Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

1. The Bible is God's Word - Agree
2. God is Three in One - Disagree
3. Jesus is Fully God - Disagree
4. We are saved by faith - Agree
5. There is life after death - Agree.
Possibly I pass the test 3 out of 5. I also disagree with some aspects of his elaboration of each item.

Kind regards
Trevor

I didn't post it because I agree with him or follow him.
Only because I've been writing the tenets (a few times) and receive no response.
Thought a video would.

So you disagree with 2 out of 5 tenets that are necessary to believe in order to be DEFINED as Christian.

So why do you consider yourself to be Christian??
You could call yourself a Jesus follower...
but Christian?
The term has been defined...
why do we have the right to change it??

Calling oneself Christian without believing that Jesus is God...
is like stateing you're married but do not have a wife.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yahweh Almighty....God the Father....God Supreme....The Creator God.
Yeshua a full-fledged God....The Son of Yahweh....The Messiah God....The Savior God.
Holy Spirit a full-fledged God....The Helper....The Guide....The Teacher....The Communicator....The Nurturer....The Comforter....
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, John 15;26
This verse is talking about the Holy Spirit being sent by Yeshua from Yahweh who will testify of Yeshua....Referring to 3 Gods.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yahweh Almighty....God the Father....God Supreme....The Creator God.
Yeshua a full-fledged God....The Son of Yahweh....The Messiah God....The Savior God.
Holy Spirit a full-fledged God....The Helper....The Guide....The Teacher....The Communicator....The Nurturer....The Comforter....
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, John 15;26
This verse is talking about the Holy Spirit being sent by Yeshua from Yahweh who will testify of Yeshua....Referring to 3 Gods.

Can we say that they are all three Gods but in ONE GODHEAD?

 

[Grailhunter]

Can we say that they are all three Gods but in ONE GODHEAD?

Bingo!!!

 

[David Lamb]

Yahweh Almighty....God the Father....God Supreme....The Creator God.
Yeshua a full-fledged God....The Son of Yahweh....The Messiah God....The Savior God.
Holy Spirit a full-fledged God....The Helper....The Guide....The Teacher....The Communicator....The Nurturer....The Comforter....
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, John 15;26
This verse is talking about the Holy Spirit being sent by Yeshua from Yahweh who will testify of Yeshua....Referring to 3 Gods.

Where does the bible say that there are three Gods? John's gospel opens with that well-known passage about "the Word", which John explains became flesh, and dwelt among them, so the Word is Jesus Christ. That passages says that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God, not that the Word was a separate God. Jesus Himself said, "I and My Father are one."

 

[GodsGrace]

Bingo!!!

OK!!!!!


NOW.....
can we name it the Trinity?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does the bible say that there are three Gods? John's gospel opens with that well-known passage about "the Word", which John explains became flesh, and dwelt among them, so the Word is Jesus Christ. That passages says that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God, not that the Word was a separate God. Jesus Himself said, "I and My Father are one."

I agree with you 100%.
I think that the other member might just be using different wording...
although we shouldn't be doing that either.
Technically...there are 3 Gods.....
except we can't declare there are 3 Gods because there is only ONE God.
Hence the Trinity.
Which some will not accept for whatever reason.

Do you believe a person could IDENTIFY as Christian and not believe in the Trinity?

 

[David Lamb]

I agree with you 100%.
I think that the other member might just be using different wording...
although we shouldn't be doing that either.
Technically...there are 3 Gods.....
except we can't declare there are 3 Gods because there is only ONE God.
Hence the Trinity.
Which some will not accept for whatever reason.

Do you believe a person could IDENTIFY as Christian and not believe in the Trinity?

Whether technically or any other way, there is only one God, consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A person who denies the deity of Christ or the Holy Spirit could identify themselves as a Christian, but God Himself is the only one Who can truly and definitely know whether somebody is a Christian.. I don't think that being able to understand the Trinity, or even using the word "Trinity" is a prerequisite for being saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whether technically or any other way, there is only one God, consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A person who denies the deity of Christ or the Holy Spirit could identify themselves as a Christian, but God Himself is the only one Who can truly and definitely know whether somebody is a Christian.. I don't think that being able to understand the Trinity, or even using the word "Trinity" is a prerequisite for being saved.

Not discussing salvation here.

The discussion is about identity.
What identifies a Christian.

Does anything?
Can a person believe whatever they deem appropriate and still be IDENTIFIED as Christian?

If so, doesn't Christianity lose all meaning?
If I say I'm a Christian shouldn't the other person know what I believe?

