"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

[Marvelloustime]

have you ever seen those videos where some go around
to colleges asking the students the most basic simple questions and yet THEY DO NOT EVEN KNOW them answers .
WELL it aint just the colleges that dont know the simple basics anymore
WE GOTS A TON of christains that dont even really KNOW or BELEIVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS .
Time for schooling again , T IME for the bible again so as folks can learn again .

@amigo de christo

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Davy,

They believed the persecutions by the Catholic Church upon them as Protestants then represented the end with the prophesied antichrist. The end didn't happen then, and Christ did not return as required per the end time prophecies dealing with the antichrist. But some have continued that old belief against the Catholic Church and a pope

I consider that they did get most of it right and that this is the correct understanding of Daniel 7.

That's right, God's written Word prophesies the antichrist/false-Messiah/man of sin will come of the Jews, and will be setup as king by the orthodox Jews in JERUSALEM, not Rome.

You are most probably aware that this change of ideas was as a result of the work of two Jesuits to deflect attention away from the Papacy as the Antichrist. This has been enthusiastically adopted by many Evangelicals and Pentecostals. I noticed your thread on this subject "The Final Antichrist", but have not had time to properly read this. No one has answered your posts and only 17 views so far. I am not sure if you have considered Daniel 7 in that thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy,

I consider that they did get most of it right and that this is the correct understanding of Daniel 7.

That's a blanket statement of Biblical ignorance you just said above.

Anyone who actually follows The Bible prophecies of events about the end of this world per the Book of Daniel, and Christ's Olivet discourse, and Christ's Book of Revelation, can easily know how those prophecies WERE NOT FULFILLED in 16th century Europe; especially not by a pope, nor have those prophecies even been fulfilled yet to this day.

1. Christ Jesus prophesied the coming of the pseudo-Christ (Antichrist) to Jerusalem who will place the "abomination of desolation" during the "great tribulation" that is to occur just prior to Jesus' 2nd coming. That "great tribulation" did NOT happen in the 16th century Protestant Reformation with persecution by the Catholic Church against Protestants.

2. The prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is about the placing of a literal IDOL at a standing stone temple in Jerusalem built by the orthodox Jews. Antiochus IV served as a blueprint for that in 165 B.C. Jerusalem, but Jesus quoted that prophecy from Daniel 11:31 for the end of this world, about 200 years after... Antiochus had already been dead. That prophecy was NOT fulfilled in 16th century Europe by the Catholic Church.

3. Per the Daniel 9 prophecy of the symbolic seventy weeks, and about the "little horn" in Daniel, etc., the coming false one, the Antichrist, is to have power over the nations and the earth for a period of seven years. And in the middle half of the seven years, he is to end the Jew's daily sacrifices and instead place the "abomination of desolation" in a standing stone Jewish temple at Jerusalem. The Catholic Church never did that, even to this day.

4. The Antichrist per the above Bible prophecies is ONLY to manifest for that 7 years. And the latter half of that 7 year period (Dan.9:27), a 1260 days period, is when the "great tribulation" time is to happen at the 'end' of this world. Then immediately after that 1260 days period Jesus' return is to occur, ending that reign by the Antichrist. So if the pope is the Antichrist, like those old Reformers wrongly believed, then how is it that office of a Catholic pope has lasted much... longer than just 7 years?? and why didn't Lord Jesus return in their day?

I could keep going with all the silly contradictions from men's doctrines involving Reformation beliefs against the Catholic Church, and I'm not even a member of the Catholic Church, but I'm only following the actual Bible prophecies! And furthermore, the way my ancestors came to the American colonies is they fled Catholic persecution in the 16th century against French Protestants, called Huguenots, of which my ancestors were in that group of French Protestant Christians who fled persecution.


BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
What all this boils down to, with those who keep trying to get you to believe a pope is the Biblical Antichrist, is to try and get your attention away... from Jerusalem and the Bible prophecies that are about Jerusalem and its people for the end (like in the Book of Daniel and Revelation, and 2 Thess.2, etc.).

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

How about we do as we are led to do

The Holy Spirit is not leading anybody to focus on only one topic 100% of the time.

Are you even able to lead someone to the Lord so they can be saved?

Or would you only be able to tell them to watch out for the ecumenical movement?

If warning of the dangers of the ecumenical movement you will have to be able to articulate what true salvation is according to God's Word

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Davy,

Anyone who actually follows The Bible prophecies of events about the end of this world per the Book of Daniel, and Christ's Olivet discourse, and Christ's Book of Revelation, can easily know how those prophecies WERE NOT FULFILLED in 16th century Europe; especially not by a pope, nor have those prophecies even been fulfilled yet to this day.

