No future hope for Israel in the Bible

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

kdx

Member
Nov 12, 2025
86
68
18
Frankfurt
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
Hello,

I want to present the most strong and undeniable argument that makes it absolutely impossible for any prophecy to take place regarding “Israel” in the Bible. I know that there were many fine Christians in history who held such a doctrine, even today all those who are called dispensationalists. But now let me give you the argument. It is this:

Israel, as defined by the Bible (and this is the most important thing of all), doesn’t exist anymore.

Israel, the nation Israel we know about in the Old and New Testament, was created by God making a covenant with the people who came out of Egypt at Mount Sinai. This was the old covenant. This covenant doesn’t exist anymore, it is replaced by the new covenant. Therefore this Israel doesn’t exist anymore. Therefore, there are no prophecies left regarding this Israel.

Prove me wrong, if you can.

Kind regards and God bless.
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,515
315
83
72
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello,

I want to present the most strong and undeniable argument that makes it absolutely impossible for any prophecy to take place regarding “Israel” in the Bible. I know that there were many fine Christians in history who held such a doctrine, even today all those who are called dispensationalists. But now let me give you the argument. It is this:

Israel, as defined by the Bible (and this is the most important thing of all), doesn’t exist anymore.

Israel, the nation Israel we know about in the Old and New Testament, was created by God making a covenant with the people who came out of Egypt at Mount Sinai. This was the old covenant. This covenant doesn’t exist anymore, it is replaced by the new covenant. Therefore this Israel doesn’t exist anymore. Therefore, there is no prophecies left regarding this Israel.

Prove me wrong, if you can.

Kind regards and God bless.
Thanks for the interesting topic. Before I might offer some thoughts on this can you please tell me the difference between the old and the new covenant.? That might help me with my respoinses and I can try and concentrate on the "Israel" comment. Thanks. (you really should get my commentary - did I mention it is free :crossword:)
 

kdx

Member
Nov 12, 2025
86
68
18
Frankfurt
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
you really should get my commentary - did I mention it is free

I am not so sure why I should be interested in a commentary on Daniel from someone I have never known, who has never heard of the basic preterist understanding of the Olivet discourse, and who doesn’t know the difference between the old and new covenant. Doesn’t make any sense to me.

Oh, Lord. Another one.

What do you mean?
 

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,515
315
83
72
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am not so sure why I should be interested in a commentary on Daniel from someone I have never known, who has never heard of the basic preterist understanding of the Olivet discourse, and who doesn’t know the difference between the old and new covenant. Doesn’t make any sense to me.



What do you mean?
Okay, that went south rather quickly! Best wishes.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
38,988
25,096
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Prove me wrong, if you can.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I won't prove you wrong, the solar system will prove you wrong. The sun shone today, the moon shone last night, therefore, the seed of Israel, that is, the descendants of Jacob, are still a nation before God.

The heaven and earth prove you wrong, unless you've measured the heavens, and been to the heart of the earth.

Much love!
 

kdx

Member
Nov 12, 2025
86
68
18
Frankfurt
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
I won't prove you wrong, the solar system will prove you wrong. The sun shone today, the moon shone last night, therefore, the seed of Israel, that is, the descendants of Jacob, are still a nation before God.

Sure they are.

Seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Gal 3:29)

A nation before God:
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. (1. Pet 2:9)
 

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2023
2,707
951
113
56
Somewhere west of Mississippi River
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I won't prove you wrong, the solar system will prove you wrong. The sun shone today, the moon shone last night, therefore, the seed of Israel, that is, the descendants of Jacob, are still a nation before God.

The heaven and earth prove you wrong, unless you've measured the heavens, and been to the heart of the earth.

Much love!

Once again, you lacks wisdom.

I fear you are injecting a meaning into this passage that God never intended. Obviously, God is not saying the physical nation of Israel would never cease to be a nation because the physical nation of Israel clearly "has" ceased to be a nation physically, and until very recently. The fact is, the State of Israel was not again reestablished as a nation until May 14, 1948. God is not a man that He can lie. Therefore, it's not that God's Word was wrong; it's that man, being dull of hearing or discernment, does not understand God's Word correctly. It is absolutely true that the seed of Israel shall NEVER cease from being a nation before God. But as Phoenix testified to God's word:

Romans 9:5-6
  • "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
  • Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
I echo question to you, "Have you not been reading?"