 

[Grailhunter]

Where does the bible say that there are three Gods? John's gospel opens with that well-known passage about "the Word", which John explains became flesh, and dwelt among them, so the Word is Jesus Christ. That passages says that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God, not that the Word was a separate God. Jesus Himself said, "I and My Father are one."

The scriptures do not count them, they list them
Yahweh Almighty....God the Father....God Supreme....The Creator God.
Yeshua a full-fledged God....The Son of Yahweh....The Messiah God....The Savior God.
Holy Spirit a full-fledged God....The Helper....The Guide....The Teacher....The Communicator....The Nurturer....The Comforter....

When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, John 15;26
This verse is talking about the Holy Spirit being sent by Yeshua from Yahweh who will testify of Yeshua....Referring to 3 Gods.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son
50 My Father and My Father in Heaven verses
I do not do My will but the will of the Father
Yeshua ascends to the Father
Yeshua's God is Yahweh
Apostles refer to the Father as God and Yeshua as Lord
In the Old Testament......
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:9
Posts 156 - 162

 

[David Lamb]

Not discussing salvation here.

The discussion is about identity.
What identifies a Christian.

Does anything?
Can a person believe whatever they deem appropriate and still be IDENTIFIED as Christian?

If so, doesn't Christianity lose all meaning?
If I say I'm a Christian shouldn't the other person know what I believe?

I think that the way many people use the term "Christian" these days, it has lost much of its meaning. We sometimes hear on news broadcasts reference to the "Christian militia", or a political party known as the "Christian Democrats", for instance, but there seems little connection between such organisations and Jesus Christ. Then there are people who think they are Christians for no other reason than that their parents were Christians. It is a pity, but I find myself having to explain that when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I am a follower of, and a believer in, Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Thanks for your thought-provoking post.

 

[Grailhunter]

COK!!!!!


NOW.....
can we name it the Trinity?

I never deny the Trinity.....The term was coined early on but it did not include the Catholic formula for it.
Trinity...Tri-unity....not triune.
But to keep things in perspective.....The Catholic Church was a horror.....but the modern Catholic Church in your community is good.....But I still would not give you 2 cents for the Vatican.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that the way many people use the term "Christian" these days, it has lost much of its meaning. We sometimes hear on news broadcasts reference to the "Christian militia", or a political party known as the "Christian Democrats", for instance, but there seems little connection between such organisations and Jesus Christ. Then there are people who think they are Christians for no other reason than that their parents were Christians. It is a pity, but I find myself having to explain that when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I am a follower of, and a believer in, Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Thanks for your thought-provoking post.

I agree 100%.
And I know I cannot single-handedly bring back the meaning of the word Christian.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never deny the Trinity.....The term was coined early on but it did not include the Catholic formula for it.
Trinity...Tri-unity....not triune.
But to keep things in perspective.....The Catholic Church was a horror.....but the modern Catholic Church in your community is good.....But I still would not give you 2 cents for the Vatican.

I don't know if the CC in my community is good.
I have plenty of complaints.
I'm not even Catholic - I hope you remember this.
Too much doctrine I can't agree with...although I have been told by a new priest that
I could not accept all doctrine but still be Catholic !!


That was rather horrifying to hear!

And yes, the CC was great and it was a horror...
The reformation was great but it was a horror...

Wherever men gather...
there is some horror.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think that the way many people use the term "Christian" these days, it has lost much of its meaning. We sometimes hear on news broadcasts reference to the "Christian militia", or a political party known as the "Christian Democrats", for instance, but there seems little connection between such organisations and Jesus Christ. Then there are people who think they are Christians for no other reason than that their parents were Christians. It is a pity, but I find myself having to explain that when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I am a follower of, and a believer in, Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Thanks for your thought-provoking post.

Christians should know the name of the Son of Yahweh
No J's in the scriptures
No one knows where the word Jesus came from.
Words mean things

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree 100%.
And I know I cannot single-handedly bring back the meaning of the word Christian.

The early Christians did not have Bibles but yet they were saved.
Christ means Messiah
Faith in Yeshua
The Apostles Creed was at one time a statement of faith before baptism.

Old Roman Creed....originates in the 2nd century​

I believe in God the Father almighty;
and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord,
Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried,
on the third day rose again from the dead,
ascended to heaven,
sits at the right hand of the Father,
whence He will come to judge the living and the dead,
and in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Church,
the remission of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh
the life everlasting.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't know if the CC in my community is good.
I have plenty of complaints.
I'm not even Catholic - I hope you remember this.
Too much doctrine I can't agree with...although I have been told by a new priest that
I could not accept all doctrine but still be Catholic !!


That was rather horrifying to hear!