I have yet to unravel all that you are saying here, and I have not spent sufficient time on your other thread on the Antichrist. Some of the things you have stated above do not agree with my present understanding of Daniel 7, Daniel 8 and the Olivet prophecies, mainly Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I would usually consider each of these separately, while you have not made each one individually very clear to me. Possibly your thread on the Antichrist may help me understand your overall perspective.

Briefly, I consider Daniel 7 mainly speaks about the Western Portion of the Roman Empire with detail concerning the rise of the Papacy. Daniel 8 speaks mainly about the Eastern Portion of the Roman Empire and its interaction with the Holy Land. The Olivet Prophecies deal mainly with AD 70 and events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.

the Antichrist, is to have power over the nations and the earth for a period of seven years

I do not accept this future seven year concept as I consider the 70 weeks is a consistent whole.

So if the pope is the Antichrist, like those old Reformers wrongly believed, then how is it that office of a Catholic pope has lasted much... longer than just 7 years??

I do not understand what you are saying here, not only the so-called seven years, but principally as I understand the 1260 days is prophetic of the 1260 years that the Papacy had dominance over the Western Roman Empire portion.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy,

I have yet to unravel all that you are saying here, and I have not spent sufficient time on your other thread on the Antichrist. Some of the things you have stated above do not agree with my present understanding of Daniel 7, Daniel 8 and the Olivet prophecies, mainly Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I would usually consider each of these separately, while you have not made each one individually very clear to me. Possibly your thread on the Antichrist may help me understand your overall perspective.

I don't think it's as difficult as you seem to be making it. All one need do is simply read the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" event which Lord Jesus 'quoted' in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (like Daniel 8:9-14; Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:4-7).

And then note a bit of history about Antiochus IV who in 170-165 B.C. took Jerusalem with an army, and then went inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem and sacrificed swine upon its altar and spread its broth around inside that temple, and then setup an IDOL abomination in Zeus worship. That served as a type for the latter day "abomination of desolation" with the final Antichrist-false-Messiah that will come in our near future.

Then note that about 200 years later, at Jesus' 1st coming, He quoted Daniel about that "abomination of desolation" of Dan.11:31 which moves the final fulfillment of that Daniel prophecy to the end of this world which are what Jesus' signs in His Olivet discourse are about.

Then note the direct parallel Scripture in Christ's Book of Revelation that anchors those above points from the Book of Daniel with their taking place at the very end of this present world.

NOTE: And by the way, Jesus did not quote the "abomination of desolation" event in Luke 21. There instead Jesus was pointing to the very last day when Satan's host of armies will surround Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" IDOL will have been placed at the temple 3.5 years before Satan's army trying to destroy Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon. And this is why Christ's Luke 21 version mentions about the "days of vengeance" from The LORD on that final day. And because Luke 21 also serves as a type of dual fulfillment for 70 A.D. about the Romans, some of its verses point back to that event and the Jewish Diaspora. But the majority of the verses in Luke 21 are only about the very end of this world.

Briefly, I consider Daniel 7 mainly speaks about the Western Portion of the Roman Empire with detail concerning the rise of the Papacy. Daniel 8 speaks mainly about the Eastern Portion of the Roman Empire and its interaction with the Holy Land. The Olivet Prophecies deal mainly with AD 70 and events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.

The 16th century Reformers didn't have all the info that we have today about the rise of the world beast kingdom prophesied in the Books of Daniel and Revelation. 16th century Europe is where that doctrine about the papacy originates, from the Protestant rebellion of that time.

The prophecies especially in Daniel 2 reveal the final beast kingdom will encompass all... nations and peoples. The Book of Revelation prophesies the same thing for the end of this world. So why aren't you asking yourself why the preachers you listen to pushing that old Reformer's doctrine about a pope haven't updated their understanding of Bible prophecy according to the times, and what is actually written in those Bible Books? Why just settle for their pushing that old 16th century Reformer doctrine about a pope? Lord Jesus gave 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, and 5 of those Churches had problems in them and were deceived by false ones. That pattern is still in effect for all Christian Churches today, five out of seven will fall away. So one can consider the Roman Church being in one of those five fallen Churches at the end, but not just them, but also some Protestant Churches fallen away too to make up the five. Only 2 of the 7 Churches Jesus had no problem with, and those 2 only represent His very elect who cannot fall away at the end of this world (Revelation 2 & 3).

I do not accept this future seven year concept as I consider the 70 weeks is a consistent whole.

