The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

[Hiddenthings]

Your qualification is determined by yourself.....quite the contrary how you presume to qualify others.
Unfortunately, I have little hope you would understand this statement.

We have moved far beyond your petty, self‑indulgent musings, Quiet. This discussion is uncovering a truth about Judas, one you cannot engage with because your own error prevents you from contributing. The conversation has left you both behind, and where are you now to be found?

 

[Hiddenthings]

"in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out"

I find it odd we are given this detail as though it is hiding something significant about Judas' end.

The phrase “bowels of mercy” (or "tender mercies" depending on the translation) in the Old Testament is typically linked to deep compassion or inner emotional feeling, drawing from the Hebrew understanding of the “bowels” (literally, the internal organs, especially the heart, kidneys, or gut), which were considered the seat of emotions and affection.

Here is how it was used in the OT

Psalm 103:4 "who redeems your life from the pit (grave), who crowns you with steadfast love and (tender) mercies."

The inclusion of such a vivid, almost grotesque description in the New Testament may carry symbolic significance, rooted in the Jewish understanding of the importance of God’s mercy. It speaks to how one who meets such an end symbolizes those lost in outer darkness, unreachable by the saving light of God’s mercy.

 

[ProDeo]

Why is there weeping and gnashing of teeth in this place of outer darkness? @Lizbeth

Here is an idea, thus without saying it is truth.

Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The new Jerusalem, the city of Light.

A few verses further -

Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Is Outside outer darkness? Makes sense. The gnashing of teeth, they see the city of light and realize what they have missed?

Or the essence of the great divorce book by D.C. Lewis, in a nutshell : some want to go to the city, but as closer as they come the Light of God will shine on them stronger and stronger, they become aware of their sins more and more, some will repent, others can't stand the light and choose to remain in their sins and flee back into outer darkness. Note, D.C. Lewis was a purgatory believer.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is Outside outer darkness? Makes sense. The gnashing of teeth, they see the city of light and realize what they have missed?

Or the essence of the great divorce book by D.C. Lewis, in a nutshell : some want to go to the city, but as closer as they come the Light of God will shine on them stronger and stronger, they become aware of their sins more and more, some will repent, others can't stand the light and choose to remain in their sins and flee back into outer darkness. Note, D.C. Lewis was a purgatory believer.

Yes, interesting that there are those who live in this outer darkness, but the gates of the City will never be shut.
Makes sense that the repentant could eventually enter. The Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations.
The unclean will never enter, but those who wash their robes.

 

[quietthinker]

The second resurrection is that of the wicked. Teeming billions from every age marching from over the whole earth (as sands on the seashore) They surround The City (the New Jerusalem which has come down from heaven) It is radiant beyond anything they could imagine. They desire to take it by force, no doubt the force of millennia of acquired skills and developed technology of war....marshalled by the one (satan and fallen angels) who has persuaded them it is he who has resurrected them by his superior power?
A similar scenario to CS Lewis?....not DC Lewis :)

 

[ProDeo]

I was sad to see ProDeo had also been deceived by their doctrine.

I am not into universalism since it can't be proven from Scripture.

But I am not like you, ducking difficult questions when it's about God's mercy on billions of people who never heard the Gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

I am not into universalism since it can't be proven from Scripture.

Frankly, none of the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement can be"proven from Scripture" if that means avoiding contradictions.
All three biblical views are contradictory.
- Annihilationism (the wicked are destroyed) contradicts Damnationism (the wicked burn forever)
- They both contradict Universalism. (all are redeemed in the end)

Most important to me is what each of these views claims about the character of God.
To me that overshadows the biblical aspect.
- Annihilationism means God could not redeem the wicked = sin wins
- Damnationism means that God is sadistic beyond belief = sin wins BIG TIME
- Universalism solves the sin issue once and for all. A God of mercy and grace. = sin loses

 

[quietthinker]

Frankly, none of the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement can be"proven from Scripture" if that means avoiding contradictions.
All three biblical views are contradictory.
- Annihilationism (the wicked are destroyed) contradicts Damnationism (the wicked burn forever)
- They both contradict Universalism. (all are redeemed in the end)

Most important to me is what each of these views claims about the character of God.
To me that overshadows the biblical aspect.
- Annihilationism means God could not redeem the wicked = sin wins
- Damnationism means that God is sadistic beyond belief = sin wins BIG TIME
- Universalism solves the sin issue once and for all. A God of mercy and grace. = sin loses

Has it been considered that God is not responsible for the choice people make?
Judas chose to suicide (die) Do we hold God responsible and say sin wins?

