How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So was “calling God his own Father” really “making himself equal with God”?

Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder.
So yes, they believed He was making Himself equal with God.

St. SteVen said:
John 8:57-59 NIV
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.

If you see what the question was that he was answering there...it was that he claimed to have existed before Abraham.....and this is what they were riled up about....Jesus didn’t say “before Abraham was born I am”....

Well, they picked up stones to stone Him.
Was it blasphemy to claim that you existed before Abraham?
Viewed as blasphemy either way.

 

[GodsGrace]

Known as the Son of God not the Son of the Holy Spirit. Or if 3 in 1 Son of Themselves?
I am not saying the Holy Spirit was not involved......just wonder how.

Ah,,,but the Holy Spirit is the SAME God as the Father.
THIS is why it's important to understand the Trinity and why the early fathers/theologians reasoned it out so well.

Jesus' mother is Mary.
His "father" is God...
He had to be born AS A PERFECT HUMAN in order to be the proper atonement and final sacrifice for our sins.

No need to try to understand every little detail.

You are right the New Testament does teach that, but the Old Testament does not. Yahweh did all the creating and according to Him there was no other God....no other God to create anything. And Yahweh said several times no other God.

So now you're pitting the OT with the NT.

Jesus was always in the OT.

Conceived is not created, the word conceived is used not created. If He was not conceived He was not the Son of God.
Born is not created....And no biblical explanation for the pre-existing Yeshua forming Himself as a fetus and Scotty beaming Him into Miriam's worm. And then you have the perpetual virgin thing where Scotty beams Him in her womb and out of her womb. The Bible does not explain anything like that and if it did it would be weird ..... and the words conceived and born and begotten would not fit into that explanation. It would be different and Yeshua would not be the Son of God......Just another God. One of many arguments of the Ecumenical Councils.

God is the Alpha and the Omega.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

The ideas being put forth here are numerous and I don't even think this topic should be debated.
So I'll have to withdraw.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a good point....how do finite beings comprehend infinity?

Yes, we are talking titles here.....can titles be held by more than one person in Scripture?
Is “Savior” an exclusive title? No! There are a few mentioned in OT Scripture who were bearers of that title, as was Jesus. (Judges 9:3; 15) The word in Hebrew is “yāšaʿ”......the same word that was used in Isa 43:11.

Can we remember the names of any of them?

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” however conveys the idea of the start and the finish or completion of a thing. The personage who is so designated would, therefore, be viewed as the beginner of certain things and the one who brings these things to a successful conclusion.

Based on what is revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures, the title “the Alpha and the Omega” would certainly fit Yahweh. But does the title apply exclusively to God?

Let’s unpack Revelation 1:7-8...

Apparently....but...In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.” Jesus is never addressed by those titles. “The Lord God” in Hebrew Scripture is Yahweh. And since Yahweh is “Almighty” meaning “Omnipotent”...he alone possesses infinite power.

I guess you forgot to notice that Revelation is speaking about Jesus.

Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17; Rev 3:12) whilst he was still on earth and even after his ascension to heaven. How does God have a God in heaven?

Did you not know that the 3 Persons of the Trintiy speak to each other?
This might be due to the fact that you don't accept the Trinity.

According to Rev 1:1, the Revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God. Hence, we should expect the words of the Almighty God to be quoted in the account. The first reference to “the Alpha and the Omega” is obviously an example of this....but in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev 1:9) This provides additional confirmation that John understood God to be a separate personage to his Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh my.
Was Jesus a Person of dignity?
Thomas called Him God.
Why didn't Jesus correct Him?

It would be nice to get into the stoning of Stephen too...
Could you tell us WHY Stephen was stoned?
Acts 7:54-59

Being the eternal God, Yahweh has at all times been the Almighty. (Psalm 90:2) So, in the indefinite past, he was always the “Almighty God” and will come in that capacity to execute his judgment....his son will carry out that judgment.
The Scriptures recognize that all power comes from this “Almighty” source....Jesus had no power of himself, but at his baptism received the Holy Spirit, which empowered him to perform supernatural fetes.

The Bible also recognizes that Jesus had no authority of his own, and no teachings of his own....he was “given” them by his Father. (Matt 28:18; John 17:16)...so this proves that Jesus was not God on earth, but that he shared the title “theos” (god) in heaven. (John 1:1)

In keeping with the meaning of that word, Christ could be “divine” without being “deity”.

