Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[rwb]

So there you have it. My case against Satan being a fallen angel. I could say much more, but I’ll leave it there.

Perhaps the real question is why people hold onto this false doctrine. Partly because we were taught it and we didn’t do our own research. And because we need some mechanism to explain evil. We have to have some reason to articulate why it exists. If we can find a way that God had something to do with it, we accept it, even if it doesn’t make sense. That’s exactly what the devil wants us to believe, that God created evil.

How could God make something the opposite of Himself? How could He create evil or the possibility of evil if there is no evil in Him? He would be a house divided against itself, which Jesus tells us cannot stand.

But that’s exactly what many people believe.

I simply ask you to re-examine your beliefs about the devil. Read the chapters from Isaiah and Ezekiel mentioned above. Do some more research. If you only read things you already agree with, you won’t get any fresh perspectives.

Don’t agree or disagree with me just because of what I have written here. Please, please do your own searching of the Scriptures. And don’t take things out of context.

As always, I welcome your thoughts and perspectives. I am always open to honest conversation on these kinds of topics. If there is something you feel I have overlooked on this subject, please let me know.

In closing, I repeat Jesus’ definition of Satan. “He was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar and the father of lies.” The only power Satan has is if you believe his lies.

Gratefully, Jesus gave us the remedy for all time from Satan’s lies: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32

 

[rwb]

https://reformedreflections.org/series/angels5.pdf

Angels in Reformed Spirituality by Johan D. Tangelder Since the Reformation, Protestant theology has shown a reluctance to discuss angels, contrasting sharply with the wealth of medieval speculation. The Reformers accepted the existence of angels on Scriptural authority, putting the proper emphasis on the centrality of God in Christ. Martin Luther often spoken about angels and demons. It was Luther's experience that "as soon as the Word is preached and as soon as there are people that accept and confess it, the devil quickly appears with all his angels and arouses the world with all its might against this Word to stifle it and completely destroy those that have and confess it." In his battles with the forces of evil, Luther was encouraged and strengthened by the protecting nearness of good angels.

In his Institutes of the Christian Religion John Calvin offers a thorough treatment of the Reformed doctrine of angels. He also referred to them in his sermons and commentaries. Although Calvin was quite clear that God acts through angels, he repeatedly emphasized that angels are merely God's helpers: "The whole praise of salvation rests with God alone; for the angels do not bring help to whomever they wish to help, nor are they moved by their own will; they only obey the rule of God." Calvin's reserved attitude toward angels became the norm for Reformed and evangelical theology. Most Reformed dogmatics offer nothing more than modest summaries of Biblical data on angels.

For example, in his Systematic Theology Dr. Louis Berkhof devoted only nine pages to good and fallen angels. Even the historic Reformed confessions have few references to angels. The Belgic Confession affirms "the creation of all things, especially of angels" (Art. 12). The Heidelberg Catechism speaks of angels as willingly and faithfully carrying out the will of the heavenly Father (Q&A 124).

In today's Reformed spirituality the role of angels suffers from benign neglect. Reformed Christians become aware of angels only through Christmas and Easter hymns. In a discussion on angels in his dogmatics, Dr. H. Bavinck observes that Reformed Christians sin more by inattention than by excess. He finds this regrettable. He points out that although the angels are not an object of our religious devotion, they are still of great importance in the redemptive history and derive from it their value for our spirituality. I agree. I believe angelology should regain its rightful place in Reformed theology and spirituality. Angels and our Salvation Angelic appearances are always a sign of God's decisive and miraculous intervention. They are messengers of His saving plan (Cf. Heb 1:14; 1 Pet 1:12).

