistng scrips and doing so
unto your own destruction .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

due to easy access to world wide communications it has been a growing problem
AND NOW due to AI it will finish them all off . That image is not just a nebuchadezzer image set up
that cannot speak . THIS ONE CAN . and it will RUN the DIGITAL system
wherein if one no comply they NO BUY .
Would you like to hear what a lady said about such a system .
THOUGH this lady is an unbeliver SO she can only see the trees BUT NOT THE FOREST .
She said , I dont like this digital system they have coming in
IF we dont comply they can boot us out of such and we wont have access to our money and etc .
SOUND familiar . And the image that speaks WILL RUN IT .
That lady needs to get her rear TO FAITH IN CHRIST and in that bible and read
what was left for us to read and is now almost two thousand years old . People moc k the bible
AD YET LOOK at it .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

paul often used the law as a means of correction .
What does this doug think my friend .
He who is a fornicator , A LIAR , A THIEF , MURDERER , UNCLEAN etc shall not INHERIT the KINGDOM .
NOW DIDNT even the law say T HOU SHALL NOT LIE , STEAL , MURDER .
This generation acts like JESUS came to allow trangression . But what i say to one i say to all
THOUGH we are not under the law
And though we do NOT justify ourselves by the law
IF ANY man , woman or child WHO BELIEVED ON JESUS and WOULD HAVE HAD the SPIRIT upon them .
WOULD NOW LOVE the TRUTH , not hate and twist and omit it . IT WOULD BE UPON our hearts .
But many use grace as a license to sin . BIG MISTAKE TOO , T OTAL PROOF they follow the WRONG jesus friend

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[amigo de christo]

Its a small reply box


The same is mentioned in this context as well, up further where it goes into Paul teaching the Jews against circumcision and they again quote what they did earlier as you quoted

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[Davy]

[Matthew 6:9 KJV] 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

We say this is the Lord's prayer, but Jesus didn't pray this prayer. Jesus instructed his disciples to pray in this manner.

[Matthew 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Believing Israel and the disciples are instructed to pray for the Davidic kingdom to come down from heaven. In the kingdom on earth Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years............[Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We aren't looking for this kingdom for our inheritance, ours is in the heavenly places...........[1Corinthians 15:49 KJV] 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[2Timothy 4:18 KJV] 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Matthew 6:11 KJV] 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

The disciples and believing Israel are to rely on God to provide food in the coming tribulation. In the tribulation the saints who will not receive the mark will be unable to buy or sell for food. God provided manna for food and in this prayer believing Israel will recognize there dependence on God for their sustenance........[Numbers 11:9 KJV] 9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

[Matthew 6:12 KJV] 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Here is an instruction for prayer that highlights my assertion that this prayer was for Israel and not us. Israel was under covenant, under this covenant to be forgiven Israel had to forgive. We need to look no further to find what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of forgiveness for Israel. Right after this prayer Jesus gives instruction in regard to forgiveness............[Matthew 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses........... Mark says the same about forgiveness..........[Mark 11:25 KJV] 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In this dispensation, how are we to forgive?........[Ephesians 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you...........We forgive others because we have been forgiven, not because it is conditional under covenant.............We have been forgiven all trespasses and don't have to ask for forgiveness.......... [Colossians 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Most importantly, the Lord Jesus never prayed this prayer, in spite of the fact that it is called the Lord's prayer. If Jesus did pray this he would be a sinner who had to ask for forgiveness.

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

WHAT A BUNCH OF BALDERDASH THE ABOVE IS!

Jesus gave the prayer of Luke 11 to ALL... His disciples, and that means ALL of His Church!

I really get tired of these types who come here to smear The New Testament Scriptures revealing most likely they are not really members of Christ's Church.

Christ's early disciples MADE UP PART OF THE FOUNDATION OF CHRIST'S CHURCH, and that was declared by Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2! A TRUE Christian would have read and understood this...

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


Anyone denying they belong to that foundation Paul declared above (in red), cannot be a member of Christ's Church. It's as simple as that.

 

[amigo de christo]

Be relieved my friend and fear not!

The fear is for this generation my friend .
Many have been decieved by so called religious experts within the church and those who also behave as though
they are humble . for more info i will send this next .

 

[amigo de christo]

Be relieved my friend and fear not!

 

[LoveYeshua]

The fear is for this generation my friend .
Many have been decieved by so called religious experts within the church and those who also behave as though
they are humble . for more info i will send this next .

Yes true, people have to use discernment and search for the truth themselves. Jesus said so clearly that he was the only way to eternal life, so many have forgotten this and follow someone else.

 

[Doug]

what do you mean as if coming from christ himself.

Our gospel our doctrine and instructions and commandments are from Christ revealed to Paul

 

[Doug]

paul often used the law as a means of correction .
What does this doug think my friend . who is a fornicator , A LIAR , A THIEF , MURDERER , UNCLEAN etc shall not INHERIT the KINGDOM .
NOW DIDNT even the law say T HOU SHALL NOT LIE , STEAL , MURDER .

[1Co 6:9-11 KJV] 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul was admonishing the Corinthian church because they werent repenting of their fornication. He was reinforcing that those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom. He wasnt condemning to hell if they sinned. Look at verse 11 they were justified.

In light of who they are in Christ they should repent of their fornication..................[1Co 6:18 KJV] 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Our gospel our doctrine and instructions and commandments are from Christ revealed to Paul

Doctrines and instructions and commandments for everything we need are given directly by our Lord, who is one with God, and are recorded in the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why then do you turn to the writings of the Apostle Paul when the very words of eternal life are found in the Gospels spoken by Jesus Himself?

Many have become lost in the writings of Paul, and some teachers have twisted their meaning. I urge you to return to the true source of eternal life, Jesus Christ, whom you should follow with all your heart. I fear that your church and teachers may have led you astray, for much of what you write does not reflect the words of God, but the teachings of men. I am not the only one who see this, many have told you also.

John 14:6
-"“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 6:63
-"The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”

John 10:9
“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”

John 11:25–26
-“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 6:47–48
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life.”

John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 12:50
“And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

John 15:5–6
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered.”

please read the following from John chapter 5 (KJV);

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.41 I receive not honour from men.42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Doug]

@Doug's main issue is to think all that was said and done prior Paul ( Including Christ teachings) was only for Israel, I have proven to him quoting numerous verses that the message of the bible is for all who believe and follow God/Christ from the O.T. to the N.T. I hope he will come around as I start to see a change and I offered my help with the synoptic gospels.

Jesus came to save Israel and offer them the Davidic kingdom on earth. Jesus taught the children of Israel and the disciples Our inheritance in the church the body of Christ is in heaven not the kingdom. Gentiles could always become proselytes and as seen in Acts 10 could believe Peter's preaching and enter the kingdom on earth

 

[LoveYeshua]

I see your subtle jabs at Paul, they dont go unnoticed

You reply with an accusation. And the truth is what you and many still deny that Peter was appointed by GOD to preach to the gentiles the Moment Jesus asked them to proclaim Jesus words and all he did throughout the world. That was before ACTS and is factual.

 

[Doug]

How are you defining Gentiles now?

There arent different Gentiles just different dispensations. Israel was being offered the Davidic kingdom on earth and Peter and the eleven preached it. In Acts 10 the Gentiles believed Peter's preaching and became members in the church headed by Peter. These Gentiles were the ones grafted in and would enter the kingdom on earth.