8 days, the 8th day leading to a new beginning.

[Rockerduck]

Many times in the Bible ~ and specifically here in Revelation 20 ~ things that either are presently happening or will at some point in the future happen... or both... are spoken of in the past tense. And specifically regarding John's Revelation, this is true. The thing to keep in mind in John's Revelation is that he is ~ and we are, by extension ~ being shown things as if they are have been completed... really in the same sense as... well, some time-travel movies... John's older self has come back in time to the time in which he was writing and speaking to him about what has happened, is occurring now, and will continue to occur as if it has already happened... and from the perspective of John's older self has. And we can put ourselves in John's shoes, even now. This is what John means when he calls himself "(our) brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus" (Revelation 1:9).


Ah. We do know the start. <smile> With regard to Revelation 20, John tells us the start ~ symbolically ~ in Revelation 20:1-3. <smile>


Right, but that's true now. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." The fact that He is seated at the right hand of the Father is... a far, far greater thing than many Christians imagine. And, we who have been born again of the Spirit are seated with Him.


Well, right, we are reigning with Him, just only (although it is no mere thing) in the Spirit right now, which is the same sense as He being with us now, even in this life, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20 ~ "...behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." One day, though... <smile> ...one great day, it will be in person... our faith will be sight.

Grace and peace to you, RD.

The start of the "1000 yrs" or time period is not symbolic, the time period is. Jesus said and the apostle Paul said when it begins; it begins after the first resurrection. After we die, we are with Christ in paradise, but until Jesus presents the Bride to the Father, we can't reign or Judge. So, rapture or die, the body of Christ, the bride, are waiting for the Father to tell Jesus to bring the bride home.
The Holy Spirit told me that the book of Revelation has ended. We are waiting for the Last Trumpet.

 

[PinSeeker]

The start of the "1000 yrs" or time period is not symbolic, the time period is.

Right; I've said exactly that.

Jesus said and the apostle Paul said when it begins; it begins after the first resurrection.

Hm. Not disagreeing, but I'd like you to cite what they say to that effect. And no Biblical writer except John in Revelation 20 says anything about a "first resurrection," and we know how... confusing ...Revelation in general and Revelation 20 in particular is to so many folks.

After we die, we are with Christ in paradise...

Yes, our disembodied souls are...

...but until Jesus presents the Bride to the Father, we can't reign or Judge.

This I would disagree with and would ask you ~ again ~ what passage or passages from the Bible you think backs you up in saying this.

So, rapture or die, the body of Christ, the bride, are waiting for the Father to tell Jesus to bring the bride home.

Hmmm... <smile>

The Holy Spirit told me...

Uh-oh...

that the book of Revelation has ended.

He has told me otherwise. <smile>

We are waiting for the Last Trumpet.

We are, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rockerduck]

Right; I've said exactly that.


Hm. Not disagreeing, but I'd like you to cite what they say to that effect. And no Biblical writer except John in Revelation 20 says anything about a "first resurrection," and we know how... confusing ...Revelation in general and Revelation 20 in particular is to so many folks.


Yes, our disembodied souls are...


This I would disagree with and would ask you ~ again ~ what passage or passages from the Bible you think backs you up in saying this.


Hmmm... <smile>


Uh-oh...


He has told me otherwise. <smile>


We are, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

The Bride of Christ is presented to the Father. This is found in the parables of Jesus, but not explained. The five wise and 5 foolish virgins is one. How would you explain the bridegroom coming.? That's found in the first century weddings to explain it. The groom and bride are betrothed at the gate in front of witnesses and family. The groom goes home with his father to make a room for his bride. After the groom finishes the room then only the father can tell the groom when he can go get his bride.
What are the exact words the Holy Spirit you about the Book of Revelation?

 

[PinSeeker]

The Bride of Christ is presented to the Father.

Absolutely. We will be presented blameless, for sure:

• "...He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by his death, in order to present (us) holy and blameless and above reproach before Him..." (Colossians 1:22)
• "...so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints..." (1 Thessalonians 3:13).
• "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
• "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy" (Jude 1:24)

How would you explain the bridegroom coming?

You mean Christ's return?

...only the father can tell the groom when he can go get his bride.

Well, right, "concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Jesus, in Mark 13:32), yes.

What are the exact words the Holy Spirit you about the Book of Revelation?

That's... not the Holy Spirit, of course... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rockerduck.

 

[Rockerduck]

Absolutely. We will be presented blameless, for sure:

• "...He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by his death, in order to present (us) holy and blameless and above reproach before Him..." (Colossians 1:22)
• "...so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints..." (1 Thessalonians 3:13).
• "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
• "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy" (Jude 1:24)

You mean Christ's return?


Well, right, "concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Jesus, in Mark 13:32), yes.

That's... not the Holy Spirit, of course... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rockerduck.

