Faith alone

[mailmandan]

Hello Sheri, I noticed that you are a new member so I thought that I should say, welcome to CB.com

Also, thank you for posting the passage from James that is so vtial to understand whenever the topic of sola fide is being discussed

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - you know, if I had a favorite verse in James 2:14-26, I think that it would probably be the one below (because of what I believe is the tongue-in-cheek manner that James chose to express himself/make his point plain).

James 2​

18 Someone may well say, “You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” ​

.

Amen! We show our faith by our works. Good works are the evidence of faith but not the origin of it. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen! We show our faith by our works. Good works are the evidence of faith but not the origin of it. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Hi Dan...
No one ever said works are the origin of faith/salvation.

But I just want to say that I believe @SheriE is agreeing that works are a necessary part of our salvation.
But until she clarifies, we won't know for sure.

Have a good day!

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't care for analogies.

That's too bad; they can be very helpful. Again, no offense, but this seems a very closed-minded thing to say...

I believe what the bible states.

So do I... The problem is (at least in certain instances) what someone thinks the Bible states, and/or not fully understanding what the Bible states.

The bible states that God DESIRES ALL MEN to be saved.

It does, and I addressed that above. But it also says that some... not all... He chooses, before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son. And that He created some for noble use and some for common use.

Since all men are NOT saved...there must be a reason.

Absolutely.

These are NOT acceptable:

1. God is not able to to accomplish what He desires.
2. The NT is not trustworthy.

Agreed.

Since the above 2 reasons are not acceptable... there must be another reason.

Agreed.

The other reason is that not all men WISH to be saved. It is their free will desire to deny God.

Agreed. But why do they "desire to deny God?" We can't just say "free will," because there's something in us that drives the will... a central reason why one does what he does regarding God and His great salvation, which is freely offered to all...

Yes. God can be denied:

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Right, and He always will be by those not born again of the Spirit. You make Paul's context out to be something other than what it is... inadvertent as it may be.

You deny we have free will.

I do not. To do so would be quite silly.

The rest of your post contains no scripture...

Not word-for-word quotes, but the references are clear.

so it is your opinion.

So it's not.

Your personal opinion is of no interest.

Suit yourself. Just to put the shoe on the other foot, here, so to speak, I think your personal opinion is of great interest. You know, in conversations like this, I hear, over and over again sometimes, strains of Simon and Garfunkel from 1968... their song "The Boxer"... "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..."

Here is what I understand:

IF you are correct and God is doing all the work in us...
then when we sin either of the following will necessarily be correct:

1. God was unable to keep us from sinning.
2. God causes sin, thus making God a sinner and the cause of evil.

Well... again, no offense intended... but, at least here, you understand... poorly. <smile>

When God is CAUSING our salvation to remain firm and when God is CAUSING us to do His will.... our dual nature has nothing to do with our salvation.
Since it is God that causes everything.

And here, too... God is in control, but God doesn't "cause everything" in the way you are saying that. Or in saying I am saying that. And that feels intentional, that you're foisting this absurdity on me. So be it, I guess... I think there's something much deeper there, actually...
.

You pit Philippians 2:13 against itself.

No, that may be your perception, but no. Perception is not always reality, right? The problem is that... some... don't embrace the full impact of it. And at least sometimes make it into something it's not... with regard to God's "causing everything" and "being responsible for everything we do."

Do we work for God's good pleasure or not??

Well, if God is at work in us, then yes, of course. But does that mean that absolutely everything we do pleases Him? Well, no, of course not; sin is abhorrent to God. But does He then condemn us for it? No. Does He discipline us for it? Yes.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.... When our theology is incorrect.

Well, I agree... <smile> The problem here though is that you are... tangling... what I say, making it into something it's not.

I actually prefer the terms, "eternal security of the believer" or "preservation of the saints" over OSAS because of all the negative connotations that typically get attached to it (license to sin/license for immorality etc..) by folks who strongly oppose OSAS.

