Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

If I could present you with undeniable evidence of this foreknowledge and counsel, would you accept it?

Your misrepresentations of my words Hidden, leave me with no confidence of your ability for integrity.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Good News is for the whole progeny of Adam.

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive'. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Yes, all who are found to be in Christ - correct!

Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Those without are condemned to remain dead.... if you don't understand Paul's use of "in" once again I can show it to you anytime.

Your considerations mean nothing in light of the obvious truth above.

If you want to know how to be "in" Christ read Romans 6...it's very clearly spelled out! It's also in 1 Corinthians 15 if you should look!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your misrepresentations of my words Hidden, leave me with no confidence of your ability for integrity.

I'll take that as a no then. If anything, you are consistent in your willing ignorance.

 

[Wrangler]

perfected him through suffering

This verse shows Jesus is NOT the unchanging God of Scripture. Why else would Jesus need perfecting through suffering?

 

[Wrangler]

This verse shows Jesus is NOT the unchanging God of Scripture. Why else would Jesus need perfecting through suffering?

And a point of linguistics. Who perfected Jesus through suffering?

God - in his unitarian nature - did the acting as the subject of the sentence. Jesus was acted upon, the object of the sentence.

We find this arrangement throughout the NT. God - in his unitarian nature - gave to the world he so loved, the subject of the sentence. Who was given? Jesus, the object of the sentence acted upon.

 

[St. SteVen]

So strange that you just blindly ignore half the plan.

Rom 9:21-23

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So strange that you just blindly ignore the "WHAT IF..."

 

[Hiddenthings]

So strange that you just blindly ignore the "WHAT IF..."

@Lizbeth

Romans 9:21-23 provide more substance than St Steven is able to grasp.

To make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy:

Ironically, it is often the “vessels of God’s mercy” who experience the greatest benefit from witnessing the destruction of the “vessels of His wrath.” As God told Moses, “This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and tell the people of Israel: ‘You have seen what I did to Egypt, how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. Now, if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession’” (Exodus 19:3-5).

In a similar way, Gentile believers would marvel at their calling when, in AD 70, the Roman legions descended upon Jerusalem, laying waste to the people of the Covenant. It has always been true that the fullness of God’s mercy becomes most apparent to the righteous when they witness His judgment upon the wicked and realize they have been spared from it.

Whom He prepared in advance for glory:

A similar statement was made by Christ himself: “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34). God has been working through His angels and His Spirit to bring many sons to glory; indeed, this is His supreme purpose (Romans 8:28-30).

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Lizbeth, I know this might sound painfully obvious, but I don't believe St. SteVen is aware of, or understands, what God has done in Egypt or throughout history. For SteVen, the Bible seems more like a 'choose your own adventure' book, where he skips the chapters that reveal God’s judgments and instead focuses on those that let him craft his own version of God. He attributes God with no Justice or Righteousness at all.

I'm really enjoying his posts because they provide an opportunity to teach truth. In a similar way, God works with both the wicked and the faithful, through His justice and judgment, the obedient learn to revere His Holiness.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Here’s my take ….

QT likes to think of himself as too smart by half, believing his words are too profound to be readily understood by anyone who denies there be clouds in his coffee.

Holding fast to epistemological quicksand, he says things like, ‘you think the verse means X but it means so much more than that. - AND it doesn’t mean what you think it means’ Sadly, he refrains from edifying anyone’s understanding, staying behind a fictitious cloak of gnostic insight and superiority of spirituality.

… what do you think of my take?

I’ve long since stopped engaging with his philosophical ramblings, which have no foundation in the Word of God. He’s not the only one I’ve seen fall into this pattern. He hides behind a facade of spiritual insight but never offers any clear, accessible teaching that would help others grow in their faith. Instead, he throws out one-liners that he thinks will provoke deep spiritual thought, but they’re really just nonsensical ramblings. The sooner he opens his mind to the full scope of Scripture, the sooner his gifts could actually become useful in this forum (and to God).

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, all who are found to be in Christ - correct!

Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Those without are condemned to remain dead.... if you don't understand Paul's use of "in" once again I can show it to you anytime.

Your considerations mean nothing in light of the obvious truth above.

If you want to know how to be "in" Christ read Romans 6...it's very clearly spelled out! It's also in 1 Corinthians 15 if you should look!

