Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

[Spiritual Israelite]

Steering back to the topic . . .

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

The fact that the nations are judged righteous or wicked based on their works shows a new dispensation. Those "in Christ" are judged righteous being baptized into Jesus Christ, so again, they do not fit here.

Nowhere in all of scripture does it teach that anyone's eternal destiny will ever be based on their works. You are sadly mistaken. The only way that anyone who has ever lived can inherit eternal life is if they had faith. Salvation never has been and never will be based on works.

 

[David in NJ]

The rapture doctrine I hold is that those who are in Christ are removed from earth. I don't actually know anyone who thinks we will be moved to a different place on the earth.

One of the most notable, to me, is, any POV of a gathering that combines the church and Israel being gathered together contradicts Jesus' Olivette prophecy, which brings us back to the OP. The church fits neither gathering. Nor does it fit the sheep/goats gathering.

Just to mention . . . I've got a lot going on today suddenly, I'm hoping to give your post another read, and a more thoughtful response.

Much love!

the REAL danger to 'christians' is that they are being told from pastors these falsehoods:

a) The Church will not be here to see or confront the Antichrist

b.) Any new technology is not the Mark because we won't be here via pre-trib rapture"

c.) Those who suffer satan's wrath are saints who get saved AFTER the pre-trib rapture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

the REAL danger to 'christians' is that they are being told from pastors these falsehoods:

a) The Church will not be here to see or confront the Antichrist

b.) Any new technology is not the Mark because we won't be here via pre-trib rapture"

c.) Those who suffer satan's wrath are saints who get saved AFTER the pre-trib rapture

Pre-tribs don't believe anyone who supposedly gets saved after the supposed pre-trib rapture would be part of the church because they think the church will have already been raptured before that. So, instead of being part of the church those people would just be "trib saints". Ugh. Scripture never teaches such a thing. Anyone who is saved at any time is part of the church.

 

[David in NJ]

Pre-tribs don't believe anyone who supposedly gets saved after the supposed pre-trib rapture would be part of the church because they think the church will have already been raptured before that. So, instead of being part of the church those people would just be "trib saints". Ugh. Scripture never teaches such a thing. Anyone who is saved at any time is part of the church.

i have heard them claim "two churches/brides"

they also say they JESUS has two brides this way = a Jewish bride and a Gentile bride

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

i have heard them claim "two churches/brides"

they also say they JESUS has two brides this way = a Jewish bride and a Gentile bride

And that's clearly false. You can't find any scripture which teaches that Jesus has 2 brides. Paul showed who the one bride of Christ is in Ephesians 5:22-33 and it's the church made up of Jew and Gentile believers.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, there is just one body in Christ.

Romans 12:5
so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

God won't be splitting - dividing the body of Christ, as in come for one part of the body of Christ at a pretrib rapture gathering, then later on gathering- rapturing another body of Christ. What!, does Christ have 2 brides or more? He comes for His bride.
God is very specific in scripture, one man joined to one woman in marriage.

1 Corinthians 12:12

​

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.


Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

John 3:29 ESV​

The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

 

[marks]

Their number is symbolic of all the saved persons in Christ, including women!

No it's not. It's an ordinal number and it means what it says. It's not about all people alive, or all people of this or that sort. It's about what it says it's about.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

No it's not. It's an ordinal number and it means what it says. It's not about all people alive, or all people of this or that sort. It's about what it says it's about.

Much love!

12 x 12 is 144

Meaning of the Number 12 in the Bible

Why does the number 12 represent a perfect governmental foundation? Who were the twelve patriarchs from Shem to Jacob?

www.biblestudy.org

Meaning of the Number 144 in the Bible

How is number 144 related to why humans exist? How immensely thick will be New Jerusalem's walls?

www.biblestudy.org

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the [j]names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand [k]furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

The New Jerusalem where the saints are, see the numbered comparison?
Can't miss this symbolism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No it's not. It's an ordinal number and it means what it says. It's not about all people alive, or all people of this or that sort. It's about what it says it's about.

Much love!

Do you take this same approach to the entire book of Revelation? When you say "it's about what it says it's about" you mean that it's meant to be taken literally as written. So, with that in mind, make sure you are on the lookout for a literal seven-headed, ten-horned beast and literal seven-headed, ten-horned dragon because that's what the text says and it's about what it says it's about.

 

[covenantee]

i have heard them claim "two churches/brides"

they also say they JESUS has two brides this way = a Jewish bride and a Gentile bride

They claim that the Church is the heavenly bride and Israel is the earthly bride.

But they never admit that their Jesus is a polygamist.

Same here. So, it's a good thing I believe it. I would not accuse you of not believing it, but you just like to be rude like that for no reason.