Why did you say the Holy Spirit said differently then? To be clear, if you do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit it is a waste of time to discuss this. The gifts of the Holy Spirit have not stopped and are promised.
John 16:13-14 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

 

[ewq1938]

The Thousand years is symbolism.

No, the thousand years is an exact time period using a Greek word that can only mean exactly a thousand.

 

[ewq1938]

Read it again. this time scratch off a thousand yrs and it reads " they lived and reigned with Christ' . Yes, for a time period beginning and ending. We don't know the start time or the finish time.

Wrong. Rev 20 is clear on the start and ending of it and the context is starting at the second coming and ends just before the GWTJ.

 

[Rockerduck]

Wrong. Rev 20 is clear on the start and ending of it and the context is starting at the second coming and ends just before the GWTJ.

when and where?

 

[ewq1938]

when and where?

After the resurrection, read Rev 20

 

[Rockerduck]

After the resurrection, read Rev 20

On earth or heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the thousand years is an exact time period using a Greek word that can only mean exactly a thousand.

You are trying to claim that the Greek word can't be used symbolically and has to refer to a literal thousand, which is just ridiculous. Almost any word can be used symbolically. Saying that the Greek word, which does translate as "a thousand" in English, can't be symbolic is like saying the Greek word arnion, translated as "a Lamb" or "the Lamb" many times in Revelation, can't be used symbolically and can only refer to a literal lamb. Or it's like saying that the Hebrew word 'elep̄, which means "a thousand" in English, can't be used symbolically even though it is used that way in Deuteronomy 7:9 where it talks about God keeping His promises to a thousand generations and in Psalm 50:10 where it talks about God owning the cattle on a thousand hills.

 

[ewq1938]

On earth or heaven?

The thousand years is a rule over the nations so has to be where they are.

Premill: Earth (right)
Amill: Heaven and Earth (Partially wrong)
SDA: Heaven only (wrong)

 

[PinSeeker]

Why did you say the Holy Spirit said differently then?

Um, you'd have to explain where and/or you think I did, because... Sorry, that's a bit of a head-scratcher to me...

Ah, you know, maybe you're saying that me disagreeing with what you said the Holy Spirit said to you is, in effect, saying the Holy Spirit said something different than He actually did. Is that it? If so, then no, I think you're either a) mistaken about what the Holy Spirit said to you, or b) mistaken regarding who the one speaking to you actually was/is, that it was not actually the Holy Spirit... <smile>

To be clear, if you do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Why would you even speculate on that? Sure I do. The gifts of the Spirit are irrevocable, and Paul speaks specifically of the gifts of the Spirit in all his letters. Goodness gracious. Yeah, not sure what you think gives you ground to even present such a supposition.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit have not stopped and are promised.

Sure. And all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ. Again, not sure where all this is even coming from.

John 16:13-14 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

Love it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

The remainder ~ the remaining portion ~ of it is, yes. <smile>


Began quite some time ago... from our perspective anyway... <smile>

From the 2nd century Amillennialist perspective, you mean. That was a doctrine that began in the 2nd century A.D.

 

[PinSeeker]

From the 2nd century Amillennialist perspective, you mean. That was a doctrine that began in the 2nd century A.D.

No, that's not what I mean. <smile> That's just you foisting things on me... and your opinion rearing its head again... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

No, that's not what I mean. <smile> That's just you foisting things on me... and your opinion rearing its head again... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

Not at all. I am speaking reality and history. The Apostles and first century Church fathers were Premillennialists. The doctrine of Amillennialism began in the 2nd century A.D., a fact of Christian history.


In case some brethren here don't know the difference:

1. Premillennialism = at Jesus' future return begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved nations with the "rod of iron" promised Him in Psalms 2. This is what the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is speaking about.

2. Amillennialism = rejects a literal "thousand years" reign by Christ in the future, but instead treats the 1,000 years idea in a spiritual sense representing the Church age from the cross to Jesus' future return. Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century A.D. was who made it a popular doctrine in the Church at that time, and it was continued in development.

 

[Davy]

The Thousand years is symbolism. All of Revelation is images and prophetic symbolism. Sometimes the symbolism is answered, like the seven stars and lampstands, being the 7 angels and 7 churches, but nothing else is unless it agrees with another scripture or is answered.

No, the "thousand years" or Revelation 20 is not... symbolism. It is easy for those studied in God's Word to recognize when metaphor, parable, allegory, symbolism is being given, and when it is not. There exists those whom God did not, and does not reveal many of His Truths to, Jesus' answer to His disciples in Matthew 13 that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven is not... given to those multitudes, is one such example.

Some in past history got in trouble with the early Christian Church because of spiritualizing literal Truths written in God's Word. Origen and Clement of Alexandria were a couple of early Church fathers guilty of doing that.