And yes, the CC was great and it was a horror...
The reformation was great but it was a horror...

Wherever men gather...
there is some horror.

LOL Wherever men gather there is some horror....Yeap we cannot blame the women.
I remember that you are not Catholic.
I worship with Catholics and Protestants.
The Protestants are a virtual smorgasbord of beliefs with over 30,000 denominations.
The early services were built around the Bread and Wine ritual. And they risked their lives to go to those services. Now a days you need a cattle prod to get those that say they are Christians to go to church. Maybe that is part of being a Christian?
I think it is important to love Christians.
People would like to think that early Church was of one faith.....Not true....You had Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians and they did not believe the same things or practice Christianity the same.
It is easier to say what is not a Christian than what is.

 

[GodsGrace]

"'Should' they have survived"? Did the Ebionites represent what Jesus himself taught and lived?

My point was that our judgment of what followers of Jesus "always believed" comes from a sample of only one thread that became dominant and suppressed opposing views.

My belief is that "those views" should have been surpressed because they were not in line with Apostolic teaching.

 

[GodsGrace]

A couple of points.

First of all, note that the term "God" has been changed from a person to an essence or a nature.

When was God ever described as a PERSON?
God is not a person...
God is a divine being....yes, an essence...a divine essence.

The Nicene fathers used the Greek word "ousia", or "substance", hence the word "consubstantial" in the Creed. This subtle change in nomenclature is the root of many of the laymen's misunderstanding of the Trinity and the source of some of the sillier arguments and counter-arguments you see in internet forums. (Though the paradox/self-contradiction of being "FULLY human and FULLY divine" also adds to chaos.)

The Trinity causes caos when some want it to.
I came to understand it through John 1:1 and John 1:14.
And if we NEVER come to understand it...it has no bearing on its being a tenet of Christianity.

Second, the verse cited shows that Jesus DID have a will distinct from His Father's that had to be aligned. This is one of the best verses for showing the personhood distinction between the Father and the Son.

I believe it shows more the distinction between Jesus' divine nature/will and His human nature/will.

His human will would have liked to avoid the cross....
but His divine will had to follow the will of the Godhead.

IOW,,,they both had the same will.
The same will was accomplished at the cross.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If a person is going to define themselves as Christian...
then he must adhere, at the very least, to the basic Christian tenets.

I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God,,,
which, basically, would be idolatry...

And why would anyone want to follow a man who thought He was God?

So why do we debate the Trinity on these forums?

I found the following on my feed from YouTube.
Sorry, I don't know how to cut.

Wes Huff perfectly explains and supports my position.
Not because Christianity requires Wes Huff to explain its belief system...
It's been there all along - from the beginning.

Mike Winger and Wes Huff
Point 35.15

2-3% of the Christian Body is Non- Trinitarian.

They are not antichrists.
They believe in Christ,
follow Him,
so they are for Him,
not against Him.

JESUS "who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," Phil.2:6
People have struggled with the concept of Jesus as both God and man. He says believe in Me. The only prerequisite I know is that we believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day. Belief is a heavy word. We have to know Him. He came as a suffering servant, obedient to His Father, submissive, humble and directed us to do the same. So I think because it is difficult to fully grasp that He is God who became flesh and dwelt among us, He is merciful to those who cannot.
To these groups, who also do not recognize the Holy Spirt as a person, He cuddles them along and just does not grow their churches, because of the false doctrine. But their faith does not become void, invalid, because He is the AUTHOR of our faith. They may have to be put through the fire and tested when He returns ... as the Remnent Israel ( Jews) will be. They will see Him and realize their error and mourn, but be saved in the end. So Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarian Universalists, the remnant Jews, Oneness Pentecostals, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Ingleside di Christos, Church of God, will be saved too. Jesus said that things said against Him c an be forgiven - as long as they do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit! Thr Pharisees accused Jesus of healing by the power of Satan - that was blaspheme and extremely dangerous. I do not think any of these followers do that.
My mom wasn't part of anybody these groups, was rebellious, did not have faith in Christ at all until just days before her death, she reached out, called His name and God finally got her attention. MybDad was a atheist most of his life. At ten years old, being brought up as a Catholic, he got on his knees and prayed for His father's life ( who had TB). God said no. And so my Dad decided there wasn't a God, until 70 years later ( of which 3 decades of my witnessing to him did not go out void), God finally lifted his veil of blindness too.
So all these folks and more will be enlightened. When they see Jesus, they are just going to know.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lis...2ahUKEwj07qPLkoaRAxXOFDQIHR-FBJ0Q2J8OegQIDxAE