Why would some choose to die? I would say they have been deceived...yes, tricked into believing suicide is the best option.
If many (as Rev.6 describes) decide death is better (destroying themselves) than facing The Lamb, is God responsible because he has given them choice....I say no.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Is Outside outer darkness? Makes sense. The gnashing of teeth, they see the city of light and realize what they have missed?

Agree.

The bookend is "That they may have the right to the tree of life." The Greek term "exousia" encompasses both authority and the privilege to act, similar to the concept expressed in John 1:12. The preposition "epi," translated as "to," can imply direction—specifically, the right to approach or reach, which is how the Revised Version (RV) interprets it. This idea is also reflected in Revelation 2:7. What was taken away from Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:22-24) is now restored and made available to the Elect.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I am not into universalism since it can't be proven from Scripture.

That's a relief!

But I am not like you, ducking difficult questions when it's about God's mercy on billions of people who never heard the Gospel.

I've answered all your questions and some...though you have not acknowledged the Cost of Creation principle. Also, you don't need to be like me - being like the Master is the work before us!

 

[Hiddenthings]

- Annihilationism means God could not redeem the wicked = sin wins
- Damnationism means that God is sadistic beyond belief = sin wins BIG TIME
- Universalism solves the sin issue once and for all. A God of mercy and grace. = sin loses

You hold these extreme, unqualified views.

Sin will not rule over you, because you are no longer under the law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

But Romans 6, in its entirety, shows that those who are in Christ are promised salvation, while those who are not will perish.

If you're without Christ, then, yes, sin has the final say! But if you're raised and redeemed in him, sin has lost its power.

It's all about choice...and fate

 

[St. SteVen]

Has it been considered that God is not responsible for the choice people make?
Judas chose to suicide (die) Do we hold God responsible and say sin wins?

Why would some choose to die? I would say they have been deceived...yes, tricked into believing suicide is the best option.
If many (as Rev.6 describes) decide death is better (destroying themselves) than facing The Lamb, is God responsible because he has given them choice....I say no.

Good questions, thanks.
My reference to "sin wins" was in regard to the final judgment.
The sin problem, in my view, is not solved with either Annihilationism or Damnationism.
Only Universalism offers an ultimate solution.

With "free will" already comes the solution of the atonement. (death penalty for sin paid in full)
What is left to resolve are the acts of the individual, the nations and the leaders, both government and religious.

In terms of responsibility, since God is sovereign He is ultimately responsible.
Nothing is out of His control. Sin is on a short leash. God will resolve it. IMHO

Suicide is a personal decision. To be clear, a poor decision. (usually)
No love greater than to lay down one's life for another.

Sin does not win in the case of suicide. But it is not a natural passing.
Having just lost my only remaining parent, I have questions about quality of life
in the end and whether assisted suicide may be a merciful act.

Do I want to go through what my parent went through?
When they passed, my grief was equal to my relief.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Has it been considered that God is not responsible for the choice people make?

Judas chose to suicide (die) Do we hold God responsible and say sin wins?

Why would some choose to die? I would say they have been deceived...yes, tricked into believing suicide is the best option.
If many (as Rev.6 describes) decide death is better (destroying themselves) than facing The Lamb, is God responsible because he has given them choice....I say no.

Judas confessed, 'I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.' But they responded, 'What does that have to do with us? You’re on your own with this.'" Matt 27:4

Consider the extremes! One ridden with guilt while the other party speaking with a seared conscience!

Like Cain, Judas at his core believed what he had done was unforgiveable.

"What is that to us?" But in their own words, they condemn themselves, for it should have mattered to them. Judas betrayed innocent blood; they, too, have condemned innocent blood.

This highlights the hypocrisy and moral blindness of the religious leaders. While they dismiss Judas' guilt, their very actions of condemning Jesus reflect the same injustice. There's an irony in their response, as they fail to see that they are equally guilty of betraying and condemning an innocent man.

Just wasteful lives who made wrong choices and now their fate is sealed.

 

[amigo de christo]

You mean the desire to correct your false teachings, absolutely, yes! And may that correction grow louder and clearer until you turn away from your deceit.

