How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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I've always disliked the word begotten because in other languages the meaning is more clear.
GENERATED would be a clearer meaning.
IF you're right then Jesus was created....it doesn't matter WHEN.
Yet you say I'm right in stating that Jesus was NOT created.
So some confusion here.
I agree that it's really difficult to speak of eternity.
Jesus was not born from the Father, as a child would be born of the mother (and father).
Jesus was always God and always existed.
A created being cannot be God because there can only be one God and it would have to be the one doing the creating.
You're doing what @Grailhunter is doing....you're not denying that Jesus is God,,,but you're creating two gods.
This is one of the heresies the early church fought and for which the creeds were written.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
If only God can create...
and Jesus can create....
and there is only one God as 1 Cor states....
then we cannot create another god but must come to some understanding that
God Father and God Son are ONE BEING...ONE NATURE.
Agreed on the time...who can understand it?
But did God plan with the Son?
Doesn't Genesis just state that God said?
(and Jesus was there).
What happened to:
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning...from always (time is difficult to grasp as @Brakelite has noted)
THE WORD was with God and the WORD was God.
Jesus is THE WORD.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh,,,
And THE WORD became flesh.
John is saying that THE WORD always exised and then, at some point, became flesh.
Yeah, it got confusing, because he mixed different claims into one sentence.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That is OK, old habits dies hard.....so do false beliefs.....I am not mad at you for not believing me.
This one has its own life because it is not biblical......They are named in the Bible.....How clearer does it need to be?
Over a hundred scriptures prove the one God formula wrong hands down.
The term Trinity is not in the Bible. The ECF's? The ECF's coined the term Trinity early on, but did not define it as 3 Gods in one. It was not until the Ecumenical Councils has unresolvable disagreements regarding Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit that they come up with the Trinity being 3 in 1 because Emperor Constitine demanded an agreement. So the council came up with the 3 in 1 formula and excommunicated or killed anyone that opposed it.
The Bible can say simple and clear things and people do not pay attention. Yeshua created? The Bible says He was conceived and born and had a mother. Called the Son of God and well known as the Son of God. Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way....."The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was not reached only until the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief."
So now you can say you heard it from someone besides me.
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I understand, no worries.
That being said, I still think the Septuagint (LXX), which was available in Jesus' day, is still a good resource.
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic
Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the...
www.scripturecatholic.com
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There is no way to harmonize this with the Old Testament. No way to get out of picking one or the other. In the Old Testament Yahweh created everything and He said He created everything and He repeated said He was the only God and there was no other like Him. Taking creation away from the Father is demoting Him.
And according to the Mosaic Law anyone that said there was another God was executed. Of course that changed when the one God had a Son.
Some were fixated on the Word.....Logos thing and it was decidedly Gnostic coming from the Greeks in the 6th century BC.
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I have nothing against Septuagint, it seems closer to the New Testament citations than the Masoretic text.I understand, no worries.
That being said, I still think the Septuagint (LXX), which was available in Jesus' day, is still a good resource.
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic
Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the...
However, no available edition of the Septuagint uses the YHWH tetragrammaton.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Born is not created....And no biblical explanation for the pre-existing Yeshua forming Himself as a fetus and Scotty beaming Him into Miriam's worm. And then you have the perpetual virgin thing where Scotty beams Him in her womb and out of her womb. The Bible does not explain anything like that and if it did it would be weird ..... and the words conceived and born and begotten would not fit into that explanation. It would be different and Yeshua would not be the Son of God......Just another God. One of many arguments of the Ecumenical Councils.
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How is God's involvement not explained?
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
It's only important that the Holy Spirit was always mentioned,,,
He comes from the Father of course....
Jesus said He would send a helper...
from where?
From heaven.
The Holy Spirit is referred to as a person:
Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
If the Holy Spirit intercedes for us...
to Whom is He interceding?
The Father
The persons do speak to each other.
As Jesus spoke to Father in the Garden.
The Holy Spirit is represented as a Person:
Ephesians 4:30a
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
1 Corinthians 12:11
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Acts 8:29
29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
But the NT teaches that God spoke but Jesus did the creating:
John 1:3
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing * came into being that has come into being.
Jesus is throughout the OT.
Whenever God was SEEN...it was Jesus.
Same difference.
If He CAME INTO BEING,
it means God created Him and He's a created being.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Known as the Son of God not the Son of the Holy Spirit. Or if 3 in 1 Son of Themselves?
I am not saying the Holy Spirit was not involved......just wonder how.
You are right the New Testament does teach that, but the Old Testament does not. Yahweh did all the creating and according to Him there was no other God....no other God to create anything. And Yahweh said several times no other God.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Conceived is not created, the word conceived is used not created. If He was not conceived He was not the Son of God.
Born is not created....And no biblical explanation for the pre-existing Yeshua forming Himself as a fetus and Scotty beaming Him into Miriam's worm. And then you have the perpetual virgin thing where Scotty beams Him in her womb and out of her womb. The Bible does not explain anything like that and if it did it would be weird ..... and the words conceived and born and begotten would not fit into that explanation. It would be different and Yeshua would not be the Son of God......Just another God. One of many arguments of the Ecumenical Councils.
In that case "Yahweh" does not refer to just Father, but can be interchangeably applied to each person of the Trinity. Problem solved?
No, three is better, because that is the New Testament teaching. And persons in Trinity are not like three parts (arms), that would be partialism and a heresy.
And stop mocking Christianity, thanks.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Nope ,way off.
Jesus is the creator.
In your model of assumptions you now have Jesus creating himself.
Only in retrospect.
There was no Jesus before the Word (Logos) became flesh.
I know you haven't read all my posts - I also do not read every post on any given thread.
(try my post no. 831)
So since I know Jesus is the creator,,,
HOW have I made Him the creator in the post to which you are responding??
I know what you mean SS....
BUT
Jesus is THE WORD....
THE WORD always existed.
The Word became flesh (John 1:14)
but The Word existed even before that.
Again:
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh,
The Word was with God and was God and the Word became flesh.
But the Word existed even before the Word became flesh.
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