Because God's Word is crystal clear on the matter. He is not a Jew who is one outwardly (Israel of the flesh), but He is a Jew who is one inwardly (Israel in the Spirit). Look, we don't deny those Scriptures that you quoted. We affirm them with great gratitude to our God, and with great joy we affirm that Christ, as the seed, shall never cease from being a nation before God forever. We Say "Hallelujah that the seed of Israel shall not cease from being a nation before God forever." That's the whole basis of our hope, faith, and the seal of our eternal security. Because that Seed is Christ Israel! And all who are in Him are that Holy Nation that will never fall. Not a political people or nation in the Middle East as you think, but a Spiritual people or Holy Nation In Christ, Israel. The ONLY Place where God's Chosen people will ever find peace and safety. Nothing to do with a piece of land! Again, we don't stumble at the word; we affirm it is faithful and true. It can never be made of non-effect:

Galatians 3:16-17

  • "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
  • And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
THIS, Mark, "IS" the seed of Israel that Jehovah God said shall NEVER cease from being a nation before Him forever. God is NOT talking about nation Israel but the BODY of the CHOSEN people of promise from the Old Testament and the New Testament. This is the foundation of the peculiar, special people and HOLY NATION of Israel. This is the Holy Nation Jehovah Spoke of again and again in the promise. Not the alleged promise of a plot of dirt in the Middle East that can't be taken away, but the true promised land of a spiritual eternal home, whose builder and maker is God.

Much Wisdom, Mark!
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee and rwb

Reggie Belafonte

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2018
8,132
4,016
113
65
Brisbane
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Hello,

I want to present the most strong and undeniable argument that makes it absolutely impossible for any prophecy to take place regarding “Israel” in the Bible. I know that there were many fine Christians in history who held such a doctrine, even today all those who are called dispensationalists. But now let me give you the argument. It is this:

Israel, as defined by the Bible (and this is the most important thing of all), doesn’t exist anymore.

Israel, the nation Israel we know about in the Old and New Testament, was created by God making a covenant with the people who came out of Egypt at Mount Sinai. This was the old covenant. This covenant doesn’t exist anymore, it is replaced by the new covenant. Therefore this Israel doesn’t exist anymore. Therefore, there are no prophecies left regarding this Israel.

Prove me wrong, if you can.

Kind regards and God bless.
Israel is defined in a person ! as in Jacob in the OT ! and Nathaniel in the NT by Jesus in fact ! for they are the Example for all in fact !

Israel is the People of God ! now worthy of Christ Jesus in fact now from the NT on.
That means the ones who are Saved ! such a one need not bother with so called Lands or so called Prophecies or dribble on with Dispensationalist madness, because such as that has to do with Carnal Man. That is just only a lacking of Grace due to a Religious nonsense ! like a dog that chasses it's tail.

I am not rejecting the Prophecies but the issue is that carnal religious Man only seeks to look for such, as if that is the deal ? the proof ? For they seek to such ends as proof ? as any carnal pig would in fact ! For they do not have eyes to see past carnal nonsense !

My mates who are on that Dispensationalist Trip, say to me, Look at the proof of what they see or claim to be a workings of God ?
But I seriously say that any stupid idiot carnal man can see just what they see in fact ! and such is not a working of God but clearly that of Mans works, you ignorant fools ! because see all of the atheist agree with with them regarding such works in fact !

Fact is that an Atheist can not see the workings of God in fact ! for they reject all such in fact, or take such things the wrong way ! for they are clearly Lost in fact !

Just as with any con-artist as the Devil is in fact full of deceptions ans delusions, that's the Card that is played.

Prophecies are in regard realitys that will fall into place due to disregard of reality.
Disregard Christ Jesus and you all will Fail badly, That's clear ! but as to when and totaly how does not truly matter as to why it will be so.
 

kdx

Member
Nov 12, 2025
86
68
18
Frankfurt
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
Israel is defined in a person !