When Adam and Eve walked in the presence of God in paradise, angels did not make an appearance. They did not enter the stage of history until Adam and Eve fell into sin and were ousted from their perfect habitat. But immediately after the fall God began His rescue operation. He placed cherubim in front of the Garden of Eden with a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the tree of life. No living human being can ever enter paradise again. It remains untouchable and unapproachable. These four-winged cherubim serve God's wonderful plan of salvation. They had to protect Adam and Eve against themselves. In their fallen state they could no longer see God and live. At the gate of paradise the cherubim represent God's law, which Adam and Eve had disobeyed. They were forced to cut their ties with the past and go into the future with the promise of the coming Savior (Gen 3:15). And centuries later the cherubim symbolize God's presence in the midst of His people Israel (Ps 80:1). In the temple and tabernacle they revealed the mystery of God's mercy: the Holy God and sinful human beings are reconciled through the atoning sacrifices offered, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice of God's own Son (Cf. Ex 25:18f; 1 Kings 6; 2 Chron 3). Angels are focused on the history of mankind. They exist to serve God and live for His glory. They know that this glory shall not be fully realized until all the elect shall be gathered in and perfected, the world shall be renewed, and Satan shall be cast forever into outer darkness. They are eager to catch a glimpse of God's total victory over sin, death, and hell. They know everyone's standing with God. They are anxious to see sinners come to Him. They love people, God's image bearers. They long to see them become part of God's family and make their home in heaven. So each time a sinner repents there is rejoicing by the angels in the presence of God (Luke 15:10)

 

[rwb]

Recovering Worship The first and most obvious task of angels is the worship and praise of God. They stand in the presence of God and worship Him. Jesus said that the "angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven" (Matt 18:10). They have a specific task in heaven's liturgy. "Let all God's angels worship him" (Heb 1:6). While their worship activity usually takes place in God's presence, on at least one occasion they sang His praises on earth – at the birth of Jesus the angels sang, "Glory to God in the highest" (Luke 2:13 14). The angels glorify God, focusing on His majesty and holiness. For example, Isaiah writes that the seraphs, who were above the throne of God, called to another and said, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory" (Is 6:3).

The seraphs are highly placed angels, who are always in God's heavenly presence. Nowhere do we read that God gives them a mission for this earth. Isaiah's vision reveals God as the "Ruler of Glory." What a lesson for us! We must speak of God, and must speak of Him truly. He is the God Most High; He inhabits glory, and He is the sovereign Ruler of the universe. The worship of the seraphs stands in stark contrast to the breezy flippancy in many modern church services. The seraphs in Isaiah's vision reveal God's nature. Three times they repeat the single word "holy," giving the church its most solemn anthem. "Only once in sacred Scripture is an attribute of God elevated to the third degree," comments R.C. Sproul. "Only once is a characteristic of God mentioned three times in succession. The Bible says that God is holy, holy, holy. Not that He is merely holy, or even holy, holy...He is holy, holy, holy, the whole earth is full of His glory."

When we see worship in the light of the seraphs' praise, it will become a moving and even thrilling experience. Their liturgy teaches human worshippers not to become over-familiar with God. With all the attempts to make churches services seeker sensitive and friendly, the worship of the Holy God tends to be dumbed down. In worship services the seraph's song of praise is a far better model than our popular culture. Its relevance for Reformed spirituality is clearly evident. It rebukes any notion of uncontrolled experimenting in the worship of the Holy God as well as any over-familiarity in addressing Him, both of which is so common today.

As Marva J. Dawn put it: "Worship is idolatry unless it is a total waste of time in earthly terms, a total immersion in the eternity of God's infinite splendor for the sole purpose of honoring God." How do we worship Him in our supposed urbane and modern sophistication? Have we made God too small? Have we become too comfortable with the name of our God? Before our covenant God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and before the amazing truths of the death and resurrection of Christ, we cannot but fall down in awe and utter adoration, in unrestrained wonder and praise. Of course, worship is not the exclusive privilege of angels. The enjoyment and glorification of God is the chief end of God's people. We worship the same awesome God as the angels. Angels, whose primary function is to worship God, might be regarded guardians of order in public worship. We even worship with them as we gather as God's people in our church services. As John Calvin put it: "God willed to appoint the angels to care for our salvation. Consequently they attend the sacred assemblies, and the church is for them a theatre in which they marvel at the varied and manifold wisdom of God (Eph 3:10)."