Right. Yes, "OSAS" is a clumsy way of putting it, and that's why I pretty much always put it in scare quotes. But still, if we are saved, there is never any need for us to be... saved again... and possibly again and again and again... <chuckles>

Anyone who claims to be a Christian but promotes a license to sin/license for immorality etc.. is an imposter. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Jude 1:4)

Right.

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[PinSeeker]

No one ever said works are the origin of faith/salvation.

I think Dan probably meant something more along the lines of "cause." Works ~ and here I would add (and Dan would probably agree) that the work of belief is included ~ are not the cause of faith/salvation. To a bunch of Jewish unbelievers, He said, in John 10, "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep... My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

But I just want to say that I believe @SheriE is agreeing that works are a necessary part of our salvation.

Yeah, I hope we all are. But again, we are saved ~ have been born again of the Spirit and are in Christ (Ephesians 2; 1 Peter 1) ~ and are being saved ~ have been born again to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (Ephesians 1; 1 Peter 1). So yes, good works are a necessary and essential part of our ultimate salvation. Everyone will be judged according to what he has done, and we see this clearly in Jesus's portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Dan...
No one ever said works are the origin of faith/salvation.

Certain people certainly do seem to imply that. These same folks say that works are an integral part of faith/the very essence of faith and they also interpret "justified by works" in James 2:24 to mean "saved by works" in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6). I hear it all the time.

But I just want to say that I believe @SheriE is agreeing that works are a necessary part of our salvation.
But until she clarifies, we won't know for sure.

Have a good day!

Works are a result of faith but not the source of it. Works are the fruit of salvation but not the cause of it.

You have a good day as well!

 

[mailmandan]

Right. Yes, "OSAS" is a clumsy way of putting it, and that's why I pretty much always put it in scare quotes. But still, if we are saved, there is never any need for us to be... saved again... and possibly again and again and again... <chuckles>

Amen! Well said.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's too bad; they can be very helpful. Again, no offense, but this seems a very closed-minded thing to say...


So do I... The problem is (at least in certain instances) what someone thinks the Bible states, and/or not fully understanding what the Bible states.


It does, and I addressed that above. But it also says that some... not all... He chooses, before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son. And that He created some for noble use and some for common use.


Absolutely.


Agreed.


Agreed.


Agreed. But why do they "desire to deny God?" We can't just say "free will," because there's something in us that drives the will... a central reason why one does what he does regarding God and His great salvation, which is freely offered to all...


Right, and He always will be by those not born again of the Spirit. You make Paul's context out to be something other than what it is... inadvertent as it may be.


I do not. To do so would be quite silly.


Not word-for-word quotes, but the references are clear.


So it's not.


Suit yourself. Just to put the shoe on the other foot, here, so to speak, I think your personal opinion is of great interest. You know, in conversations like this, I hear, over and over again sometimes, strains of Simon and Garfunkel from 1968... their song "The Boxer"... "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..."


Well... again, no offense intended... but, at least here, you understand... poorly. <smile>


And here, too... God is in control, but God doesn't "cause everything" in the way you are saying that. Or in saying I am saying that. And that feels intentional, that you're foisting this absurdity on me. So be it, I guess... I think there's something much deeper there, actually...
.

No, that may be your perception, but no. Perception is not always reality, right? The problem is that... some... don't embrace the full impact of it. And at least sometimes make it into something it's not... with regard to God's "causing everything" and "being responsible for everything we do."


Well, if God is at work in us, then yes, of course. But does that mean that absolutely everything we do pleases Him? Well, no, of course not; sin is abhorrent to God. But does He then condemn us for it? No. Does He discipline us for it? Yes.


Well, I agree... <smile> The problem here though is that you are... tangling... what I say, making it into something it's not.


Right. Yes, "OSAS" is a clumsy way of putting it, and that's why I pretty much always put it in scare quotes. But still, if we are saved, there is never any need for us to be... saved again... and possibly again and again and again... <chuckles>


Right.

Grace and peace to you both.

I don't see any scripture PinSeeker.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't see any scripture PinSeeker.