LOL. You talk as if the entire Bible is literal text. You know it's not. So, yes, sometimes, we have to discern whether the text is literal, symbolic, poetic, Apocalyptic, hyperbolic and so on. What is wrong with that? It's silly to act like everything is literal when everyone knows that is not the case. Your hyperliteral method of interpretations leads you to think that Matthew 25:31-46 has something to do with Gentiles either inheriting eternal life or being cast into everlasting fire on the basis of how they treated Israel. A concept that is not taught anywhere in scripture. One's eternal destiny is based on whether or not they had faith, not whether or not they supported Israel.


You are being foolish. To say that someone is not believing in scripture just because they don't take the same hyper-literal approach as you do is utter nonsense. If you think your doctrines are Scriptural you should be able to defend your doctrines, but you can't do it. Any time your doctrine is challenged you whine about the way someone is talking (despite your rude accusations that others are not believing scripture) and you run away and don't bother addressing any challenges to your doctrine. Why are you even here if you're not willing to address other's points? All you seem capable of doing is falsely accusing others of not believing in scripture just because they disagree with you, which is just plain stupid.


Do you believe the words of the following scriptures which show that the heavens and earth will be burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, bringing "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [a]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.


You're not showing much love when you accuse others of not believing in scripture.

Amens in laying it on the line, bro.

 

[marks]

I understand the confusion here. I was referring to Jesus' comment in his Olivet Discourse in which he warned there would be false Christs *on the earth* who claimed to be the Coming of the Messiah. His Coming was not then viewed as a Rapture of the Faithful to Heaven, but rather, in the context of an earthly cult claiming that Christ has revealed himself among them.

OK. I don't see that relates to the pre-trib rapture, which involves removing those in Christ from this world.

This is why some consider Revelation 3:10 to be a rapture passage, "I will keep you out of the hour of testing", the keep someone from the time that testing is happening means they are not in this world at that time.

This is the corrupted form of Messiah's Coming that is able to deceive even believers. And that's what I think Paul was referring to. It is an appearance of a False Christ in the Wilderness or some other place *on earth.* That is where the deception would come from, according to Jesus.

I'm not really following you here, could you point me to Paul's passage that he warns believers of this?

Matt 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Please notice the contrast Jesus makes between False Christs appearing to his disciples *on the earth* and Christ's view of his 2nd Coming and revelation *from heaven.*

I see this more related to the Watchtower, for instance.

So, the believers in Thessalonica were not necessarily expecting a Rapture to heaven, but may have been vulnerable to some earthly appearance of someone who claimed to be Messiah and had a large following, indicating he may be the real deal.

I don't see that.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We are meeting Jesus in the air, to ever more be with Him.

The only people I know that think Jesus will rapture people to a location on the earth are post trib. That we meet Him to "escort Him to the earth". Pre-tribbers typically think Jesus takes us into heaven until we return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Pre-wrathers typically think we will remain in the sky with Jesus as He pours out His wrath.

No problem. I'm curious, later, to learn why you think the Rapture of Jewish believers and Gentile believers into immortality contradicts the conversion of Jews on earth to Christ?

There is no contradiction, per se, only that the Israelites gathered when Jesus comes, the chosen, don't include the "righteous gentiles" as they will be gathered later. So they are not part of "the chosen". And the "righteous gentiles" are known not by being the children of God, and are not considered righteous because of faith in Christ, rather, they are known by their works, and because of their works, they are declared righteous. The body of Christ is imputed with righteousness through their faith.

This is how the body of Christ does not fit either gathering.

Paul wrote that Israel is partially blinded until the "full number of gentiles is come in". It all harmonizes together.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

They claim that the Church is the heavenly bride and Israel is the earthly bride.

But they never admit that their Jesus is a polygamist.

Amens in laying it on the line, bro.

GENESIS = Marriage = One MAN to One WOMAN

The LAW/Moses = the KING shall NOT multiply wives unto them = Deut 17:17

JESUS/Gospel = Marriage = One Man to One Woman = Matt 19:3-6

 

[David in NJ]

OK. I don't see that relates to the pre-trib rapture, which involves removing those in Christ from this world.

This is why some consider Revelation 3:10 to be a rapture passage, "I will keep you out of the hour of testing", the keep someone from the time that testing is happening means they are not in this world at that time.

I'm not really following you here, could you point me to Paul's passage that he warns believers of this?

I see this more related to the Watchtower, for instance.

I don't see that.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We are meeting Jesus in the air, to ever more be with Him.

The only people I know that think Jesus will rapture people to a location on the earth are post trib. That we meet Him to "escort Him to the earth". Pre-tribbers typically think Jesus takes us into heaven until we return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Pre-wrathers typically think we will remain in the sky with Jesus as He pours out His wrath.



There is no contradiction, per se, only that the Israelites gathered when Jesus comes, the chosen, don't include the "righteous gentiles" as they will be gathered later. So they are not part of "the chosen". And the "righteous gentiles" are known not by being the children of God, and are not considered righteous because of faith in Christ, rather, they are known by their works, and because of their works, they are declared righteous. The body of Christ is imputed with righteousness through their faith.