I wonder whether we ever think about this when we attend church. The thought of their presence should humble us and encourage us in our worship. Thee, mighty God, heavenly King, we magnify and praise. With the angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven, we worship and praise Thy glorious name, every more praising Thee and saying: Holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts, heaven and earth are full of thy glory; Glory be to Thee, O Lord Most High. Angels in our daily lives If we believe that angels are real, constantly employed by God as His messengers and ministers of His will in the Church and in the government of the world, should we then not pay more attention to them than we have been doing? Angels work in ways unseen and unsung. The active ministry of angels is a tremendous blessing as the Church faces increased opposition and persecution. Christians are not alone in the fierce struggle with spiritual and political powers. Sometimes God shows His care for His people by dispatching angels to intervene on behalf of His suffering saints in need of heavenly encouragement. When the apostle Paul sailed to Rome to face Caesar, a fierce storm threatened to wreck the ship. Crew and passengers had given up all hope of being saved. But all hope was not lost. God intervened He sent an angel to Paul with the message, "Do not be afraid, Paul, you must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you" (Acts 27:24)

 

[rwb]

God knows our weaknesses, our perils, the enemies we constantly face, the threats to our faith. Without His help we would fall into despair, and become overpowered by the spirit of this age. In His mercy, immeasurable goodness, and kindness He sustains us and has given us innumerable guardians to help us along our journey to the New Jerusalem. As John Calvin put it: "Therefore he [God] makes use of angels to comfort weakness, that we may lack nothing at all that can raise up our minds to good hope, or confirm them in security."

Conclusion We live in perilous times. The powers of evil seem to have the upper hand. The fallen angels are impacting our culture and world, and the nearer we come to the return of our Lord the more frenetic their demonic activity. But God's powerful, faithful angels are active also; and their victory has been secured by Christ (l John 3:8). Soon the Lord will come with His angels and overcome His enemies. I pray that Reformed spirituality will no longer be known for its benign neglect of angels. In the words of Thomas F.Torrance: In the fulfillment of God's supreme purpose, angels are surely still active in their missionary as well as their providential service. Disregard of the ministry of angels will certainly lead to a serious deficiency in Christian spirituality, bringing many forms of shallowness and instability in its train. That modern eyes should be opened to the ministry of angels is very much to be desired.

 

[WPM]

I'm glad to see we are like minded as far as man's inability to come to God of his own free will after the fall. However, you haven't proven that angels of God are autonomous spirits. How can they be? God tells us His angels are "ALL ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation". For an angel of God to have autonomy, and choose to become evil spirits, would be to usurp the will of God.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The only reason you continue to argue for angels having free will is because you believe every time angelos is translated "angel" in Scripture it is a spirit of God. This ignores the FACT that angelos often translated angel is a spirit being, when in FACT this word means messenger and the context of each verse helps to determine whether angelos is a spirit being or a human being, both messengers of God.

Verses that translate angelos as angels of the dragon, or Satan an angel of light are not spirit angels of God, but "messengers" of evil.

ἄγγελος ángelos, ang'-el-os - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

The symbolic war in heaven symbolically shows when the power of Satan, and his ministers would now be defeated because the "woman brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." When Christ was born Satan became a defeated adversary, the promised Messiah had come bringing with Him salvation to man.

Revelation 12:7 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [messengers]

Satan uses mankind to accomplish his evil purposes. He enters into the hearts and minds of men in the churches masquerading as messenger (man) of light, but in reality, he and his ministers (professed Christians, in the body of Christ) while pretending to be ministers (man) of righteousness, work as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:13 (KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:14 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel [messenger] of light.
2 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I've clearly shown you how I have come to know Satan/Devils/demons have never been angels of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. My source is the written Word of God, called the BIBLE. As I've said now time and again man of old and even now continue to perpetuate (preserve; continue indefinitely) a doctrine built upon mythology, and tradition that has been passed down since man realized there needed to be an answer for the problem of sin and death. It should be easy for you to prove from the source I've used, the BIBLE, that what I have reasoned is not sound nor truth.

This is full of strawman arguments. If demons are not autonomous then what are they - robots?