That’s true, but in all fairness, it’s also, and more importantly, defined as a nation, both in the Old and New Testament. It’s the nation of God. Israel is His people. But most importantly, you got to define as to who exactly this Israel is.
 

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2023
2,707
951
113
56
Somewhere west of Mississippi River
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Absolutely nothing, other than choosing the same name for itself, and having its residence in approximately the same area.

Ahem...

The modern nation of Israel was founded in 1948 as a homeland for the Jewish people. The Jewish people today are indeed descendants (biologically, culturally, or by conversion) of the ancient Israelities of the Old Testament. So in terms of heritage, language (Hebrew), tradition, and identity... the modern state "IS" connected to ancient Old Testament Israel. HOWEVER, the modern nation of Israel is not "COVENANTALLY," part of God's kingdom today.

For example, the dispensational view is that the modern State of Israel is part of God's prophetic plan so they believe that God's divine covenant with ethnic Israel "continues," which is why they come up with false end-time prophecies for national Israel.

My position is the ancient covenant was fulfilled in Christ and the physical nation of Israel no longer represented the Kingdom of God because God's "Israel" is now ALL BELIEVERS (Jews and Gentiles) in Jesus Christ that make up as spiritually "holy nation," since the Cross. Therefore, the modern political state is NOT a theological fulfillment.
 

kdx

Member
Nov 12, 2025
86
68
18
Frankfurt
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
Therefore, the modern political state is NOT a theological fulfillment.

True, but moreover, it cannot be involved in any fulfillment concerning „Israel“, because Israel, as defined in the Bible, was a nation based on a covenant with God, the Old Covenant. And you yourself say, that it is not

COVENANTALLY

connected with God. But this covenant is exactly what created and defined the nation state of Israel in the first place. No covenant, no nation state. That’s the whole point of this thread, by the way. This Israel doesn’t exist anymore, it is gone forever, never to return again.

I mean, think about it. Imagine there is no modern nation state of Israel today, Jews dispersed, and for whatever reason we both have the power and decide to create a modern state right in that area, and call it Israel. Does this somehow bring into existence the nation of Israel we read about in the Bible? Because we both, you and me, decide to call it Israel, and place that state in this area? This nation is based completely upon our authority, not Gods. It has nothing to do with the God of the Bible. It cannot. It’s not possible. But this is basically what is being suggested. I mean, after all, it’s called Israel, it’s placed where Israel has been, there are Jews living there, they even speak Hebrew. Must be prophecy, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

CTK

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2024
1,515
315
83
72
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For what it is worth... Here is a cut / paste from my commentary on Revelation (still in progress). Below is a partial narratvie for verses 7:4-8 which provides the importance of Israel at the end times. Without God providing their unique and corporate like "Damascus like experience" that was scene at the time of Christ with His servant Paul, the Messiah could not return. One cannot overestimate the importance of His chosen people at the time of the end.


The sealing of God’s servants in Revelation 7:4-8 strongly parallels the final plague in Exodus and finds echoes in other Old Testament passages. These connections highlight God’s consistent pattern of mercy and protection for His faithful.

In the final plague of Exodus, God commanded the Israelites to mark their doorposts with the blood of a lamb (Exodus 12:7, 13). This mark symbolized their allegiance to God and provided protection against the destroying angel. Similarly, the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation identifies and safeguards God’s servants from the judgments to come. Both instances underscore God’s power to shield His people amid widespread calamity—whether it is the Israelites’ deliverance from Egypt or the faithful’s ultimate redemption in Revelation.

This theme also appears in Ezekiel’s vision of the mark (Ezekiel 9:3-6), where a man clothed in linen marks the foreheads of those grieving over Jerusalem’s sins. Those marked are spared from destruction, much like the servants sealed in Revelation 7. In these scenes, the mark represents divine protection and sets the faithful apart from those subject to judgment. Other Old Testament references further enrich this symbolism. Deuteronomy 6:8 instructs God’s people to bind His words as a sign on their hands and foreheads, symbolizing devotion and obedience—similar to being sealed as God’s own. Malachi 3:17-18 promises God’s protection for those who fear Him, calling them His "jewels." Likewise, in Isaiah 26:20-21, God tells His people to "enter your chambers" and hide until His wrath has passed, a vivid parallel to the sealing in Revelation, where judgment is delayed until the faithful are identified and protected. These connections between Revelation 7 and the Old Testament emphasize God’s unchanging character. The seal, like the blood on the doorposts or the mark in Ezekiel, signifies God’s ownership, care, and mercy for His people.