Read the texts again....ALL are in Christ.....there is no condemnation.
You are supposing that some are not in Christ. Do you also suppose that some are not in Adam? 1 Corinthians 15:22

All are in need of Good News....and as I recall the angels on Bethlehem's hills saying in Luke 2:10
'Fear not: for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people'

John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

John 3:17:
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him".

Was God successful in saving the World.....a resounding YES
Does everybody in the World want the salvation given them.....a resounding NO

Why don't they want it?....many convoluted reasons but it comes down to not believing/ trusting what God has freely given them just like many of the Jews refused to believe Jesus rose from the dead, overcoming death and the grave. They construct preferred theories and have hoops for others to jump through. Matthew 23:4

The idea that only some are selected for Salvation is taking Paul out of his own context.....and interestingly, it suits the context of those who consider themselves above. (however they measure it, for whatever reason)
Consider the Pharisees who prided themselves on 'knowing the Law' which the rabble, they said, didn't.....subsequently they elevated themselves and pushed others down in judgement.
John 7:49 'But this rabble who do not know the law are accursed!'

 

[Hiddenthings]

Read the texts again....ALL are in Christ.....there is no condemnation.

Firstly, let's use the chapter you first misused in 1 Corinthians to support your false teaching

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

You are correct that the Goodnews is for all people, but not all people will respond.
You are also correct that all in Adam die due to inherited mortality and sin, however only All of those who are found to be in Christ (belong to Christ) will be saved.

You then oddly quoted John 3:16 which counter argues your understanding.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

Again, you have defined those who believe in him as those who belong to him.

John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"

Christ has already overcome the world:

In John 16:33 "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

The you here represent all those who in Christ have also overcome the world through faith.

So here is a concise list for you to ponder based on John 3:16:

• Redemption originates solely from God's uncaused love. It is God's initiative, not something initiated by the believer.
• Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God," emphasizing His unique relationship with the Father.
• The atoning sacrifice of Jesus is the means by which humanity is redeemed.
• Salvation is available to all people, without distinction, reflecting the universal scope of God’s saving plan.
• Justification comes by faith in Christ alone, and not through any other means or works.
• Union with Christ Through Faith and Baptism, this justifying faith unites the believer to Christ, especially through baptism, which symbolizes this union.
• In contrast to the Law's promise of "length of days," the gospel offers both present and everlasting enjoyment of "eternal life."
• For the person who rejects Christ, the ultimate outcome is spiritual oblivion (permanent death) or eternal separation from God.
• The Covenant Name of God: The phrase "which is" (ho on) in John 3:13 is a reference to the Covenant Name of God, as found in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint ("I AM").

You are showing me and all who read the Bible how important it is to read with care - no care = no interpretation!

 

[quietthinker]

Firstly, let's use the chapter you first misused in 1 Corinthians to support your false teaching

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

You are correct that the Goodnews is for all people, but not all people will respond.
You are also correct that all in Adam die due to inherited mortality and sin, however only All of those who are found to be in Christ (belong to Christ) will be saved.

You then oddly quoted John 3:16 which counter argues your understanding.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

Again, you have defined those who believe in him as those who belong to him.

John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"

Christ has already overcome the world:

In John 16:33 "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

The you here represent all those who in Christ have also overcome the world through faith.

So here is a concise list for you to ponder based on John 3:16:

• Redemption originates solely from God's uncaused love. It is God's initiative, not something initiated by the believer.
• Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God," emphasizing His unique relationship with the Father.
• The atoning sacrifice of Jesus is the means by which humanity is redeemed.
• Salvation is available to all people, without distinction, reflecting the universal scope of God’s saving plan.
• Justification comes by faith in Christ alone, and not through any other means or works.
• Union with Christ Through Faith and Baptism, this justifying faith unites the believer to Christ, especially through baptism, which symbolizes this union.
• In contrast to the Law's promise of "length of days," the gospel offers both present and everlasting enjoyment of "eternal life."
• For the person who rejects Christ, the ultimate outcome is spiritual oblivion (permanent death) or eternal separation from God.
• The Covenant Name of God: The phrase "which is" (ho on) in John 3:13 is a reference to the Covenant Name of God, as found in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint ("I AM").

You are showing me and all who read the Bible how important it is to read with care - no care = no interpretation!