With your flawed reasoning, for man to have autonomy, and choose to become evil, would be to usurp the will of God.

You do not seem to have the ability to differentiate between the perfect will of God, the permissive will of God, the proclaimed will of God, and the prevailing will of God.

 

[rwb]

This is full of strawman arguments. If demons are not autonomous then what are they - robots?

That's a good question! What are evil spirits, what is the cause for their existence?

I believe the darkness that God spoke His light into is a metaphor for spiritual death. Darkness symbolizing absence of light. God invaded the darkness when He spoke Light & Life into being. All that God created was very good, but by bringing light and life into the darkness, the spirit of darkness is there also and immediately the battle between light and darkness began.

God created mankind with freedom to choose to obey Him and live forever, but if they disobeyed and turned to the darkness, sin and death through sin would become part of creation, with darkness and death continuously replicating itself as man became more and more closely related to their new master, the father of lies, called the Devil. The battle between good and evil would become greater and greater between the spirits of God, called angels, and the spirits of the Devil, called demons.

I believe this was always the plan of God from the beginning. For mankind to understand darkness and death as well as light and life they had to experience the knowledge of good and evil. Because this could not be created in mankind but must be experienced.

Unlike humans, God sent His angels to be His spirit messengers. They are Gods ministering spirits sent to those ordained to be the heirs of salvation. The angels of God being sent for a purpose were not given the option to choose to disobey God as humans were. They are sent from God to those who would be saved to aid His chosen elect as the spiritual forces of darkness would use every means possible to prevent the Kingdom of God in heaven from being built as God sends His chosen elect (humans) unto all the world proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

You do not seem to have the ability to differentiate between the perfect will of God, the permissive will of God, the proclaimed will of God, and the prevailing will of God.

Your opinions mean nothing to me when given without proving from the Word of God what you allege.

 

[WPM]

That's a good question! What are evil spirits, what is the cause for their existence?

I believe the darkness that God spoke His light into is a metaphor for spiritual death. Darkness symbolizing absence of light. God invaded the darkness when He spoke Light & Life into being. All that God created was very good, but by bringing light and life into the darkness, the spirit of darkness is there also and immediately the battle between light and darkness began.

God created mankind with freedom to choose to obey Him and live forever, but if they disobeyed and turned to the darkness, sin and death through sin would become part of creation, with darkness and death continuously replicating itself as man became more and more closely related to their new master, the father of lies, called the Devil. The battle between good and evil would become greater and greater between the spirits of God, called angels, and the spirits of the Devil, called demons.

I believe this was always the plan of God from the beginning. For mankind to understand darkness and death as well as light and life they had to experience the knowledge of good and evil. Because this could not be created in mankind but must be experienced.

Unlike humans, God sent His angels to be His spirit messengers. They are Gods ministering spirits sent to those ordained to be the heirs of salvation. The angels of God being sent for a purpose were not given the option to choose to disobey God as humans were. They are sent from God to those who would be saved to aid His chosen elect as the spiritual forces of darkness would use every means possible to prevent the Kingdom of God in heaven from being built as God sends His chosen elect (humans) unto all the world proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God.


Your opinions mean nothing to me when given without proving from the Word of God what you allege.

You keep avoiding the questions. You are talking abstractly and obscurely. This is gibberish.

1. Who is Satan?
2. What are evil spirits?
3. Where did they come from?
4. When did they arrive on the scene?

 

[rwb]

You keep avoiding the questions. You are talking abstractly and obscurely. This is gibberish.

1. Who is Satan?
2. What are evil spirits?
3. Where did they come from?
4. When did they arrive on the scene?

I don't consider you to be a stupid or foolish person, therefore I am left to conclude that your KNOW I have biblically given answers and supported them from the Word of God! Therefore, I'm left to believe you won't accept my answers because they don't fit your unbiblical beliefs regarding the spirit realm. Though you will most likely continue to cling to a doctrine that came through myth and legend, passed down by man of Old from generation to generation, but perhaps others reading will realize the belief that Satan is a fallen angel of God has, at least for some of us, been shown to be a false doctrine to be placed in the garbage barrel.