No matter, it is written, specifically in the Daniel 9:27 verse with the symbolic "one week" which equals a period of 7 years. And if... one tries to change that "one week" (which says just a 'seven' in the Hebrew), then it would throw all the previously fulfilled 69 weeks prophetic events off in confusion.

Daniel 9:27 reveals the coming false one will confirm a covenant for 7 years. In Daniel 11 it reveals that will be the "vile person" who does that. Daniel 9:27 then divides that 7 year period ("one week") into 2 each 1260 day periods. Then when the first 1260 period ends, that is when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup at the temple in Jerusalem, and thus begins that latter half of 1260 days to represent the actual time of "great tribulation," for the end of this world.

All this is not that difficult, the Bible student just needs to stay focused in God's Word before they go listening to men's doctrines.

I do not understand what you are saying here, not only the so-called seven years, but principally as I understand the 1260 days is prophetic of the 1260 years that the Papacy had dominance over the Western Roman Empire portion.

Kind regards
Trevor

That's an error some churches do (I won't mention which one especially does). Only in Scripture like Ezekiel 4:6 where GOD Himself gives a 'day-for-a-year' is that rule to be applied. Those churches try... to force that into the Daniel 9:2 verse with Daniel reading the prophecies in the Book of Jeremiah about the 70 years, but there is no day-for-a-year mentioned there; God didn't use it about the Babylon captivity, He literally meant the Jews would be captive to Babylon for 70 years, and it was so. There again, one heeding a church that tries to use that day-for-a-year for just any... Bible prophecy, is listening to men's doctrines, and not staying in God's written Word.

 

[amigo de christo]

Verily verily i say unto thee
that the watchtower of the JW is not for me nor should it be for thee .
Just a friendly reminder for us all today .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Davy and Greetings amigo de christo,

All this is not that difficult, the Bible student just needs to stay focused in God's Word before they go listening to men's doctrines.

I have now had time to read your other thread on the Antichrist, and now also your latest Post. I find your explanation a strange mixture of ideas. I will continue to hold on to my present view of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 including the 1260 years, Daniel 8 including the 2300 years, Daniel 9 the 70 weeks as 490 years in sequence and not divided, Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the Olivet Prophecy with its primary emphasis on AD 70, the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3.

Verily verily i say unto thee that the watchtower of the JW is not for me nor should it be for thee .
Just a friendly reminder for us all today .

I agree that the JWs do not preach a correct version of end times and many other doctrines.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy and Greetings amigo de christo,

I have now had time to read your other thread on the Antichrist, and now also your latest Post. I find your explanation a strange mixture of ideas.

If what I showed you from the Books of Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation seem strange to you, it has to be because you are NOT staying with what is actually written in God's Word. It means you are heeding men's doctrines instead, which are NOT written in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy and Greetings amigo de christo,

I have now had time to read your other thread on the Antichrist, and now also your latest Post. I find your explanation a strange mixture of ideas. I will continue to hold on to my present view of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 including the 1260 years, Daniel 8 including the 2300 years, Daniel 9 the 70 weeks as 490 years in sequence and not divided, Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the Olivet Prophecy with its primary emphasis on AD 70, the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3.

I agree that the JWs do not preach a correct version of end times and many other doctrines.

Kind regards
Trevor

So you're going to stick with men's doctrine on that 1260 YEARS idea which is NOT written in God's Word?

Since the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27 represents ONLY a period of 7 years per the 70 weeks prophecy, then HOW can that 7 year "one week" be turned into 1260 years???

But you go on, keep listening to those charlatans whom God did not send and they don't know what The Bible actually teaches on these things.

 

[amigo de christo]

Greetings again Davy and Greetings amigo de christo,

I have now had time to read your other thread on the Antichrist, and now also your latest Post. I find your explanation a strange mixture of ideas. I will continue to hold on to my present view of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 including the 1260 years, Daniel 8 including the 2300 years, Daniel 9 the 70 weeks as 490 years in sequence and not divided, Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the Olivet Prophecy with its primary emphasis on AD 70, the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3.