As you already know, my friend , men cannot overcome the truth that does expose their error .
So what to do . PLAY the victim card , make the one speaking truth seem as the agressor , the hater , the controller ,
and he who plays the victim card as the one being oppressed , being targeted .
But do notice what the end goal was , TO silence the TRUTH that exposed their error .
There used to be saying that said if you cannot beat them join them . Stupied saying i know .
But i wrote it for a reason to show us the version of those behind the judge not correct not , play victim card .
For it goes like this .
IF ya cannot beat them , PANDER TO EMOTIONS , play the victim and make them seem as the hater , attacker .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good questions, thanks.
My reference to "sin wins" was in regard to the final judgment.
The sin problem, in my view, is not solved with either Annihilationism or Damnationism.
Only Universalism offers an ultimate solution.

With "free will" already comes the solution of the atonement. (death penalty for sin paid in full)
What is left to resolve are the acts of the individual, the nations and the leaders, both government and religious.

In terms of responsibility, since God is sovereign He is ultimately responsible.
Nothing is out of His control. Sin is on a short leash. God will resolve it. IMHO

Suicide is a personal decision. To be clear, a poor decision. (usually)
No love greater than to lay down one's life for another.

Sin does not win in the case of suicide. But it is not a natural passing.
Having just lost my only remaining parent, I have questions about quality of life
in the end and whether assisted suicide may be a merciful act.

Do I want to go through what my parent went through?
When they passed, my grief was equal to my relief.

Reasoning as does mere man . But when will this generation learn
that GOD cannot be molded into an image that FITS OUR OWN reasonings .
HE IS T RUTH . HIS WORD IS TRUTH , HIS SPIRIT is TRUTH .
GOD is not a man that reasons as DOES a man . SO STOP trying to omit HIS SEVERITY side
and start rather POINTING TO THE ONLY NAME whereby one may be saved . You point to UNIVERSALISM
as the solution , OMITTING the very Judgment of GOD against those who rejected CHRIST
and thus , YOU DONT E VEN POINT TO CHRIST as the ANSWER to the way out of all of this .
Your serverity view of GOD is false ,and thus even your view of His goodness has become totally misguided .
HOW BOUT WE POINT TO JESUS . I MEAN those who BELEIVE ON HIM
sure wont have to worry about damnation , NOW WILL THEY .
But no , not st steven , you continue to point only to a universal false solution
RATHER than the SOLUTION OF GOD which is TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
You need to cease and dissist asap . Return to the HOLY BOOK . and rather than always
trying to UNDERMINE it , READ IT and learn for yourself those lovely scriptures
which are able to make one wise unto salvation through FAITH IN CHRIST . cause many darn sure
have their faith is a jesus that undermines the v ery words and TRUTH OF GOD ALL MIGHTY .
Found in them lovely scripture .
And now a word .
IF anyones jesus contradicts the WORD and words INSPIRED B Y GOD in the lovely scrips .
then know and understand WHY i did not and will not capitilze that other jesus . cause IT DARN sure is not THE JESUS .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Lizbeth @Wrangler @amigo de christo @ProDeo

In Acts 1:18 we have considerable insight into Peter's view of Judas.

Acts 1:18 "Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out."

This phrase reflects Peter's intense loathing of the betrayer, Judas. He was no longer considered worthy of being referred to as anything other than "this man!" Interestingly, the Greek text does not include the word for "man," but simply states "houtok", meaning "this!" This stark phrasing emphasizes Judas's degradation.

"Purchased a field with the reward of iniquity"

It wasn’t the thirty pieces of silver, as mentioned in Matthew 27:6, but rather the proceeds of Judas's theft, referred to in John 12:6. The field was bought before the crucifixion, but Judas's death caused it to be put back on the market. The priests later bought it to serve as a burial ground for Gentiles, as described in Matthew 27:3-8.

WARNING Graphic language follows:

"And falling headlong"

More accurately, this could be translated as "head first" or "head foremost" (Greek: prenēs). In the very possession he had acquired with the blood money, Judas met his untimely end. The phrase suggests that Judas tied the rope around his neck, leaned forward, and allowed the full weight of his body to fall upon his neck. The limb of the tree, weakened, broke (as noted in Matthew 27:5), causing him to plunge headfirst over a precipice into the valley below. It seems likely that the tree he chose was positioned on a cliff overlooking the Valley of Hinnom.

"he burst asunder" — The only occurrence of the word elakesen, which means to burst with a noise, such as of bones breaking beneath a blow.

"in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out" Judas fell in such a way that his intestines (Gr. splagchna: spleen) were exposed, and "poured out." There is here a contrast with his Master, whose "soul was poured out unto death" (Isa 53:12) but his sacrifice led to joy and life, whereas the fatality of Judas resulted in ignominy, shame and death.