LOL. Maybe your eyes are closed... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Dan probably meant something more along the lines of "cause." Works ~ and here I would add (and Dan would probably agree) that the work of belief is included ~ are not the cause of faith/salvation. To a bunch of Jewish unbelievers, He said, in John 10, "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep... My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."


Yeah, I hope we all are. But again, we are saved ~ have been born again of the Spirit and are in Christ (Ephesians 2; 1 Peter 1) ~ and are being saved ~ have been born again to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (Ephesians 1; 1 Peter 1). So yes, good works are a necessary and essential part of our ultimate salvation. Everyone will be judged according to what he has done, and we see this clearly in Jesus's portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

Grace and peace to all.

If we are saved by what we have done...
then THIS is the cause of our salvation.


Romans 2:5-6 Paul
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


2 Corinthians 5:10 Paul
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


John 5:28-29 Jesus
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Matthew 16:27 Jesus
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

 

[shepherdsword]

Works do validate faith, but works are not the very essence of faith. Scripture draws a line between faith and works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. (Matthew 7:17-20; 13:23; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8-10) Faith produces works. When James says, “faith without works is dead,” he is not redefining faith. He is describing the evidence of living faith. Works are not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. Otherwise, grace is no longer grace. (Romans 5:1-2; 11:6)

An orange produces oranges....guess what...oranges are therefor part of the tree. James clears up your misunderstanding very well,

Jas 2:20-25
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

How can the above referenced works justify us? Because they are a part of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

An orange produces oranges....guess what...oranges are therefor part of the tree. James clears up your misunderstanding very well,

Jas 2:20-25
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

How can the above referenced works justify us? Because they are a part of faith.

An orange tree produces oranges just as faith produces fruit/works. An orange tree does not produce oranges in order to become a living tree, but because it's a living tree and it's the same with faith and works. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit.

In regard to "faith without works is dead" in James 2:20, James does not mean that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen! We show our faith by our works. Good works are the evidence of faith but not the origin of it. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

they who feed the poor and do many good acts
and yet has no faith IN JESUS
is a like a blind man that steps us and says aloud
FOLLOW ME , I SHALL LEAD THEE to the promised land . And those who follow are every bit as blind as HE .
NO FAITH IN JESUS IS NO FAITH IN GOD
and if our trust and our faith BE NOT IN GOD
but in our selves , OH DEAR there is no deliverance from death and the end is but the second death .
AND for those of us whose faith IS IN CHRIST JESUS
HE SURE DO WORK through us what is pleasing to GOD , such lovely good works
produced by HIS SPIRIT .
INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST let no man woman or child ever f orget that either . ITS JESUS preaching TIME
and I mean ONLY JESUS PREACHING TIME , HIS GOSPEL , not mans lovespells .
HIS words , not mens t wisted words .
ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME in the building . cause muhammed , b udda and all other religoins
WILL n ot save you . the dead remain dead and they will face ONLY the second death .
ITS THAT SERIOUS MAIL MAN D AN . THAT WE POINT ONLY to JESUS and offer up no other false hope scenario to this people .

 

[shepherdsword]

An orange tree produces oranges just as faith produces fruit/works. An orange tree does not produce oranges in order to become a living tree, but because it's a living tree and it's the same with faith and works. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit.

In regard to "faith without works is dead" in James 2:20, James does not mean that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Stop wresting scriptures that you really don't understand. I know it you have to in order to justify the OSAS heresy but anyone can see your exegesis is unsound. James said this:
Jas 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

In other words... if you don't have works your faith is a dead and lifeless thing that cannot save.

There is no way to wiggle out of this:

Jas 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

You see how his words completed his faith? What is the actual completion or end of our faith? One that is not possible without works?

1 Pe 1:8-9 receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.

Sorry Dan that OSAS wish list is not in the scriptures.