Those who make the mistake of 'spiritualizing' in God's Word are usually those not given to understand that part of God's Word, like Jesus' parable in Matthew 13 that He said was not given for the multitude present to understand.

This definitely does not... mean I don't recognize how God uses symbols, metaphor, parable, allegory, etc. in His Word. But they always... without exception, refer to a literal Truth. The reason for their use is to make it easier to get His point across, not more difficult. So when men's doctrines try to turn it into some unrecognizable thing, or try and spiritualize it away, or even create a second metaphor with it, it shows they were not given by God to understand it. It means they are not like the five wise virgins who had the spare vessel of the Oil (Holy Spirit).

 

[PinSeeker]

Not at all. I am speaking reality and history. The Apostles and first century Church fathers were Premillennialists. The doctrine of Amillennialism began in the 2nd century A.D., a fact of Christian history.

Actually, that cannot be true. There were virtually no thoughts of the thousand years, the millennium, or the millennial reign of Revelation 20 in the first century, because John did not actually write his Revelation until the first century itself was almost history... all but about five years of it... when he was in exile on the island of Patmos. Early Christian writers are almost in agreement Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian which ended in A.D. 96. So, perhaps you mean to say the second century, which is correct; that's when both premillennialism and amillennialism came to be. Even so, it was then what it is, and, well, it is what it is.

In case some brethren here don't know the difference:

1. Premillennialism = at Jesus' future return begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved nations with the "rod of iron" promised Him in Psalms 2. This is what the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is speaking about.

2. Amillennialism = rejects a literal "thousand years" reign by Christ in the future, but instead treats the 1,000 years idea in a spiritual sense representing the Church age from the cross to Jesus' future return. Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century A.D. was who made it a popular doctrine in the Church at that time, and it was continued in development.

Sure. Again, though, even so, it was then what it is, and yeah, it is what it is.

The only thing I would add to this is that even in amillennialism, the "thousand years," the millennium, of Revelation 20 ~ and we have to say Revelation 20 because that's the only place in all of Scripture it is mentioned ~ is a very real, literal time period... not something that is not really a real thing, or just an "idea," as the a- prefix would seem to suggest. Amillennialists say that we are in that time period right now... since Jesus, and until His return. And... obviously... that the millennium, while a real time period of some number of earth years, is not literally 1,000 earth years; only the Father knows the true length of His millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[PinSeeker]

So:

Disagreement with regard to the millennium, which, again, has been the same since the early second century, partly concerns the chronological relation of Revelation 20:1-10 to Revelation 19:11-21. Premillennialists believe that 20:1-10 simply follows the Second Coming, which is depicted in Revelation 19:11-21. But it makes much more sense to see Revelation 20:1-15 as the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of 7, leading up to the Second Coming. Several different kinds of evidence point in this direction.

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14, 16; 17:14; 19:11-21.
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Thus, Revelation 20:1-15 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davy]

Actually, that cannot be true. There were virtually no thoughts of the thousand years, the millennium, or the millennial reign of Revelation 20 in the first century, because John did not actually write his Revelation until the first century itself was almost history... all but about five years of it... when he was in exile on the island of Patmos. Early Christian writers are almost in agreement Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian which ended in A.D. 96. So, perhaps you mean to say the second century, which is correct; that's when both premillennialism and amillennialism came to be. Even so, it was then what it is, and, well, it is what it is.


Sure. Again, though, even so, it was then what it is, and yeah, it is what it is.

The only thing I would add to this is that even in amillennialism, the "thousand years," the millennium, of Revelation 20 ~ and we have to say Revelation 20 because that's the only place in all of Scripture it is mentioned ~ is a very real, literal time period... not something that is not really a real thing, or just an "idea," as the a- prefix would seem to suggest. Amillennialists say that we are in that time period right now... since Jesus, and until His return. And... obviously... that the millennium, while a real time period of some number of earth years, is not literally 1,000 earth years; only the Father knows the true length of His millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

You of course forget that the Old Testament prophets were given to speak of Christ's future reign over the unsaved, per Psalms 2, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 24:22-24 and even Peter in 2 Peter 3:8-9, and even Apostle Paul when he spoke of the "day of Christ", which is about the day of Christ's future coming and start of His reign. You see, the "rod of iron" Jesus told His elect of the 7 Churches that would reign with Him in Revelation was actually first mentioned in Psalms 2.

Even here, with what Apostle Paul said... he was pointing to Christ's future "thousand years" reign with "a rod of iron"... which is what that "day of the Lord Jesus" is about...

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

The one Paul said for the Church at Corinth to cast out was having sexual intercourse with his mother. But how did Paul know that one's spirit could be saved in that "day of the Lord Jesus"? That's a definite pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. So the Scripture does not have to specifically state the phrase "thousand years" to be pointed to by the Old Testament prophets, because beyond all doubt that is where Apostle Paul got that above idea from, not from Apostle John after 96 A.D.