I agree that the JWs do not preach a correct version of end times and many other doctrines.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh i see you read and have read on daniel .
I am sure you also read where JESUS said
THINK not that i have come to bring peace on earth but rather divsions .
Anyone mind explaining to me
why i am seeing so many run right into an ecumenical in terfaith , CHRIST DENYING ,
all religoins merging min dset they think beleive is GODS PLAN FOR WORLD PEACE .
I mean if anyone read daniel also they would have known
OH ITS TRUE there is another who comes in by peace
AND BY PEACE DESTROYS MANY .
We s hall have world peace they cry
THIS IS GODS PLAN to unify us as one for world peace they cry
YET JESUS CHRIST GOT DENIED .
Lets recap shall we .
An idea , that has DENIED before all the dire necessity to HAVE to beleive on JESUS .
AS it embraces every religoin and lies and says we all serve the same GOD .
SO this ecumenical interfaith , WHICH DOES That , and hollers ITS the plan of GOD
for world peace
HAS FORGOTTEN OR NEVER K NEW
JESUS didnt come to bri ng peace on earth
AND HE DARN SURE WOULD NOT HAVE DENIED HIMSELF as a means TO GET IT .
BUT I KNOW WHO DOES . ANTI CHRIST . WE are being decieved , get the heck out of any ecumenical church you know
and DO IT NOW . to be uneq ually yoked WILL BE THEIR FALL .

 

[amigo de christo]

Greetings again Davy and Greetings amigo de christo,

I have now had time to read your other thread on the Antichrist, and now also your latest Post. I find your explanation a strange mixture of ideas. I will continue to hold on to my present view of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 including the 1260 years, Daniel 8 including the 2300 years, Daniel 9 the 70 weeks as 490 years in sequence and not divided, Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the Olivet Prophecy with its primary emphasis on AD 70, the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3.

I agree that the JWs do not preach a correct version of end times and many other doctrines.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh there is something else about this so called bringer of peace that many cannot see
Lets recap ecumeincal intefaith the plan of the vatican and the TWO state solution .
WHAT have they done and what do they plan to do .
TO divide jersualem up . OH its all about peace , unity and GODS PLAN they .
But IS IT . NO SIR .
but guess what this peace dealer d oes
HE SHALL DIVIDE THE LAND for gain . Oh yeah . SO GET THE heck out of any ecumenical church .
THeir key interrelgioius leaders ALREADY SHOWED YOU the lie of anti christ .
WHEN THEY stood before all the worlds religoins and say HEY my christaintiy , my religoin is no better than yours
WE ALL SERVE THE SAME GOD . AS IF KNOWING JESUS THE CHRIST is no better than following them false religoins .
THIS IS ANTI CHRIST . lying away as its spirits of men PUMP out its lie to us all
For to gather the world and her relgoins as one , IN THE G REATEST HOUR OF REBELLLION against CHRIST and the saints
THIS WORLD HAS ever known . BUT WOE UNTO those who partook of this cup . FOR ON THE DAY
of GOD all MIGHTY and the LAMB , wailing upon much wailing will be heard .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Davy,

But you go on, keep listening to those charlatans whom God did not send and they don't know what The Bible actually teaches on these things.

There have been many useful expositions of the Book of Daniel that give a better understanding than your confused dialog. Yes I have received help, but I have also given much personal thought and study to Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11:40-45. Also in recent times I have given much thought to Daniel 12 and the three time periods given in Daniel 12 and have discussed some of this with those in my fellowship.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marvelloustime]

Oh there is something else about this so called bringer of peace that many cannot see
Lets recap ecumeincal intefaith the plan of the vatican and the TWO state solution .
WHAT have they done and what do they plan to do .
TO divide jersualem up . OH its all about peace , unity and GODS PLAN they .
But IS IT . NO SIR .
but guess what this peace dealer d oes
HE SHALL DIVIDE THE LAND for gain . Oh yeah . SO GET THE heck out of any ecumenical church .
THeir key interrelgioius leaders ALREADY SHOWED YOU the lie of anti christ .
WHEN THEY stood before all the worlds religoins and say HEY my christaintiy , my religoin is no better than yours
WE ALL SERVE THE SAME GOD . AS IF KNOWING JESUS THE CHRIST is no better than following them false religoins .
THIS IS ANTI CHRIST . lying away as its spirits of men PUMP out its lie to us all
For to gather the world and her relgoins as one , IN THE G REATEST HOUR OF REBELLLION against CHRIST and the saints
THIS WORLD HAS ever known . BUT WOE UNTO those who partook of this cup . FOR ON THE DAY
of GOD all MIGHTY and the LAMB , wailing upon much wailing will be heard .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Oh i see you read and have read on daniel .
I am sure you also read where JESUS said
THINK not that i have come to bring peace on earth but rather divsions .
Anyone mind explaining to me
why i am seeing so many run right into an ecumenical in terfaith , CHRIST DENYING ,
all religoins merging min dset they think beleive is GODS PLAN FOR WORLD PEACE .
I mean if anyone read daniel also they would have known
OH ITS TRUE there is another who comes in by peace
AND BY PEACE DESTROYS MANY .
We s hall have world peace they cry
THIS IS GODS PLAN to unify us as one for world peace they cry
YET JESUS CHRIST GOT DENIED .
Lets recap shall we .
An idea , that has DENIED before all the dire necessity to HAVE to beleive on JESUS .
AS it embraces every religoin and lies and says we all serve the same GOD .
SO this ecumenical interfaith , WHICH DOES That , and hollers ITS the plan of GOD
for world peace
HAS FORGOTTEN OR NEVER K NEW
JESUS didnt come to bri ng peace on earth
AND HE DARN SURE WOULD NOT HAVE DENIED HIMSELF as a means TO GET IT .
BUT I KNOW WHO DOES . ANTI CHRIST . WE are being decieved , get the heck out of any ecumenical church you know
and DO IT NOW . to be uneq ually yoked WILL BE THEIR FALL .