 

[mailmandan]

they who feed the poor and do many good acts
and yet has no faith IN JESUS
is a like a blind man that steps us and says aloud
FOLLOW ME , I SHALL LEAD THEE to the promised land . And those who follow are every bit as blind as HE .
NO FAITH IN JESUS IS NO FAITH IN GOD
and if our trust and our faith BE NOT IN GOD
but in our selves , OH DEAR there is no deliverance from death and the end is but the second death .
AND for those of us whose faith IS IN CHRIST JESUS
HE SURE DO WORK through us what is pleasing to GOD , such lovely good works
produced by HIS SPIRIT .
INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST let no man woman or child ever f orget that either . ITS JESUS preaching TIME
and I mean ONLY JESUS PREACHING TIME , HIS GOSPEL , not mans lovespells .
HIS words , not mens t wisted words .
ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME in the building . cause muhammed , b udda and all other religoins
WILL n ot save you . the dead remain dead and they will face ONLY the second death .
ITS THAT SERIOUS MAIL MAN D AN . THAT WE POINT ONLY to JESUS and offer up no other false hope scenario to this people .

There certainly are pseudo Christians who are (religious, but not right with God) and mimic good behavior but God infallibly knows their hearts. He will separate the sheep from the goats.

 

[amigo de christo]

An orange tree produces oranges just as faith produces fruit/works. An orange tree does not produce oranges in order to become a living tree, but because it's a living tree and it's the same with faith and works. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit.

In regard to "faith without works is dead" in James 2:20, James does not mean that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

He who believes that his deeds can save him
is like a man who believes he can get apples from oranges . It just aint gonna happen .
HERE is who can save themselves , apart FROM FAITH in GOD in CHRIST .
LORD who then can be saved , with men THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE . Did i hear that , did we hear that right .
YES WE DID DAN . WITH MAN ITS IMPOSSIBLE .
But NOT WITH GOD . AND GOD has chosen HOW to save .
By the preaching of the gopsel to save those who .............................BELEIVE .
did that say BELEIV E . YES IT DID DAN . I will not watch or hear another word or action of man
WHO dares to even speak a false hope to this people . EITHER we preach JESUS and the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE
or we may as well get in line with all who beleived not . FOR the punishemnt will be the same .
TO THE ONE who preached the lie to the one who bought the lie . WE cannot be partakers of a lie dan .
WE cannot be co helpers to a LIE dan . In tefaith is of anti christ , i guarantee it . i seen what them cloaked
false wool covering folks told them false relgoins . AND IT WAS OF ANTI CHRIST fat lie .
AND THIS SH EEP gonna expose every last one of them . JESUS TIME . HE WILL NOT BE DENIED .

 

[mailmandan]

Stop wresting scriptures that you really don't understand. I know it you have to in order to justify the OSAS heresy but anyone can see your exegesis is unsound. James said this:
Jas 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

In other words... if you don't have works your faith is a dead and lifeless thing that cannot save.

There is no way to wiggle out of this:

Jas 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

You see how his words completed his faith? What is the actual completion or end of our faith? One that is not possible without works?

1 Pe 1:8-9 receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.

Sorry Dan that OSAS wish list is not in the scriptures.

I did not even bring up OSAS. I was simply harmonizing scripture with scripture in post #111 before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Do you believe that works are the source of life in faith and that we are saved by both faith and works in contradiction to Paul? (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) OSAS is only heresy when one attaches a license to sin/license for immortality to it. Are you judging and condemning ALL believers in the OSAS camp?

 

[shepherdsword]

they who feed the poor and do many good acts
and yet has no faith IN JESUS
is a like a blind man that steps us and says aloud
FOLLOW ME , I SHALL LEAD THEE to the promised land . And those who follow are every bit as blind as HE .
NO FAITH IN JESUS IS NO FAITH IN GOD
and if our trust and our faith BE NOT IN GOD
but in our selves , OH DEAR there is no deliverance from death and the end is but the second death .
AND for those of us whose faith IS IN CHRIST JESUS
HE SURE DO WORK through us what is pleasing to GOD , such lovely good works
produced by HIS SPIRIT .
INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST let no man woman or child ever f orget that either . ITS JESUS preaching TIME
and I mean ONLY JESUS PREACHING TIME , HIS GOSPEL , not mans lovespells .
HIS words , not mens t wisted words .
ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME in the building . cause muhammed , b udda and all other religoins
WILL n ot save you . the dead remain dead and they will face ONLY the second death .
ITS THAT SERIOUS MAIL MAN D AN . THAT WE POINT ONLY to JESUS and offer up no other false hope scenario to this people .

and those who claim they have faith but do nothing will not inherit salvation. Their faith is a dead lifeless thing that cannot save.