What's the difference?

John sees the holy city New Jerusalem bringing God’s rulership to the earth....to “men”....so how was God going to be “among” these “men”, since Moses was told that “no man may see God and yet live”.

Hebrews 11:26
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown * up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Jesus existed even at the time of the OT.

How was God “with” his people Israel? Did he need to be physically present? No....he appointed human representatives like Moses to guide and direct his nation. Moses spoke of a prophet like himself who was to come...

Deut 18:18-19....God said to Moses....
I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19  Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.”

Peter confirmed that Jesus was that “prophet” (Acts 3:21-23)

Peter confirmed Jesus was THE CHRIST....
Matthew 16:16
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

NOT a son
THE son.

A monnogenius son....
unique.

The Revelation came from Yahweh....through Jesus, to an angel, and then to John. Yahweh is the source of all things...including this “water of life” that was promised.

The God of Jesus Christ, who could do nothing, and promise nothing, from himself. Every promise he conveyed was from his God and Father.

Who rose Jesus from the dead?

God Father
Acts 2:24
24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible * for Him to be held in its power.

God Son
John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Only God can raise from the dead.

All the things that God promised mankind, came “through” his son....but not “from” him.
Col 1:15-17 confirms that Jesus is God’s “firstborn” who existed before anything or anyone else. Creation was made “through him and for him”, which makes creation a gift to the son from his Father.

Together they brought it all into existence, but all the power was from one source....God’s powerful spirit.
The Almighty God and his son is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26. (Prov 8: 22-31)

If together they brought all into existence
BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Then they were both eternal and only God is eternal.

If we can understand the stewardship of the Christ as God’s Commander in Chief...his mouthpiece (logos) to the world of mankind, then we can appreciate his role as it is...not as something invented by an apostate church system centuries after Christ’s death.

Logos is more than a "mouthpiece".

Jesus had to save creation from what Adam did to us. Satan had tempted the humans into disobedience and sullied God’s gift, but in his love for what he had helped to bring into existence, Jesus gladly offered his life to save us, and to restore God’s gift to what God had originally intended for it. (Isa 55:11)

Jesus will resurrect all the dead and give each individual what they deserve.....he is not going to read labels.....but even the power to resurrect the dead comes from God. Until Jesus was 30 years old he was just ‘Jesus the carpenters son’ in the minds of men....only at his baptism, and with the power of the Holy Spirit did Jesus become “the Christ”.

Jesus has been appointed by his God and Father to do the judging.
John 5: 22...
“ For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son”.
The son renders his Father’s righteous judgment.

Only God can judge the soul of a person.
Each Person of the Trinity does have their own particular work to accomplish...
although is unison.

The “Alpha and the Omega” is a title that the Almighty alone claims as his own....he is “the beginning and end” of all things, which take place according to his will, and are carried out with his power alone. A power he gives generously in due measure to those who are faithful to him, and who follow the teachings of his son......all of which came from his God and Father.

Agreed.
This is why Jesus is God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why not? We aren't told how, but we are told numerous times of the very real ontological relationship between Father and Son. The apostle John even said that without a relationship with them both, we are lost. Which is why it is so important we get their relationship right.
Would you agree that when Scripture says God gave His only begotten Son, them out follows that God had a Son to send? I look at the bringing forth of the Son as the antitype to Daniel 2...
“Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. ”
Daniel 2:45 KJV

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The mountain is the Father, the stone the Son. The Son is cut out, brought forth, or begotten, of the Father's being, but up to that time was a part of the mountain, and thus even though now apart, still retains that same nature of the Father. Which makes Him God. The same concept is duplicated in mankind, but with the addition of a mother. Yet are we not recipients of the nature of our parents? It really seems me to see people claiming Jesus as the Son of God, yet somehow God fails in passing on His own divine nature to His offspring. That makes no sense. Surely God does a better job than humans. Our children are at least human. But imperfect. The scriptures say that the Son was a perfect mirror image of the Father. "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". Because I am the express image of My Father.

Yes He did, but not as an independent personality. That began when begotten some time before creation. How can He be Son of of the same antiquity as the one Who gave Him life? And gave Him, the Father did. Jesus said so.
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; ”
John 5:26 KJV

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The life the Father gave was His own self existent life. How then did Jesus die? By becoming human in every respect and laying aside His immortality.