@amigo de christo

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy,

There have been many useful expositions of the Book of Daniel that give a better understanding than your confused dialog. Yes I have received help, but I have also given much personal thought and study to Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11:40-45. Also in recent times I have given much thought to Daniel 12 and the three time periods given in Daniel 12 and have discussed some of this with those in my fellowship.

Kind regards
Trevor

You mean from Ellen White and the SDA bunch?? Keep making me laugh. They are one of the groups that loves to apply that day-for-a-year idea to everything.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Davy,

You mean from Ellen White and the SDA bunch?? Keep making me laugh. They are one of the groups that loves to apply that day-for-a-year idea to everything.

No, I do not accept most of what the SDAs teach, but I endorse many of the time periods as representing the day for a year principle, for example Daniel 7,8 and 12. This makes much more sense than what you are suggesting. I do have a reference that lists the various expositors that have given a reasonable assessment of the details of the various prophecies of the Book of Daniel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

Greetings again Davy,

No, I do not accept most of what the SDAs teach, but I endorse many of the time periods as representing the day for a year principle, for example Daniel 7,8 and 12. This makes much more sense than what you are suggesting. I do have a reference that lists the various expositors that have given a reasonable assessment of the details of the various prophecies of the Book of Daniel.

Kind regards
Trevor

Than what I... am suggesting? The Daniel Scripture speaks for itself. It's not rocket science.

So when someone comes along claiming the Daniel Scripture is saying something else other than what is written, where there is no metaphor or allegory given, that is the sin of adding or taking away from God's Word. Origen at the Christian school in Alexandria, Egypt got excommunicated for doing that.

 

[gpresdo]

Greetings again Jack,

All 131 Posts? Perhaps you cannot give a brief summary.

Kind regards
Trevor

Don't fall for his failures to respond to questions..... when asked.

 

[gpresdo]

Notice Jesus said, "... but whoever does not believe will be condemned." He didn't say whoever does not get baptized will be condemned. So why did He command the believer to get baptized, and then not... show without water baptism also along with unbelief will cause condemnation?

The answer to that should be simple, if you recall the malefactor crucified with Jesus who believed on Him and His Kingdom. The malefactor admitted that he was a sinner, yet he believed on Lord Jesus, even while hanging on his cross. Did that malefactor have the opportunity to come down off his cross and get water baptized? No, of course not. So do you think Jesus still has the Power to save in that situation? I'd hate to have to answer Lord Jesus at His coming when He asks why we don't believe He has the Power to save without the ritual of water baptism.

Thus the way we are to think of it is this: Jesus Himself got baptized of water by John the Baptist. So Lord Jesus set the example of water baptism for us, and we have no excuse if we are able to get baptized. But someone who believes on Jesus on their deathbed, and isn't able to get water baptized, Jesus still has the Power to save. So it's not up to us. It's up to our Lord Jesus, it's HIS decision, not ours.

As for baptism by The Holy Spirit, that is a different matter, because The New Testament shows some received The Holy Spirit before they were baptized of water, and others that had only John's baptism hadn't received The Holy Spirit until they had heard about Christ's death and resurrection, and then they were immediately (by hearing The Gospel) baptized of The Spirit. It does not say they went and had water baptism again.

So I'd recommend the believer go get baptized of water, just to make sure.

Water baptism definitely marks you as belonging to Jesus Christ.

Even though I was raised in the Christian Church, I didn't get baptized until I turned 40. I always believed, but only once I got baptized at 40 did The Holy Spirit hit me and started opening up His Word in my understanding. Before my baptism, I don't know how many times I had tried to study and understand God's Word but it was like a foreign language to me, even when reading it in my natural language of birth (English).

If one believes he will be baptized as scripture says. Because he believes.
They go together.