 

[WPM]

I don't consider you to be a stupid or foolish person, therefore I am left to conclude that your KNOW I have biblically given answers and supported them from the Word of God! Therefore, I'm left to believe you won't accept my answers because they don't fit your unbiblical beliefs regarding the spirit realm. Though you will most likely continue to cling to a doctrine that came through myth and legend, passed down by man of Old from generation to generation, but perhaps others reading will realize the belief that Satan is a fallen angel of God has, at least for some of us, been shown to be a false doctrine to be placed in the garbage barrel.

You have not laid one punch on the Op. You have ducked around it. You cannot even answer simple questions. The last post is a case-in-point.

The readers can see that for themselves.

All you have is your spiritualising away of biblical realities.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am no one's clone! I have been studying the Bible for myself for many years, and though I do appreciate learning from many who are far wised than myself, I have the final word of what I believe is truth from the Word of God. It seems especially when it comes to understanding the spiritual realm, some of you are lacking spiritual discernment. And I believe it stems from your denial of some or perhaps all of the Biblical doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace presented by way of the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

This is absolutely ludicrous to try to relate the TULIP doctrines to this discussion about angels and demons. As you might have noticed, WPM and I are in complete agreement on this topic that we're discussing relating to angels and demons, but he is in agreement with your Calvinist beliefs and I am not. So, that has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Being locked in the belief that mankind has freewill causes you to carry that view into the spirit realm. You believe angels of God also have freewill and that’s why you cannot let go of the mythological and imaginary doctrine that has been passed down through the ages by man of Old.

I believe what scripture teaches, which is not mythological and imaginary.

Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of [e]the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

You allege that since God gave mankind freewill, it makes sense to you that God must have also given His angels freewill.

Wasn't this a response to WPM? He was the last person who replied to you. You aren't aware that he doesn't believe in human freewill?

You believe the angels of God who all were made ministering spirits sent to the heirs of salvation, but that some of them through freewill, became wicked and instead of ministering spirits to heirs of salvation they became corrupted by becoming human flesh & blood and produced offspring with beautiful human women, who are women in unbelief, called daughters of man.

Who said they believe this? I don't think WPM does and I know I don't. I don't believe angels are capable of procreating with humans. I believe evil spirits can possess people since we have plenty of examples of that in scripture, but they are spirit beings. Yes, they can take physical form, but that only means they can appear to be human, but doesn't mean they actually can procreate with humans.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't consider you to be a stupid or foolish person, therefore I am left to conclude that your KNOW I have biblically given answers and supported them from the Word of God! Therefore, I'm left to believe you won't accept my answers because they don't fit your unbiblical beliefs regarding the spirit realm. Though you will most likely continue to cling to a doctrine that came through myth and legend, passed down by man of Old from generation to generation, but perhaps others reading will realize the belief that Satan is a fallen angel of God has, at least for some of us, been shown to be a false doctrine to be placed in the garbage barrel.

You still haven't explained why you have loved and liked posts made by TS where the main point of his posts was to deny the existence of angels altogether, which is not something you agree with. Can you explain that? Why support that false belief of his just because you agree with him that there are no fallen angels? It's one thing to deny the existence of fallen angels, but another thing altogether to deny the existence of any angels at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm glad to see we are like minded as far as man's inability to come to God of his own free will after the fall. However, you haven't proven that angels of God are autonomous spirits. How can they be? God tells us His angels are "ALL ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation". For an angel of God to have autonomy, and choose to become evil spirits, would be to usurp the will of God.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The only reason you continue to argue for angels having free will is because you believe every time angelos is translated "angel" in Scripture it is a spirit of God. This ignores the FACT that angelos often translated angel is a spirit being, when in FACT this word means messenger and the context of each verse helps to determine whether angelos is a spirit being or a human being, both messengers of God.

Verses that translate angelos as angels of the dragon, or Satan an angel of light are not spirit angels of God, but "messengers" of evil.