Whoa!
This is why I dislike discussing the Trintiy/Godhead.
So much nuance in your post,,,I wouldn't know where to begin.

Let's make it easy:
THERE IS ONE GOD
IN THIS ONE GOD THERE ARE 3 DISTINCT PERSONS,,,CO-EQUAL
THEY SHARE THE SAME NATURE (DIVINE ESSENCE) AND WILL
THEY ALWAYS EXISTED,,,,CO-ETERNAL

 

[Grailhunter]

For the co-existant folks it would have been good if Yahweh said in the Old Testament …..Except for Yeshua I am the only God and there is no other like me. But he gave no exceptions and in fact said that He created everything.

Now Yahweh AND Yeshua AND the Holy Spirits are full fledged Gods, But Yahweh is unique in that He is the Supreme God and at times the Apostles made that distinction calling Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

Like this….

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2nd Corinthians 13:14

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible. Ephesians 6:23-24

 

[HealthyShape]

For the co-existant folks it would have been good if Yahweh said in the Old Testament …..Except for Yeshua I am the only God and there is no other like me. But he gave no exceptions and in fact said that He created everything.

Now Yahweh AND Yeshua AND the Holy Spirits are full fledged Gods, But Yahweh is unique in that He is the Supreme God and at times the Apostles made that distinction calling Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

Like this….

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2nd Corinthians 13:14

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible. Ephesians 6:23-24

Nobody forces you to equal Yahweh with specifically the person of the Father. So you are creating your own problem.

 

[Grailhunter]

Nobody forces you to equal Yahweh with specifically the person of the Father. So you are creating your own problem.

????

 

[HealthyShape]

????

Yes. No. Maybe.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes. No. Maybe.

LOL

 

[RLT63]

You never answered the question:

Why would God use those symbols in relation to the King of Tyre?

If you cannot discern the context, its meaning is lost on you. Don't copy and false teaching as if its providing you God's wisdom, its not.

Just say whatever it is you’re asserting and stop playing guessing games

 

[RLT63]

Who is the adversary Christ is speaking about in that section. Think about it RLT!

The devil, Satan, just like it says.

 

[RLT63]

How can you write this while being completely unaware of how the Trinitarian dogma developed? If you had even a fraction of understanding of its history, you couldn’t, in good conscience, present such an error.

What makes you an authority on the subject?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Of course I agree.

A start then

It isn't a new revelation.

I never claimed it was

That we should allow the holy Spirit to develop the mind of Christ in those who are His isn't controversial or in doubt.

Good.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Just say whatever it is you’re asserting and stop playing guessing games

I'm not asserting anything.

You seem unable to read the Word of God in proper context, especially regarding God’s lament over the King of Tyre. You need to develop sound interpretive skills to understand how God speaks to His people and avoid being influenced by unbiblical ideas.

If you resist even doing this what point is there in continuing?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Of course I agree. It isn't a new revelation. That we should allow the holy Spirit to develop the mind of Christ in those who are His isn't controversial or in doubt.

Philippians 2:6 “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”

Not a trick question - who others in your Bible knowledge have done this?

 

[RLT63]

I'm not asserting anything.

You seem unable to read the Word of God in proper context, especially regarding God’s lament over the King of Tyre. You need to develop sound interpretive skills to understand how God speaks to His people and avoid being influenced by unbiblical ideas.

If you resist even doing this what point is there in continuing?

You need to quit thinking that you're the undisputed authority on God's word and that your opinion supersedes what Biblical scholars have written for centuries

 

[RLT63]

Philippians 2:6 “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”

Not a trick question - who others in your Bible knowledge have done this?

I don't know what version you're using but that's not what that verse says or means
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 

[marks]

Now Yahweh AND Yeshua AND the Holy Spirits are full fledged Gods, But Yahweh is unique in that He is the Supreme God and at times the Apostles made that distinction calling Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

I didn't know you are polytheistic. Very surprising!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You need to quit thinking that you're the undisputed authority on God's word and that your opinion supersedes what Biblical scholars have written for centuries

Is this the basis of your truth? You have entrusted your salvation in Biblical Scholars who you never knew?

 

[RLT63]

Is this the basis of your truth? You have entrusted your salvation in Biblical Scholars who you never knew?

1st of all, anything that I believe about the devil has nothing to do with my salvation, 2nd why in the world should I trust you, who I have never known either?