This is how the body of Christ does not fit either gathering.

Paul wrote that Israel is partially blinded until the "full number of gentiles is come in". It all harmonizes together.

Much love!

If you LISTENED to the Apostle Paul you would KNOW that the Gentiles are being brought in to One Nation that CHRIST established in HIMSELF = Jew and Gentile in One Body of Christ = just as JESUS Promised = Matthew 21:33-43

Romans chapters 9 thru 11 CONCLUDE with One BODY of CHRIST for the Jew and the Gentile

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them/Jews.
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them/Jews in again.
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

 

[Scott Downey]

"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."
Yes, God might choose to show mercy.
And God might not, leaving them hardened.
Not speaking except very generally of whom 'they' are who will receive mercy from God.

Romans 9

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[David in NJ]

OK. I don't see that relates to the pre-trib rapture, which involves removing those in Christ from this world.

This is why some consider Revelation 3:10 to be a rapture passage, "I will keep you out of the hour of testing", the keep someone from the time that testing is happening means they are not in this world at that time.

I'm not really following you here, could you point me to Paul's passage that he warns believers of this?

I see this more related to the Watchtower, for instance.

I don't see that.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We are meeting Jesus in the air, to ever more be with Him.

The only people I know that think Jesus will rapture people to a location on the earth are post trib. That we meet Him to "escort Him to the earth". Pre-tribbers typically think Jesus takes us into heaven until we return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Pre-wrathers typically think we will remain in the sky with Jesus as He pours out His wrath.



There is no contradiction, per se, only that the Israelites gathered when Jesus comes, the chosen, don't include the "righteous gentiles" as they will be gathered later. So they are not part of "the chosen". And the "righteous gentiles" are known not by being the children of God, and are not considered righteous because of faith in Christ, rather, they are known by their works, and because of their works, they are declared righteous. The body of Christ is imputed with righteousness through their faith.

This is how the body of Christ does not fit either gathering.

Paul wrote that Israel is partially blinded until the "full number of gentiles is come in". It all harmonizes together.

Much love!

Where in Romans chapters 9 thru 11 did the Apostle Paul ever state that the Gentiles are removed/separated from Jews in CHRIST?

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 3 - New King James Version

The Mystery Revealed - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when...

www.biblegateway.com

Brought Near by His Blood​

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace​

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Christ Our Cornerstone​

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

The Mystery Revealed​

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clearly Paul includes believing gentiles into the family of God along with believing Jews, and considers them of the commonwealth of Israel, as one new man from the two.

 

[David in NJ]

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 3 - New King James Version

The Mystery Revealed - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when...

www.biblegateway.com

Brought Near by His Blood​

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace​

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Christ Our Cornerstone​

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

The Mystery Revealed​

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clearly Paul includes believing gentiles into the family of God along with believing Jews, and considers them of the commonwealth of Israel, as one new man from the two.

"Brought into the COMMON/WEALTH of ISRAEL"

1 - Saved Gentiles are now common with the saved Jews = no distinction between the two
2 - Saved Gentiles share in One Wealth(Salvation/Glory/Righteousness/Blessing) with the saved Jews
3 - Saved Gentiles are now PERMANENT Members of ISRAEL

 

[marks]

Clearly Paul includes believing gentiles into the family of God along with believing Jews, and considers them of the commonwealth of Israel, as one new man from the two.

Of course he does! And, In Christ, neither Greek nor Jew. What would you say is the significance of that fact, neither Greek nor Jew? This is not just flowery speech of a nice warm kumbuya, he actually means something here. Neither Greek, nor Jew. What is the significance?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course he does! And, In Christ, neither Greek nor Jew. What would you say is the significance of that fact, neither Greek nor Jew? This is not just flowery speech of a nice warm kumbuya, he actually means something here. Neither Greek, nor Jew. What is the significance?

The significance is that one's ethnicity or nationality has no bearing at all on being a child of God, just as being male or female has no bearing on that, and just as being bond/slave or free has no bearing on that.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[marks]

The New Jerusalem where the saints are, see the numbered comparison?
Can't miss this symbolism.

Unless you have something in Scritpure which actually says this, it remains your opinion based on the similarity of numbers.

David selected 24 courses of priests to organize the priestly service given the number of priests there were at that time. The one that served stood in for his family, yet he was still one actual man who served in a single role.

The 24 elders in heaven are 24 elders. Some say they represent the church like the 24 priests represented the families. But the church isn't divided into families, so it breaks down. And the 24 courses of priests, the Bible actually tells us what this all is. The 24 elders, nothing says they are anything other than 24 elders. Maybe Jonadab, and others whom God made promises to. But that's just my speculation, I don't know.

Just because we see the same numbers in various places doesn't mean we can go beyond what is written. When we do, it is just sharing our personal opinions. For myself, I prefer what has Scriptural Authority, and not, "You can't miss it, it's obvious." To you then. To me, what the words tell us seems rather obvious.

Much love!