ἄγγελος ángelos, ang'-el-os - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

The symbolic war in heaven symbolically shows when the power of Satan, and his ministers would now be defeated because the "woman brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." When Christ was born Satan became a defeated adversary, the promised Messiah had come bringing with Him salvation to man.

Revelation 12:7 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [messengers]

Satan uses mankind to accomplish his evil purposes. He enters into the hearts and minds of men in the churches masquerading as messenger (man) of light, but in reality, he and his ministers (professed Christians, in the body of Christ) while pretending to be ministers (man) of righteousness, work as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:13 (KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:14 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel [messenger] of light.
2 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I've clearly shown you how I have come to know Satan/Devils/demons have never been angels of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. My source is the written Word of God, called the BIBLE. As I've said now time and again man of old and even now continue to perpetuate (preserve; continue indefinitely) a doctrine built upon mythology, and tradition that has been passed down since man realized there needed to be an answer for the problem of sin and death. It should be easy for you to prove from the source I've used, the BIBLE, that what I have reasoned is not sound nor truth.

You think that the war in heaven described in Revelation 12 is only symbolic? You don't think Satan was literally, permanently cast out of heaven away from God's presence so that he could no longer accuse the brethren day and night? It says the dragon, Satan, was cast out of heaven and his angels were cast out with him. What humans were ever cast out of heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satan is NOT a Fallen Angel ~ The Bible Speaks to You

Who am I to disagree with Billy Graham? Not to mention so many Christians, who believe that Satan was once an angel. Oh well, here goes. While I deeply appreciate and revere Reverend Graham's or anyone's, commitment to Christ and all they have done to bring the message of salvation to the world...

thebiblespeakstoyou.com

Who am I to disagree with Billy Graham? Not to mention so many Christians, who believe that Satan was once an angel.

Oh well, here goes.

While I deeply appreciate and revere Reverend Graham’s or anyone’s, commitment to Christ and all they have done to bring the message of salvation to the world, I cannot join hands with them on this teaching that the devil was originally an angel in heaven.

The Scriptural texts used to support this theory are taken out of context and twisted to say things that are not accurate. And other sources, ancient and modern, are used as authority for things not found in the Bible.

But in this discussion, I’ll refer only to things in Scripture.

Let’s look at one of the most often quoted Bible verses on this subject.


Everyone I have ever heard expostulate on Satan, including Billy Graham, uses this verse to “prove” he was originally an angel who has fallen from heaven. But if you read the whole chapter these two verses are part of, you get a very different picture of what’s being discussed.

If you haven’t read all of Isaiah chapter 14 recently, I suggest you do that sooner than later.

At first glance, you can see why many people associate this passage with Satan. There’s all kind of hell imagery. Fallen from heaven. The grave. Worms. Death. Wicked kings. Brought down to hell. The sides of the pit.

None of these verses is referring to Satan or an angel. Check out verse 4: “…thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!”

This passage is referring to the king of Babylon, a man not an angel, nor an angel who has fallen from heaven and become Satan.

The fact that this passage refers to a man is re-emphasized in verse 16: “They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;”

Notice those words, “Is this the man…” If this was referring to Satan, who had previously been an angel, the passage would have to read, “Is this the angel…”

What does Ezekiel have to say?​

Another passage heavily quoted to bolster up this man-made doctrine that Satan is a fallen angel is in Chapter 28 of Ezekiel. You’ll need to read the whole chapter to see the complete picture. In fact, you really need to read Chapters 25 – 32 to get the overview of what God is commanding Ezekiel to say to various rulers and countries who have defied Him and treated the Children of Israel with contempt.

In Chapter 25, God rails against the Ammonites, the land of Moab and Seir, the Edomites and Philistines. Chapters 26 – 28 focus on Tyre (Tryus) and her rulers. The last half of Chapter 28 is a pronouncement against Sidon (Zidon). Chapters 30 – 32 are God’s words against Egypt and its Pharaoh.