What it comes down to Hidden is what you tell the world at large. Do you give them good news or good advice?
Good News in this context is a past tense proclamation.....what God has done
'Good' advice on the other hand insists people jump through certain hoops before access to the prize. ....what you must do

One's idea of what constitutes the Gospel hinges on either of these.

 

[quietthinker]

Here’s my take ….

QT likes to think of himself as too smart by half, believing his words are too profound to be readily understood by anyone who denies there be clouds in his coffee.

Holding fast to epistemological quicksand, he says things like, ‘you think the verse means X but it means so much more than that. - AND it doesn’t mean what you think it means’ Sadly, he refrains from edifying anyone’s understanding, staying behind a fictitious cloak of gnostic insight and superiority of spirituality.

… what do you think of my take?

What do I think of that take?.....sounds like a typical Pharisaical rambling.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What it comes down to Hidden is what you tell the world at large. Do you give them good news or good advice?
Good News in this context is a past tense proclamation.....what God has done
'Good' advice on the other hand insists people jump through certain hoops before access to the prize. ....what you must do

One's idea of what constitutes the Gospel hinges on either of these.

The Goodnews has not changed and will never change Quiet.

Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

In the context!

Not even the revered name of Moses, in whom the Jews allegedly placed their trust (Luke 16:31), can save, as he himself was barred from entering the Promised Land due to his sin (Deuteronomy 34:5). However, the name of Jesus Christ holds true power because of His sinless life and His clear resurrection from the dead. The Apostle Paul made the same argument to the Jews in Galatia, as he explained in Acts 13:38-39.

Acts 13:38-39 38 "Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

So you have:

-Everyone who believes!
-Those who belong to him!
-In Christ there is now no condemnation for those what are in....!

Only pure ignorance can stop these truths from piercing your ears.

 

[quietthinker]

The Goodnews has not changed and will never change Quiet.

Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

In the context!

Not even the revered name of Moses, in whom the Jews allegedly placed their trust (Luke 16:31), can save, as he himself was barred from entering the Promised Land due to his sin (Deuteronomy 34:5). However, the name of Jesus Christ holds true power because of His sinless life and His clear resurrection from the dead. The Apostle Paul made the same argument to the Jews in Galatia, as he explained in Acts 13:38-39.

Acts 13:38-39 38 "Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

So you have:

-Everyone who believes!
-Those who belong to him!
-In Christ there is now no condemnation for those what are in....!

Only pure ignorance can stop these truths from piercing your ears.

My security is what you define as ignorance. It gives me chutzpah. I think Paul encountered the same opposition.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
'For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God'.

 

[Hiddenthings]

My security is what you define as ignorance. It gives me chutzpah. I think Paul encountered the same opposition.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
'For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God'.

It’s a stumbling block for you because you don’t understand how one is able to be in Christ. You take it upon yourself to define the power of God, yet fail to follow the counsel of the Apostles. Every time I've spoken to their teaching you have spoken over it and against it. As I said each time you post I am able to allow the Apostles to speak that Goodnews. I should thank you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
'For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God'.

Had Christ come with worldly glory, only the rich could have received him; had he come as a philosopher, only the scholars would have understood. But by coming as he did, he made himself available to all, whether Jew or Greek who are willing to humble themselves and accept God’s way, which surpasses human pride. For those who do, Christ becomes both the wisdom of God and the power of God, revealing God’s wisdom and power in his very being and through what he accomplished. Only God's wisdom could find a way for forgiveness, and only His power could enable victory over sin.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It gives me chutzpah.

It's foolishness.

 

[quietthinker]

It’s a stumbling block for you because you don’t understand how one is able to be in Christ. You take it upon yourself to define the power of God, yet fail to follow the counsel of the Apostles. Every time I've spoken to their teaching you have spoken over it and against it. As I said each time you post I am able to allow the Apostles to speak that Goodnews. I should thank you.

How is it you are quick to tell me how it is for me Hidden.....full of advice while patting yourself on the back?
My conclusion is that your world is one where you consider yourself an unsolicited advisor as opposed to a bearer of good news.
Even The Good News is hijacked, reworked and made to serve your theories so that it surfaces like a commodity for sale at prices you set.
Yes, your advice and your hoops have a pious flavour, confess, repent, be baptised followed by further ratcheting to other sub categories, keeping your prisoners in anxiety, fear of judgement and the ubiquitous lack of assurance.

 

[quietthinker]

It's foolishness.

You are shameless in your attempts to pull me down Hidden. I know that spirit!