For those lacking discernment, the devotion of SteVen and Quiets, driven by a need for the love of Judas, may appear commendable or even praiseworthy. However, their reasoning stems from the misguided sentiments of those who do not truly know the God of the Bible and His righteousness.

There is no passage in all of Scripture that suggests there is any hope for Judas. The only reason these two seek to claim otherwise is to advance the doctrine of universal salvation.

I was sad to see ProDeo had also been deceived by their doctrine.

These are sad days indeed . But i sure did t ry and warn us
due to inclusivians crept in , WE were all being led down to the path of universalism
and even the path that somehow everyones religion knows GOD .
We are being and have been decieved throughout the years as more and more crept into churches .
But let us remember this my friend .
FOR GOD IS TRUE , the devil a liar .
WHEN along came to the serepent and convinced eve
saying surely ye shall not DIE
T ell me , Was it right , OR GOD RIGHT . as death came upon all ever since .
God was .
SO again when JESUS says clearly if one beleives not on me, HE shall die in his sins .
WHEN JESUS says clearly it will b e worse for you than ev er it was for sodom on the day of jugment .
When JESUS says from revelation that all unbelievers will b e cast into the lake of fire
along with satan and etc .
TELL ME , DOES JESUS LIE , NO . ITS THESE MEN who pre ach a big ado about unbeleif
THAT LIE . GOD cannot LIE . JESUS thus cannot LIE . HE IS the TRUTH the way and the Life .
And ye MUST absolutely , AS HE MADE clear and the apostles made clear , BELEIVE ON HIM to BE SAV ED .

 

[quietthinker]

In terms of responsibility, since God is sovereign He is ultimately responsible.
Nothing is out of His control. Sin is on a short leash. God will resolve it. IMHO

Love is vulnerable. Taking this into consideration, God is not in control as it is generally understood.
Love does not force. it allows others the freedom to choose even to his and their own hurt.

Sin and those who insist on clinging to it will come to an end because the rest of creation will see the long suffering and self sacrificing God and be persuaded God has never erred nor will he ever err.

Those who do not choose allegiance to God/ love/ principles of life, will implode (however that comes about....we can see what sin does on our planet) Their nature will distance themselves from life ....no life = death....it's what sin does; it has in itself the seeds of its own destruction.

 

[amigo de christo]

You hold these extreme, unqualified views.

Sin will not rule over you, because you are no longer under the law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

But Romans 6, in its entirety, shows that those who are in Christ are promised salvation, while those who are not will perish.

If you're without Christ, then, yes, sin has the final say! But if you're raised and redeemed in him, sin has lost its power.

It's all about choice...and fate

Tis why it was said
LET WHO SOEVER WILL come and drink of the waters of life .
CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall BELEIVE
whether it be the false gods of them false religions who cannot save
OR THE CHRIST OF GOD WHO DOES SAVE .
JESUS the GLORIOUS HIGH PREIST . Onward in the trenches
for the inclusivists universalists have come to town and do much damage within christendom and unto t he world .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Tis why it was said
LET WHO SOEVER WILL come and drink of the waters of life .
CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall BELEIVE
whether it be the false gods of them false religions who cannot save
OR THE CHRIST OF GOD WHO DOES SAVE .
JESUS the GLORIOUS HIGH PREIST . Onward in the trenches
for the inclusivists universalists have come to town and do much damage within christendom and unto t he world .

@amigo de christo

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
In terms of responsibility, since God is sovereign He is ultimately responsible.
Nothing is out of His control. Sin is on a short leash. God will resolve it. IMHO

Love is vulnerable. Taking this into consideration, God is not in control as it is generally understood.
Love does not force. it allows others the freedom to choose even to his and their own hurt.

While reading this I had a picture of deep sea fishing. The fisherperson lets the fish run, which is a sense of freedom.
But then they reel them in. (consequences)

Sin and those who insist on clinging to it will come to an end because the rest of creation will see the long suffering and self sacrificing God and be persuaded God has never erred nor will he ever err.

That seems to be a short-sighted view. The evangelical view.
It assumes that everyone who has gone into the afterlife understood the evangelical view.

Those who do not choose allegiance to God/ love/ principles of life, will implode (however that comes about....we can see what sin does on our planet) Their nature will distance themselves from life ....no life = death....it's what sin does; it has in itself the seeds of its own destruction.

God is capable of raising the dead and giving life. It doesn't have to be a dead end.
God is in the restoration business.