The 144,000 in Revelation as God’s chosen witnesses at the end of time is both compelling and meaningful. These individuals represent God’s people who, like Paul, will be given their own "Damascus experience.” Romans 11:25-26 speaks of a time when the partial hardening of Israel will end, allowing them to recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This aligns with Zechariah 12:10, where the people of Israel will mourn deeply as they realize they have pierced the One who came to save them. At this pivotal moment, God’s people will have the blindness lifted from their eyes and will embrace Jesus, fulfilling their role in His redemptive plan.

These 144,000 will then go out into the world, preaching the Good News with fervor and urgency, much like Paul did in the first century. Their mission will be a final call to humanity to turn to God before the return of Christ. This mission is tied to the prophetic timeline of Daniel’s 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:24-27). The 3.5 years of ministry by the 144,000 will complete the final portion of the 490 years decreed for God’s people. The timeline, which began in 457 BC, was interrupted at the cross, with 486.5 years fulfilled. The remaining 3.5 years must be completed, and can only be completed by His people. At the conclusion of these final 3.5 years, the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle will be completed – then the Messiah.

The 144,000, sealed as God’s faithful witnesses, will not only go out into the world to preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus but will also expose the profound departure of the church and its teachings from the true Word of God. Over the past 1500 years, the little horn, symbolizing the papacy, has disseminated doctrines and practices that diverge from biblical truth. These witnesses will serve as a powerful testimony, shining a light on these deviations and calling people back to the purity of God’s Word. Their mission will be one of both proclamation and restoration, revealing God’s truth and preparing the world for the Messiah’s return. This understanding not only highlights God’s faithfulness to His covenant but also underscores the unity of His plan throughout history. The restoration of His chosen people and their role in completing the unfulfilled years of prophecy showcase God’s justice, mercy, and sovereignty. It serves as a reminder that God’s timing is perfect and His promises are sure.
 

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2023
1,976
333
83
49
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I won't prove you wrong, the solar system will prove you wrong. The sun shone today, the moon shone last night, therefore, the seed of Israel, that is, the descendants of Jacob, are still a nation before God.
The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars are given in Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

In the new heaven new earth the Genesis 1:14 ordinances are not being obeyed by the sun and moon, as seen in Isaiah 60:20.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Concluding that Israel is still currently a nation before God doesn’t really help you, because at some point Israel ceases to be a nation forever. That means there can’t be any eternal promises made to the nation of Israel because it ceases once new heaven new earth come.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
5,490
439
83
77
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Hello,

I want to present the most strong and undeniable argument that makes it absolutely impossible for any prophecy to take place regarding “Israel” in the Bible.
In Ezekiel 38-39, the Gog/Magog nations will attack Israel in the latter years, latter days (Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16).

Gog's army (five sixths of it) will be destroyed on the mountains of Israel. Ezekiel 39:4. "Israel" is in the text.

Following that attack, there are 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9. Those 7 years are the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Israel is main nation in end times bible prophecy. The two witnesses in Revelation 11 will testify in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.
 
Last edited:

soberxp

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2025
2,631
907
113
43
Xi'an
m.youtube.com
Faith
Christian
Country
China
Gender
Male
In Ezekiel 38-39, the Gog/Magog nations will attack Israel in the latter years, latter days (Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16).

Gog's army will be destroyed on the mountains of Israel. Ezekiel 39:4. "Israel" is in the text.

Following that attack, there are 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9. Those 7 years are the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Israel is main nation in end times bible prophecy. The two witnesses in Revelation 11 will testify in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.
New Jerusalem not on the earth.
Jesus Christ took it away from earth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.