I did not even bring up OSAS. I was simply harmonizing scripture with scripture in post #111 before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Do you believe that works are the source of life in faith and that we are saved by both faith and works in contradiction to Paul? (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6;

I believe that faith has built in works, finished before the foundation of the world that we walk in to complete. You keep saying "faith and "works" because you are looking at it from greek mindset and see them seperate. To the hebrew, faith was an action word and not some mental concept. It contained works

Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) OSAS is only heresy when one attaches a license to sin/license for immortality to it. Are you judging and condemning ALL believers in the OSAS camp?

I am not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. They will demonstrate their faith by their works....just as James states. Do you believe that James was wrong when he clearly states that faith without works is dead? That faith is not complete without works? Cab a dead faith save the soul?

 

[GodsGrace]

and those who claim they have faith but do nothing will not inherit salvation. Their faith is a dead lifeless thing that cannot save.

I believe that faith has built in works, finished before the foundation of the world that we walk in to complete. You keep saying "faith and "works" because you are looking at it from greek mindset and see them seperate. To the hebrew, faith was an action word and not some mental concept. It contained works

I am not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. They will demonstrate their faith by their works....just as James states. Do you believe that James was wrong when he clearly states that faith without works is dead? That faith is not complete without works? Cab a dead faith save the soul?

Great point.
Faith is an action word.
and
Believe is an action word.

To believe is to obey in the Koine Greek language.
To obey is to take action.

And Jesus said we are to ACT on His words.
Matthew 7:24 and Matthew 7:26
The wise man ACTS on Jesus' words.
The foolish man does NOT ACT on Jesus' words.

The other poster and I have been through this a myriad of times and I tire of it right now.
Another great scripture is:

John 15:1-2a
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit,


Every branch IN JESUS (a saved person) that does not bear fruit is taken away.
What could be more clear?
But, alas, this also is twisted to deny its meaning.

 

[PinSeeker]

If we are saved by what we have done...
then THIS is the cause of our salvation.

Hmmm... well in a sense ~ the one in which we are now being saved ~ that's correct. But in the sense that we have been saved not so much... and if you need some Scriptural references here, I'll just point out two that I've pointed out several times before (though you say I haven't):

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14)​

​

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:1-10)​

​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 13-5)​

Nothing in any of those passages about anything we did before God saved us, much less somehow deserved or merited it (quite the opposite of that...).

So let me ask it this way: Are we born again of the Spirit because of what we have done? <smile>

Grace and peace to you?

 

[mailmandan]

and those who claim they have faith but do nothing will not inherit salvation. Their faith is a dead lifeless thing that cannot save.

I believe that faith has built in works, finished before the foundation of the world that we walk in to complete. You keep saying "faith and "works" because you are looking at it from greek mindset and see them seperate. To the hebrew, faith was an action word and not some mental concept. It contained works

I am not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. They will demonstrate their faith by their works....just as James states. Do you believe that James was wrong when he clearly states that faith without works is dead? That faith is not complete without works? Cab a dead faith save the soul?

I already explained what I believe James is teaching in post number #111 but apparently you and I interpret James 2:14-26 differently. I believe that context is key.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James 2:14-26 doesn’t contradict salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) James exposes dead faith, without transformation. The faith that saves always produces fruit, but the fruit is not the cause of salvation. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works yet genuine faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. I believe that man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. I'm glad to hear you say that you are not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. OSAS becomes problematic when folks attach a license to sin/license for immortality to it just like NOSAS becomes problematic when folks attach works-righteousness to it.