I mention all these chapters in Ezekiel because many of them contain imagery and metaphors to illustrate certain points. For example, Pharaoh is called a “great dragon that lies in the midst of his streams, that says, ‘My Nile is my own; I made it for myself.’” (Ez 29:3)

And in verse 4, God tells Pharaoh, “I will put hooks in your jaws, and make the fish of your streams stick to your scales; and I will draw you up out of the midst of your streams, with all the fish of your streams that stick to your scales.”

For all those folks who insist we have to take the Bible literally, this passage is going to present a few problems. Pharaoh was not literally a dragon in the Nile. He did not literally have scales. God was not literally going to put hooks in his jaw. These are metaphors to illustrate that God will deal decisively with Pharaoh.

There are many more metaphors and imagery in the other chapters mentioned above, which you can discover for yourself.

But let’s take a look specifically at Chapter 28. Here’s another hotbed of fallen-angel imagery that gets falsely attributed to Satan.

The chapter starts out with God telling Ezekiel to rebuke the ruler in Tyre (Tyrus-KJV):


Here again, notice the words, “yet you are but a man, and no god.” Or angel, I might add.

But wait, there’s more!

The rant against the king of Tyre continues using imagery to describe how wonderful the king of Tyre had been. Read the whole chapter for yourself. Here are bits of it:

• You were in Eden, the garden of God; (v. 13)
• You were an anointed guardian cherub. (v. 14)
• You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. (v. 15)
• Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; (v. 17)

If you read these verses out of context and by themselves and then declare with wonder that they refer to Satan’s previous status as a cherub or angel in heaven, many will agree with you.

But these verses are hurled at the king of Tyre. He was not literally a cherub in Eden anymore than Pharaoh was a dragon in the Nile with scales.

Continued

If you want to be taken seriously about this, then tell me who the angels are that are referenced in 2 Peter 2:4. You said before that they are the ungodly in Noah's day, but that can't possibly be correct because "the angels that sinned" are contrasted with the ungodly of Noah's day and the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. In 2 Peter 2:4-6, Peter referenced three different groups that were rebellious against God and punished by God.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Verse 4 references "the angels that sinned". Verse 5 references "the ancient world" made up of "the ungodly" in Noah's day. Verse 6 references the "ungodly" in "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah". So, who are the angels that sinned if not literal angels?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So there you have it. My case against Satan being a fallen angel. I could say much more, but I’ll leave it there.

Perhaps the real question is why people hold onto this false doctrine. Partly because we were taught it and we didn’t do our own research. And because we need some mechanism to explain evil. We have to have some reason to articulate why it exists. If we can find a way that God had something to do with it, we accept it, even if it doesn’t make sense. That’s exactly what the devil wants us to believe, that God created evil.

So, why do you believe that then? You say the devil was created evil, right? That means you believe God created evil. But, scripture teaches that everything God created was very good.

As always, I welcome your thoughts and perspectives. I am always open to honest conversation on these kinds of topics. If there is something you feel I have overlooked on this subject, please let me know.

See above. You say that you don't believe God created evil, which is correct, but you also say that the devil was naturally evil and was always evil from the very beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth. God created the devil, right? So, that means you believe God created evil by way of the devil.

 

[WPM]

You think that the war in heaven described in Revelation 12 is only symbolic? You don't think Satan was literally, permanently cast out of heaven away from God's presence so that he could no longer accuse the brethren day and night? It says the dragon, Satan, was cast out of heaven and his angels were cast out with him. What humans were ever cast out of heaven?

What is next? Are they going to symbolize Jesus and God next? What about heaven and hell? This is scary.

 

[WPM]

I don't consider you to be a stupid or foolish person, therefore I am left to conclude that your KNOW I have biblically given answers and supported them from the Word of God! Therefore, I'm left to believe you won't accept my answers because they don't fit your unbiblical beliefs regarding the spirit realm. Though you will most likely continue to cling to a doctrine that came through myth and legend, passed down by man of Old from generation to generation, but perhaps others reading will realize the belief that Satan is a fallen angel of God has, at least for some of us, been shown to be a false doctrine to be placed in the garbage barrel.

You keep telling us what you don't believe, but you will not tell us what you do believe.

1. Who is Satan?
2. What are evil spirits?
3. Where did they come from?
4. When did they arrive on the scene?

 

[WPM]

The chapter starts out with God telling Ezekiel to rebuke the ruler in Tyre (Tyrus-KJV):

Here again, notice the words, “yet you are but a man, and no god.” Or angel, I might add.

But wait, there’s more!

The rant against the king of Tyre continues using imagery to describe how wonderful the king of Tyre had been. Read the whole chapter for yourself. Here are bits of it:

• You were in Eden, the garden of God; (v. 13)
• You were an anointed guardian cherub. (v. 14)
• You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. (v. 15)
• Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; (v. 17)

If you read these verses out of context and by themselves and then declare with wonder that they refer to Satan’s previous status as a cherub or angel in heaven, many will agree with you.

But these verses are hurled at the king of Tyre. He was not literally a cherub in Eden anymore than Pharaoh was a dragon in the Nile with scales.

Continued

Isaiah 14:3-11: “And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.”

Isaiah 14 12-17 continues, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

This is speaking about Satan.

• Lucifer lost his exalted place in heaven when he rebelled.
• This talks about a future day when we (the elect) will see the devil for who he really is. That is the day that we will know even as we are known. It is when we are perfected. Satan will be exposed for the fool he is.
• We also see here, Satan will not willingly let his followers go. He keeps them imprisoned.

Ezekiel 28:12-19: “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.

• First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
• Second, the king of Tyrus was definitely not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
• Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
• Fourthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
• Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
• Sixthly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
• Seventhly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.

These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was an anointed guardian cherub (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17).

 

[rwb]

You have not laid one punch on the Op. You have ducked around it. You cannot even answer simple questions. The last post is a case-in-point.

The readers can see that for themselves
All you have is your spiritualising away of biblical realities.

Honestly Paul, spiritualizing??? You know as well as I do the Bible is written using material, physical things that when we possess guidance through the Spirit of Christ in us, we might come to understand these things are used to point us to deeper spiritual truths regarding the Kingdom of God.

Instead of using "spiritualizing" in a way that I assume seeks to prove I have come to private interpretation, show where I have spiritualized some things without using the Word of God as my guide. Be careful though because we who live in glass houses should not throw stones. And I'm sure you don't want to show yourself to be a hypocrite! Didn't you make a spiritual case for stars being angels of God? It's not wrong to use spiritual understanding of material, physical things that give us greater understanding of God who is Spirit.

 

[rwb]

You still haven't explained why you have loved and liked posts made by TS where the main point of his posts was to deny the existence of angels altogether, which is not something you agree with. Can you explain that? Why support that false belief of his just because you agree with him that there are no fallen angels? It's one thing to deny the existence of fallen angels, but another thing altogether to deny the existence of any angels at all.

I love and like replies by people in these forums who show they have come to understand spiritual things, through the Spirit of Christ in them regarding God and His spiritual Kingdom. It's not denying the existence of spirit beings in showing they exist in us. Even though that is how a number of you tried to spin some replies to make it appear to support the thing you deny! I would not say man becomes the spirit of messengers of God (angels), or spirit of messengers of Satan (devils/demons), but it should not be denied that humans become so much like the spirits within us, that we are called of our father the Devil, or of our Father God.

 

[rwb]

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

One more time, angelos is defined MESSENGER! "God did not spare the MESSENGERS who sinned", man, not spirit beings, neither angel or demon, but HUMAN MESSENGERS of God living in the days of Noah. And God did not spare the ancient world IT WAS NOT SPARED BECAUSE GOD BROUGHT THE FLOOD THAT CAUSED IT TO PERISH! But saved Noah + for a total of 8 people! So it goes with Sodom & Gomorrah the cities destroyed.

2 Peter 3:6 (KJV) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2 Peter 3:6 (YLT) through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed;

This is written to be an example for the churches to learn that God will not allow sin to continue indefinitely, the Judgment of God shall come upon the ungodly!

Literal translations, as well as the Concordant Version, another literal translation got it right!

2 Peter 2:4 (YLT) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,